I am not ashamed of the gospel...

[New Testament Christian]

Again you are missing the point. Everyone that was saved back then was saved by faith in the OT also. They had all kinds of rituals they were commanded to follow, but salvation was still by faith.

"therefore the baptism of Jesus Christ does not save."

Correct, no baptism saves.

Ignorance on display

John the baptist baptism saved,

Since you teach it did not, JESUS' SHED BLOOD DID NOT SAVE

That is consistent with your error of baptism.

Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

To say John's baptism did not save Jews who were baptized is to say Jesus' shed blood does not save those who receive It.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Lol, way to totally miss my point.
It doesn't matter if he was baptized or not.
We know he was not baptized after trusting in Christ.
Again, do you believe infant baptism is sufficient?
Please answer the question.
Martin Luther was supposedly fine with Peasant babies being killed because they weren't baptized.
If one has to be baptized to be saved, you are adding something to faith alone, and I can quote you lots of verses that show faith alone is sufficient.
And you still haven't dealt with the problem of the thief not being baptized with water for salvation. You just dance around it and say 'But, but, he might have been."

Catholic and any other churches that baptize babies need to show us where that was commanded in the new testament. I would like for any church who practises infant baptism to give just one example of a baby being baptized?

The gospel must be understood by the hearer.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing and by hearing the word of God.

Faith is the first condition to being saved.

Now baptism comes after a person understands the gospel and believes it.

So why do false churches baptize unlearned and unbelieving babies?

To baptize a baby is to baptize a child who has no faith.

A baby is without understanding.

Therefore since the child cannot understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. The child is not accountable to it!

All baptizing babies does is get them upset! Poor children! Ignorant adults!!!

You don't baptize someone who has no faith! Romans 10:17

 

[renniks]

Catholic and any other churches that baptize babies need to show us where that was commanded in the new testament. I would like for any church who practises infant baptism to give just one example of a baby being baptized?

The gospel must be understood by the hearer.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing and by hearing the word of God.

Faith is the first condition to being saved.

Now baptism comes after a person understands the gospel and believes it.

So why do false churches baptize unlearned and unbelieving babies?

To baptize a baby is to baptize a child who has no faith.

A baby is without understanding.

Therefore since the child cannot understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. The child is not accountable to it!

All baptizing babies does is get them upset! Poor children! Ignorant adults!!!

You don't baptize someone who has no faith! Romans 10:17

Well we agree on that anyway.

 

[renniks]

Ignorance on display

John the baptist baptism saved,

Since you teach it did not, JESUS' SHED BLOOD DID NOT SAVE

That is consistent with your error of baptism.

Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

To say John's baptism did not save Jews who were baptized is to say Jesus' shed blood does not save those who receive It.

John the Baptist tells us the purpose of his baptisms: “I baptize you with water for repentance.

Christian baptism is a confession of a persons identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
John the Baptist told the crowd that gathered where he was baptizing, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
This Holy Spirit baptism happens at the moment of salvation.

"In Christ ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Not after you perform the ritual of baptism.

 

[New Testament Christian]

John the Baptist tells us the purpose of his baptisms: “I baptize you with water for repentance.

Christian baptism is a confession of a persons identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
John the Baptist told the crowd that gathered where he was baptizing, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
This Holy Spirit baptism happens at the moment of salvation.

"In Christ ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Not after you perform the ritual of baptism.

We both know why you left out Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Long ago my dad had an aunt that was a nazarene preacher. You know what she did with Bible passages she didn't agree with?

She tore those passages out of her Bible!!!

Look, you may try and fool yourself, that all John's baptism is for is repantance. It is for repentance of sins but also it is FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

You probably have already deceived yourself into believing your post about John's baptism being only for repentance.

But, you ain't fooling me into your smoke screen.

I believe every passage in the Bible! Mark 1:4

Now Epheasians 1:13
In whom also you trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

That's it? The entire plan of how God chose to save man is all in this one passage? The whole gospel summed up with one word, believe.

You know the Bible uses the word belief to represent ALL of what man must do to be saved in many passages?

Here's another one for you to think about,
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

There it is again right? The WHOLE gospel in its entirety.

I dont know all of what you believe saves us but I'll tell you what I believe the Bible teaches.

One thing God requires man to do to be saved is repantance, Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Now the Bible does teach we must repent. Some deny this but that is irrelevant because their simply wrong.

You still going to hold to Epheasians 1:13 being the whole gospel of salvation right in that one verse?

The Bible uses Faith as meaning a part represents the whole in many verses.

Synecdoche is what I'm talking about. If you are unfamiliar with this word. Look it up and study it.

