I am non-denominational and gf is Adventist. Can we have a happy marriage?

[ryaneda]

Hi, I will try and keep this short here and I would REALLY appreciate some feedback from everyone and ESSPECIALLY from actual married couples between non-dom and adventist. The crazy thing is... I can't find ANY! It looks like it doesn't happen much.
Okay, so basically my girlfriend and I have been dating for 19months now. We have been talking alot about marriage and we are running into issues here... *Side note* we talked about faith and church when we first started going on dates and we both misunderstood the practical side to everything. She said "Well, we can find a church we both enjoy" amongst other conversations, which led me to believe, find a church as a non-dom. ONly because she was going with me every sunday and then she would go to her church off and on, on saturdays. Some weeks, we went to the beach or camping or hiking on saturdays. Anyways, I do not believe the OT covenant sabbath should be required of NT "New covenant" gentiles. She believes the 10 Commandments are everlasting and I believe the cerimonal law of the 10 are abolished on the cross and the moral law is still commanded of us. With all of that being said... I am not seeing how this would work, considering adventist slander sunday church goers as being lost and... well... taking the mark of the beast. At the minimun, they believe that if you were told the truth, then to continue on sunday, is sinning. How do I marry someone who attends a church that says thing like that (among alot of other things I disagree with)? Btw I talked with pastors at the Adventist church to clarify some of my misunderstandings, and I would have to say I agree with these statements I have made. I am not willing to switch and neither is she. Any advice or any couples been through this SAME type of thing?

 

[tturt]

The 10 are in the NT - just not grouped together as in the OT.

 

[ryaneda]

Yeah, I agree. I believe the way they are applied in the new covenant is different then in the old. NO longer being under the law but rather the law being a schoolmaster or shadow of who is to come, which is Jesus. I am sorry I am not really lookingat debating right now. I mean no offense by that! just looking for guidance on if our marriage who be hindered to a point where, we are both not serving God in the way He has called us to. Just want to hear opinions on this type on inter-denominational marriage. Hopefully from actual married couple or anyone with experience on this EXACT or Very similar situation. If there are any adventist or non-dom that has gone through this or is going through this.

 

[miamited]

Hi ryaneda,

A successful godly marriage begins with two people whose love for God is greater than their love for each other. God has never issued a command telling believers in His Son what day they should come together to worship Him. The command to honor the Sabbath is to rest, not worship. So, you can worship with her on Saturday or she can worship with you on Sunday and you will both be honoring God in your worship. Paul was fairly clear in his instruction that our arguing over one day being more special than another is pointless.

Secondly, the head of a marriage is the husband. Yes, this will be a test. Does your wife's love for God and His truth also cause her to see and understand her responsibilities in the marriage? Does your love for God likewise cause you to see and understand your responsibilities in the marriage? If the answer to either of those questions is no, then yes, I would agree that the time for marriage is not yet.

I would certainly agree that this is an issue that should be worked out before you commit to each other in marriage. Growing up a family that is divided in what each believes is the truth, is a recipe for danger. Not that it necessarily will fail, but the Scriptures also warn that a house divided cannot stand. So, your first test of marriage compatibility has come. Will the two of you be able to resolve it in the way that God expects? James writes to us that if any of us lacks wisdom, go to God. Ask of Him for wisdom and discernment. Are you both willing to put this issue to that test? To sit down both together and separately and ask God for the wisdom that you need in making this decision?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[ryaneda]

Hi ryaneda,

A successful godly marriage begins with two people whose love for God is greater than their love for each other. God has never issued a command telling believers in His Son what day they should come together to worship Him. The command to honor the Sabbath is to rest, not worship. So, you can worship with her on Saturday or she can worship with you on Sunday and you will both be honoring God in your worship. Paul was fairly clear in his instruction that our arguing over one day being more special than another is pointless.

Secondly, the head of a marriage is the husband. Yes, this will be a test. Does your wife's love for God and His truth also cause her to see and understand her responsibilities in the marriage? Does your love for God likewise cause you to see and understand your responsibilities in the marriage? If the answer to either of those questions is no, then yes, I would agree that the time for marriage is not yet.

I would certainly agree that this is an issue that should be worked out before you commit to each other in marriage. Growing up a family that is divided in what each believes is the truth, is a recipe for danger. Not that it necessarily will fail, but the Scriptures also warn that a house divided cannot stand. So, your first test of marriage compatibility has come. Will the two of you be able to resolve it in the way that God expects? James writes to us that if any of us lacks wisdom, go to God. Ask of Him for wisdom and discernment. Are you both willing to put this issue to that test? To sit down both together and separately and ask God for the wisdom that you need in making this decision?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Thanks Ted, I apperciate that. I think we are planning to go to couples counseling or marriage counseling within this month. This is because her and I have talked and at this point we need someone to mediate for us and Hopefully stir up questions to ask ourselves and each other. If we love each other, How do that work with going to separate churches. As I mentioned before, I have been to adventist church multiple times with her, and they do not look kindly on sunday worshipers. They say they are mislead and misguided and are sinning. Not to mention Ellen G. White and the false teaching. I am sorry if you are an adventist and read this!!! I just disagree, BUT mean no disrespect!

 

[Albion]

Hi, I will try and keep this short here and I would REALLY appreciate some feedback from everyone and ESSPECIALLY from actual married couples between non-dom and adventist. The crazy thing is... I can't find ANY!

That's what I was thinking.

Okay, so basically my girlfriend and I have been dating for 19months now. We have been talking alot about marriage and we are running into issues here... *Side note* we talked about faith and church when we first started going on dates and we both misunderstood the practical side to everything. She said "Well, we can find a church we both enjoy" amongst other conversations, which led me to believe, find a church as a non-dom. ONly because she was going with me every sunday and then she would go to her church off and on, on saturdays. Some weeks, we went to the beach or camping or hiking on saturdays. Anyways, I do not believe the OT covenant sabbath should be required of NT "New covenant" gentiles. She believes the 10 Commandments are everlasting and I believe the cerimonal law of the 10 are abolished on the cross and the moral law is still commanded of us. With all of that being said... I am not seeing how this would work, considering adventist slander sunday church goers as being lost and... well... taking the mark of the beast. At the minimun, they believe that if you were told the truth, then to continue on sunday, is sinning. How do I marry someone who attends a church that says thing like that (among alot of other things I disagree with)? Btw I talked with pastors at the Adventist church to clarify some of my misunderstandings, and I would have to say I agree with these statements I have made. I am not willing to switch and neither is she. Any advice or any couples been through this SAME type of thing?

Adventists are typically legalistic and firmly committed to the positions taken by their church. Of course, so are some other denominations. The opportunity for friction does, therefore, exist.

However, there are all sorts of mixed marriages which do work out just fine because the parties understand--and are willing to live with--the fact that the partner knows what the other one believes and why that's so...and respects it. In other words, there's no issue of one member not knowing what and why his or her spouse believes as he does, which can lead to ongoing attempts to convert him. But this varies with the person.

If the two people can "live and let live" like this, it is entirely possible to have a happy marriage with each of the two following his own faith. From what you wrote, your girlfriend has shown evidence that she might be of this mindset.

What you have to do, therefore, is be very straight with each other and discover whether or not it would be an ongoing source of dissatisfaction for either of you to practice your own faiths and not belong to one church together.

Personally, I am dubious about the "counseling" approach since this sounds to me like a way to get one or the other party to yield. The way to a happy marriage--in your case, and in my opinion based on what you've told us here--is to see if both of you can abide the other having his and her own faith unchallenged by the spouse. This logically would include such non-denominational but important matters as what religious training to impart to the kids and whether you'll each engage in some of the observances of the other or just stay out of it. But if you do go to counseling, choose an unbiased counselor not affiliated with any church either of you is interested in, and make the point of it how to be mutually accepting without belonging to the same church. Do not make it about whose theology is correct.

 

[miamited]

Thanks Ted, I apperciate that. I think we are planning to go to couples counseling or marriage counseling within this month. This is because her and I have talked and at this point we need someone to mediate for us and Hopefully stir up questions to ask ourselves and each other. If we love each other, How do that work with going to separate churches. As I mentioned before, I have been to adventist church multiple times with her, and they do not look kindly on sunday worshipers. They say they are mislead and misguided and are sinning. Not to mention Ellen G. White and the false teaching. I am sorry if you are an adventist and read this!!! I just disagree, BUT mean no disrespect!

Hi ryaneda,

It sounds troubling to me. However, you're talking to a man who has been married four times and never really looked for a godly wife among the lot. Wasn't born again until several years after marrying wife number four. But...