Here is an example of a part representing the whole.

You drink coffee. Your drinking coffee at a restaurant.
Your cup runs empty.

You get the waitresses attention. "Miss can I get another cup?"

That phrase "can I get another cup" is an example of Synecdoche.

The cup is a part that represents the whole. You are not asking for another cup. You are asking for what's in the cup.

Heres another.
"Son, take my keys and drive yourself to town and get some milk."

The keys represent the car. Keys are the part that represents the whole car.

Dad's not saying take my keys and drive them to the store.
He's saying take my keys that represent the whole keys,car and drive the car to the store.

Faith is used like this all the time in the Bible.

Epheasians 1:13 is not all that one must do to be saved. The passage nowhere mentions repentance. Nor does it mention confession, Romans 10:9-10.

But believed in Epheasians 1:13 is used as the part that represents the whole gospel of salvation.

So, now you know Epheasians 1:13 is not teaching faith alone is what saves us. Neither is any other passage that only mentions belief or faith. Faith alone is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, Mark 16:15-16

 

[renniks]

We both know why you left out Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Long ago my dad had an aunt that was a nazarene preacher. You know what she did with Bible passages she didn't agree with?

She tore those passages out of her Bible!!!

Look, you may try and fool yourself, that all John's baptism is for is repantance. It is for repentance of sins but also it is FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

You probably have already deceived yourself into believing your post about John's baptism being only for repentance.

But, you ain't fooling me into your smoke screen.

I believe every passage in the Bible! Mark 1:4

Now Epheasians 1:13
In whom also you trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

That's it? The entire plan of how God chose to save man is all in this one passage? The whole gospel summed up with one word, believe.

You know the Bible uses the word belief to represent ALL of what man must do to be saved in many passages?

Here's another one for you to think about,
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

There it is again right? The WHOLE gospel in its entirety.

I dont know all of what you believe saves us but I'll tell you what I believe the Bible teaches.

One thing God requires man to do to be saved is repantance, Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Now the Bible does teach we must repent. Some deny this but that is irrelevant because their simply wrong.

You still going to hold to Epheasians 1:13 being the whole gospel of salvation right in that one verse?

The Bible uses Faith as meaning a part represents the whole in many verses.

Synecdoche is what I'm talking about. If you are unfamiliar with this word. Look it up and study it.

Here is an example of a part representing the whole.

You drink coffee. Your drinking coffee at a restaurant.
Your cup runs empty.

You get the waitresses attention. "Miss can I get another cup?"

That phrase "can I get another cup" is an example of Synecdoche.

The cup is a part that represents the whole. You are not asking for another cup. You are asking for what's in the cup.

Heres another.
"Son, take my keys and drive yourself to town and get some milk."

The keys represent the car. Keys are the part that represents the whole car.

Dad's not saying take my keys and drive them to the store.
He's saying take my keys that represent the whole keys,car and drive the car to the store.

Faith is used like this all the time in the Bible.

Epheasians 1:13 is not all that one must do to be saved. The passage nowhere mentions repentance. Nor does it mention confession, Romans 10:9-10.

But believed in Epheasians 1:13 is used as the part that represents the whole gospel of salvation.

So, now you know Epheasians 1:13 is not teaching faith alone is what saves us. Neither is any other passage that only mentions belief or faith. Faith alone is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, Mark 16:15-16

I see a lot of dancing but I don't see you addressing what I said. BTW why else does one repent if it isn't for forgiveness?
I never said anything about that.
Yes faith is more than simply believing. It's trusting and repenting and believing. On what? Not on the water! I have more to say but later gotta run.

 

[New Testament Christian]

I see a lot of dancing but I don't see you addressing what I said. BTW why else does one repent if it isn't for forgiveness?
I never said anything about that.
Yes faith is more than simply believing. It's trusting and repenting and believing. On what? Not on the water! I have more to say but later gotta run.

I did not address your post?

What you need to address is Mark 1:4 ....FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

You have completely ignored Mark's teaching of the mode of John the Baptist's baptism.


Yes, you are correct that John's baptism is for repentance.

But you reject the mode of how the Jews were commanded to repent!!!

Did John say now listen up all my brethren!
You pray to God right now for Repentance of sin for the forgiveness of your sins? No, that not what John was preaching.

John taught a WATER BAPTISM FOR REPENTANCE TO HAVE YOUR SINS FORGIVEN.

You see this baptism like this:
The Jews repent of their sins. Now their saved. Then they get baptized by John because their sins are already removed.

That is not the purpose of the water immersion in John's baptism.

John taught that the immersion itself washed away their sins!