Now, as a born again believer, I have studied this issue of a godly marriage and while I'm not convinced that I personally have one, I'm pretty confident in understanding what God says is one. Many, many 'christians' get their underwear all knotted up when someone speaks about how God talks about submission within a marriage. After all, we live in an age where the mantra is that a woman can do anything a man can. Fine! I don't doubt that. But God, in establishing marriage and speaking on the subject, lays out the roles of each party to a marriage. When He speaks of submission He isn't at all asking the woman to just sit back and be a door mat. He doesn't mean that a man gets to tell his wife what to do and come hell or high water that's what will be done. It also isn't something that the husband can 'make' the wife do. She has to want to be a godly wife and live under the headship of her husband and understand that there are times in a marriage when there will be disagreements and as well as it is within her power, when those times come and the issue is not some issue of grave sin, then she willingly and joyfully submits to the authority of her husband because she loves and trusts him. A husband is not to misuse this authority. He also, because he loves and cherishes his wife, must allow her to be heard and to try and understand her position. However, when the time comes that a decision must be made and there is still not acknowledged agreement, then it is the godly wife's duty to understand that her husband is the head of their household. His decisions do hold some greater sway in what the final decision is.

The Scriptures give several examples of this. The best one being that wives are to submit to their husbands. Paul also says that a wife should go to her husband to ask questions about the things of God. However, all of this is based on the foundation that the husband is likewise a godly man. Too many husbands try to call up these instructions in order to be overbearing on their wives because they think that God is telling them that in all things what they say goes.

So, question: Does your girlfriend agree that worshiping God on Sunday is a sin? If she does, then she thinks that you are leading her into sin and therefore has a right not to submit in this instance. The two of you need to sit down and discuss this issue from that perspective. Does she agree with her fellowship's teaching? If the two of you can't come to agreement in this, then I'd strongly recommend that you set any plans for marriage on hold. Parents with two sets of beliefs can be confusing for children. For a godly marriage it's ok that you don't agree on the best colors to paint the walls or what kind of car you're going to buy. But the truth of God and agreement on such between the marriage partners is of utmost importance.

Be in prayer, just as James has told us. Ask God for wisdom.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

BTW, it might be a good idea to have her sit down and read the commandment. The commandment says that on the seventh day, the Sabbath, that one rests and allows all those in their household to also rest. Now the adventists then turn the pages over to where God does call Israel to hold a Holy convocation. However, it might be a good idea for the two of you to do a study on what exactly a 'Holy convocation' means. God commands Israel to hold a number of Holy convocations many times throughout the year.

In Exodus 12:16 God calls for Israel to be in Holy convocation on both the first and the seventh day. These are in the instructions to them regarding the keeping of the Passover as a reminder from generation to generation of all that God has done in bringing the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt. Does you wife's fellowship honor this command?

In Leviticus 23:3-21 God calls Isreal to hold a Holy convocation in regards to the feast days. Does your wife's fellowship also meet to worship on these days?

In Leviticus 23:24 God commands Israel to have a Holy convocation on the first day of the seventh month. This, of course, would mean that her fellowship would have to know the Jewish calendar to even know when the first day of the seventh month is, but do they worship also on that day?

My point being that God's commands to Israel in having days termed as 'Holy convocations' is not something that has been, nor I believe was expected, to be passed over to the believers whose faith rests in the work of Jesus. So, it might be a good idea for the two of you to really sit down in prayerful study and seek to discern exactly what it was and why God commanded Israel to hold Holy convocations on many, many days other than just the seventh day Sabbath. Of course, if it's decided that the Holy convocation on the seventh day Sabbath is a call to worship and must be honored by those who have trusted in Jesus, then what would be the rationale that would then say, "But that's the only Holy convocation we have to keep."

If you're going to keep the law to gain your salvation, you must keep all of it!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[ryaneda]

That's what I was thinking.


Adventists are typically legalistic and firmly committed to the positions taken by their church. Of course, so are some other denominations. The opportunity for friction does, therefore, exist.

However, there are all sorts of mixed marriages which do work out just fine because the parties understand--and are willing to live with--the fact that the partner knows what the other one believes and why that's so...and respects it. In other words, there's no issue of one member not knowing what and why his or her spouse believes as he does, which can lead to ongoing attempts to convert him. But this varies with the person.

If the two people can "live and let live" like this, it is entirely possible to have a happy marriage with each of the two following his own faith. From what you wrote, your girlfriend has shown evidence that she might be of this mindset.

What you have to do, therefore, is be very straight with each other and discover whether or not it would be an ongoing source of dissatisfaction for either of you to practice your own faiths and not belong to one church together.