If they did not obey this command to be baptized they would not have repented!!! They must go together as God arranged it.

If they only confessed their sins to one another but did not get the baptism. They would be disobeying Gods command. Not one jew would receive forgiveness of their sins if they were not baptized.

John's baptism is FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

 

[renniks]

John taught that the immersion itself washed away their sins!

Ok so there we finally have what you actually teach, that water saves. Thanks for finally being honest about it.

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; Rom. 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Rom. 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

The people that John baptized, if they were saved were saved by faith in the coming Messiah. Not by the water!

 

[New Testament Christian]

Ok so there we finally have what you actually teach, that water saves. Thanks for finally being honest about it.

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; Rom. 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Rom. 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

The people that John baptized, if they were saved were saved by faith in the coming Messiah. Not by the water!

You think I'm trying to hide water baptism washes away our sins? Acts 22:16.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the jew first and also to the greek.

Water does save. You do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1Peter 3:20-21
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing, wherein few that is, eight souls WERE SAVED BY WATER.

The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

How does water baptism save us according to Peter? By the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

You try to seperate water immersion from the gospel that saves us.

Jesus commands water baptism as an act of obedience.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THE WATER BY ITSELF HAS POWER TO TAKE AWAY OUR SINS.

It is by obeying Jesus Christ that the act of baptism saves us by Receiving Gods grace. Gods grace includes contact with the cleansing blood of Christ.

It is His blood that cleanses us. And we only can get access to His blood if we believe and obey His gospel, Mark 16:15-16.

The whole gospel includes water immersion in order to obtain salvation.

Water only cannot save anyone.

But obeying the gospel gives us access to Jesus' blood.

If you do not obey God and get baptized you have not obeyed Jesus' gospel. Therefore you cannot get access to His blood.

Acts 2:38 teaches we must repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

The people John baptized could not have been saved if they did not believe Gods message aka John the baptist.

They also could not be saved by God if they refused to be saved in the way He arranged their salvation to occur, Mark 1:4.

Those who have Biblical faith believe in God and His word. True faith obeys the command to be baptized.

By faith and obedience to His will, word, gospel is how He chose to save all of mankind,

Hebrews 5:8-9
Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered

And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him.

Nothing alone saves!!!

Water alone cannot save!

Belief alone cannot save!

Works of obedience alone cannot save!

Repentance alone cannot save!

Confession alone cannot save!

Complete submission, faith and obedience to Gods will, His gospel plan of salvation saves.

You only believe some of the gospel but reject all of the gospel. For you do not believe the words of Jesus, Mark 16:15-16.

You believe that repentance saves.
Therefore you are ignorantly believing that works play a part in salvation. You do not really believe in belief alone, sola fide.

 

[renniks]

Water does save. You do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's not what you said before.

 

[renniks]

The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

What saves? Not the water as this verse clearly states, but having a clear conscience towards God! I never understood why the water saves people use this verse, it so obviously refutes you.

 

[renniks]

You believe that repentance saves

Actually, no. God alone does all the work of salvation. I agree there's a condition of faith. I'm not even sure that I would say that repentance is a condition. I think it's a result of a contrite heart. But I don't recall every one who is saved in scripture repenting right then. I think the reason John preached repentance was to prepare hearts to be ready to receive the fact that the Messiah was among them. If you are going to say obedience saves you have a tough row to hoe because no one is always obedient. So only some obedience saves?
No, God saves by grace through faith, period.

 

[New Testament Christian]

What saves? Not the water as this verse clearly states, but having a clear conscience towards God! I never understood why the water saves people use this verse, it so obviously refutes you.

Slap forehead!

1Peter 3:20-21
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls WERE SAVED BY WATER.

The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

Now what saved Noah and his family?

Eight souls were saved by water.

Peter is comparing Noah being saved by water with what?

The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US...

Water saved Noah.

The like figure is water baptism.

What doth also now save us?

Water baptism.

Peter uses water both times to teach what saved them and what saves us.

Those who accept and believe the gospel, Mark 16:15-16
have a good conscience toward God.

Unfortunately your conscience has been hardened towards Jesus' gospel, Mark 16:15-16

 

[New Testament Christian]

Actually, no. God alone does all the work of salvation. I agree there's a condition of faith. I'm not even sure that I would say that repentance is a condition. I think it's a result of a contrite heart. But I don't recall every one who is saved in scripture repenting right then. I think the reason John preached repentance was to prepare hearts to be ready to receive the fact that the Messiah was among them. If you are going to say obedience saves you have a tough row to hoe because no one is always obedient. So only some obedience saves?
No, God saves by grace through faith, period.

Actually, no. God alone does all the work of salvation. I agree there's a condition of faith. I'm not even sure that I would say that repentance is a condition. I think it's a result of a contrite heart. But I don't recall every one who is saved in scripture repenting right then. I think the reason John preached repentance was to prepare hearts to be ready to receive the fact that the Messiah was among them. If you are going to say obedience saves you have a tough row to hoe because no one is always obedient. So only some obedience saves?
No, God saves by grace through faith, period.

What do you believe repentance is?

The scriptures teach we must repent of sins.

That is a change of course. We must do this. Therefore it is a work on our part. God does not do the repenting for us.

Commandments must be OBEYED.

When we obey any command we are doing works.

There are commandments in the gospel that we must obey to be saved.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now COMMANDETH ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.

You must believe and obey the gospel to be saved.

If God requires you to obey to be saved.

Then logically you should understand that it is possible for all to obey.

God would not give us a gospel that is impossible for man to accomplish.

This has nothing to do with sinless perfection.

 

[renniks]

Slap forehead!

1Peter 3:20-21
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls WERE SAVED BY WATER.

The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

Now what saved Noah and his family?

Eight souls were saved by water.

Peter is comparing Noah being saved by water with what?

The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US...

Water saved Noah.

The like figure is water baptism.

What doth also now save us?

Water baptism.

Peter uses water both times to teach what saved them and what saves us.

Those who accept and believe the gospel, Mark 16:15-16
have a good conscience toward God.

Unfortunately your conscience has been hardened towards Jesus' gospel, Mark 16:15-16

Oh I see your issue. You don't understand the verse because you are probably using the KJV.

This phrase says they were saved “through water,” not by water... yet water could drown them. The ark actually saved them. The same water that held up the ark drowned unbelievers. They were actually saved from the water by the ark.
Baptism is an analogy for death and resurrection. The resurrection is what saves us from the water ( death) so there's no sense in which we are saved by the water. It's merely a symbol.

 

[renniks]

What do you believe repentance is?

The scriptures teach we must repent of sins.

That is a change of course. We must do this. Therefore it is a work on our part. God does not do the repenting for us.

Commandments must be OBEYED.

When we obey any command we are doing works.

There are commandments in the gospel that we must obey to be saved.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now COMMANDETH ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.

You must believe and obey the gospel to be saved.

If God requires you to obey to be saved.

Then logically you should understand that it is possible for all to obey.

God would not give us a gospel that is impossible for man to accomplish.

This has nothing to do with sinless perfection.

So... it's a command to repent and do we obey all God's commands, all the time? Again repentance can lead to a softened heart. It's not what saves us, however. No work saves us.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Oh I see your issue. You don't understand the verse because you are probably using the KJV.

This phrase says they were saved “through water,” not by water... yet water could drown them. The ark actually saved them. The same water that held up the ark drowned unbelievers. They were actually saved from the water by the ark.
Baptism is an analogy for death and resurrection. The resurrection is what saves us from the water ( death) so there's no sense in which we are saved by the water. It's merely a symbol.

Wrong, the Greek says water saved them.

Does Peter say,

The like figure wereunto even the ark now doth save us.

Hahaha

Now what you dont understand about the water is it brought the ark up!

God destroyed the world.

Noah was DELIVERED from the world by the water!

It brought Noah out of the world that was destroyed.

The Bible teaches water saved Noah. I suggest you believe the Bible.

 

[New Testament Christian]

That's not what you said before.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Water alone does not save

 

[New Testament Christian]

So... it's a command to repent and do we obey all God's commands, all the time? Again repentance can lead to a softened heart. It's not what saves us, however. No work saves us.

Are you not aware that if you do not obey all of Gods commandments you are lost?

1John 2:4-5
He that saith, I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.

But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know that we are in Him.

You have strange beliefs.

Why do you have this belief that you cannot obey all of His commandments?

The scriptures not only teach you can but that if you dont you are not in God and God is not in you.

Logically we should realize God would not give us commandments we could not do.

That would be unfair of God to command us to obey something that He knew we were incapable of accomplishing.

And since commandments like repentance something we must obey.

Every commandment we do, we are doing a work of obedience.

So, you do not believe works are not part of being saved.
You ignorantly do believe that we must obey Gods commandment to repent. You don't realize you believe in faith and works is required to be saved.

Nothing wrong with works since God is the one who put them in His gospel.

God has no meritorious works in salvation. Only works of obedience.

 

[New Testament Christian]

So... it's a command to repent and do we obey all God's commands, all the time? Again repentance can lead to a softened heart. It's not what saves us, however. No work saves us.

I love you renniks. I'm hittin the hay, goodnight