Personally, I am dubious about the "counseling" approach since this sounds to me like a way to get one or the other party to yield. The way to a happy marriage--in your case, and in my opinion based on what you've told us here--is to see if both of you can abide the other having his and her own faith unchallenged by the spouse. This logically would include such non-denominational but important matters as what religious training to impart to the kids and whether you'll each engage in some of the observances of the other or just stay out of it. But if you do go to counseling, choose an unbiased counselor not affiliated with any church either of you is interested in, and make the point of it how to be mutually accepting without belonging to the same church. Do not make it about whose theology is correct.

I want to thank you and (the other guy commenting)..! I totally see where both of are coming from. Is it okay for me to try and talk from a logical or biblical viewpoint of how I get to my belief? Basically, I am asking, Can I attempt to change her mind (convert) at least once or in any shape or form? Not continually trying to convert, but at least make one attempt to see if she might biblically agree or logically agree? I am by no means an overlording or control freak boyfriend when I ask that question.

 

[miamited]

I want to thank you and (the other guy commenting)..! I totally see where both of are coming from. Is it okay for me to try and talk from a logical or biblical viewpoint of how I get to my belief? Basically, I am asking, Can I attempt to change her mind (convert) at least once or in any shape or form? Not continually trying to convert, but at least make one attempt to see if she might biblically agree or logically agree? I am by no means an overlording or control freak boyfriend when I ask that question.

Hi ryaneda,

Sure. I don't think that God ever holds in dishonor those who share the knowledge of His words, if what is being taught is in alignment with what He is saying.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Albion]

I want to thank you and (the other guy commenting)..! I totally see where both of are coming from. Is it okay for me to try and talk from a logical or biblical viewpoint of how I get to my belief? Basically, I am asking, Can I attempt to change her mind (convert) at least once or in any shape or form? Not continually trying to convert, but at least make one attempt to see if she might biblically agree or logically agree? I am by no means an overlording or control freak boyfriend when I ask that question.

I think the answer is "yes," but I wasn't of the opinion that you had not done this so far. You've been to each other's churches, and so on. But if that's the case, and you haven't really had "the discussion" with your girlfriend, you'll have to have one.

You can't duck the issue of different faiths. You have to arrive at a position of mutual understanding and acceptance. So if you're not there, do have one or more two-way discussions. There's always the possibility of one or the other or both of you deciding to change faiths, but if it doesn't come to that, the key to a happy marriage is to "live and let live," which of course doesn't mean becoming non-religious but just accepting the fact of different faiths the way you'd accept different tastes in food.

 

[ryaneda]

I think the answer is "yes," but I wasn't of the opinion that you had not done this so far. You've been to each other's churches, and so on. But if that's the case, and you haven't really had "the discussion" with your girlfriend, you'll have to have one.

You can't duck the issue of different faiths. You have to arrive at a position of mutual understanding and acceptance. So if you're not there, do have one or more two-way discussions. There's always the possibility of one or the other or both of you deciding to change faiths, but if it doesn't come to that, the key to a happy marriage is to "live and let live," which of course doesn't mean becoming non-religious but just accepting the fact of different faiths the way you'd accept different tastes in food.

Thanks! everyone has been so helpful on this site. I didn't think people were going to actually respond. ha. Alot of good questions and things for us to go through. We pretty much are at odds with this decision at this point, we usually take a few days off to think and then go back into discussing. It has been about three weeks now, with, I would say, good understanding of each other. Yet, I wish we could have more biblical talks about how we have come to our beliefs. BUt I am more worried about avoiding just some debate on these differences. Sometime I want to debate and other times and just want to know her heart. Mostly, know her heart. But we will need to come to a descision soon because I am applying for programs out of the state and her and I are going to need to decide If she will follow me there (whereever I get excepted) or come to an agreement or contiuing to pursue compromises and continue the relationship. I am actually going to post another thread just about that. Basically seeing what to do if we seem rushed to make decisions. We have about 4 months to make a decision at this point. Seems like enough time, I think, But idk.

 

[Albion]

If we're wrapping up, I think it may be important to say again that many "mixed faith" couples have long and happy marriages, so it can be done and it's not something rare.

But you have to get beyond the stage of trying to convince each other that "your" way is right. Let your goal be to get her (and vice-versa, of course) to understand the reasons for your positions, and let it go at that. If you two cannot do that with good cheer, this might turn out to be threatening to your relationship. If you're in love, this should not be asking too much. If you're not, but only hoping it might move in that direction, perhaps it is.

 

[ewq1938]

I am not willing to switch and neither is she. Any advice or any couples been through this SAME type of thing?

According to her beliefs, she would be greatly sinning by accepting you as a husband because you are considered as having taken the mark of the beast etc. It would be her that would struggle if she accepts this is true from her church. You likely would have less concerns about her keeping the Sabbath etc because that generally is not considered sinful. Her church and church friends would be constantly on her about her marriage with you and might force her to do something she may not want to do.

How has the last 19 months been? It should help show what might be in store in the future. Keep in mind the introduction of children might make things harder because which faith will they be taught?

 

[ryaneda]

According to her beliefs, she would be greatly sinning by accepting you as a husband because you are considered as having taken the mark of the beast etc. It would be her that would struggle if she accepts this is true from her church. You likely would have less concerns about her keeping the Sabbath etc because that generally is not considered sinful. Her church and church friends would be constantly on her about her marriage with you and might force her to do something she may not want to do.

How has the last 19 months been? It should help show what might be in store in the future. Keep in mind the introduction of children might make things harder because which faith will they be taught?

Yeah, I just spent some figuring out exactly what SDA believes and I explained that EXACT issue with her. She some reason doesnt seem to follow the SDA church beliefs to a T, so to speak.. She does not give ellen Whites words any authority or inspiration of the holy spirit, nor does she think that sunday church goers are sinning "if they aren't convicted to observe the sabbath". To be honest, I am more confused now about how she would continue with the SDA church, other than her growing up from a baby in the SDA church. I think that she just enjoys all her friends and family in the church, yet I explained, I believe there is false teaching and I will not be apart of it, nor have my children grow up in that church to hear those teachings.

We have been dating since November 2014. I was going to a Bible College in Southern California when we started dating. I finshed there and am now pursuing my career in Physical Therapy. We have had a great relationship and both love each other. She has attended church with me on Sundays since we started dating. I have went with her on Saturdays to the SDA church about 4 times. She doesn't go to SDA church as often as she comes with me to church on Sunday. I am not sure if that is what you're asking. She seems open to attend other church, yet not leave her church. Which I don't understand, based off teachings there. Just her friends going to that church.

 

[ewq1938]

Yeah, I just spent some figuring out exactly what SDA believes and I explained that EXACT issue with her. She some reason doesnt seem to follow the SDA church beliefs to a T, so to speak.. She does not give ellen Whites words any authority or inspiration of the holy spirit, nor does she think that sunday church goers are sinning "if they aren't convicted to observe the sabbath". To be honest, I am more confused now about how she would continue with the SDA church, other than her growing up from a baby in the SDA church. I think that she just enjoys all her friends and family in the church, yet I explained, I believe there is false teaching and I will not be apart of it, nor have my children grow up in that church to hear those teachings.

We have been dating since November 2014. I was going to a Bible College in Southern California when we started dating. I finshed there and am now pursuing my career in Physical Therapy. We have had a great relationship and both love each other. She has attended church with me on Sundays since we started dating. I have went with her on Saturdays to the SDA church about 4 times. She doesn't go to SDA church as often as she comes with me to church on Sunday. I am not sure if that is what you're asking. She seems open to attend other church, yet not leave her church. Which I don't understand, based off teachings there. Just her friends going to that church.

I suspect more time is needed and will reveal what is the best course here. Tell her you love her daily also, just because men tend to be less vocal.

 

[Albion]

Yeah, I just spent some figuring out exactly what SDA believes and I explained that EXACT issue with her. She some reason doesnt seem to follow the SDA church beliefs to a T, so to speak.. She does not give ellen Whites words any authority or inspiration of the holy spirit, nor does she think that sunday church goers are sinning "if they aren't convicted to observe the sabbath". To be honest, I am more confused now about how she would continue with the SDA church, other than her growing up from a baby in the SDA church. I think that she just enjoys all her friends and family in the church, yet I explained, I believe there is false teaching and I will not be apart of it, nor have my children grow up in that church to hear those teachings.

Although SDAs are often thought of as militant, every denomination has its diehards and those who are affiliated but not inclined to take the exclusivist view towards Christians of other persuasions. What I wanted to know was which category your gf falls into. If it's the latter--as seems to be the case--you have a good chance of this working out fine.

But with you having been clear and up front with her about your own beliefs and that you do think the SDA to be erroneous on certain matters such that the idea of you converting is out of the question, I'd say not to argue with success! Don't now press her to disavow her faith or family or friends...now that you basically know that she is amenable to having the two of you hold somewhat different religious views without arguing about it all the time and that you two are in accord about not letting it damage your relationship.

 

[Light of the East]

Hi, I will try and keep this short here and I would REALLY appreciate some feedback from everyone and ESSPECIALLY from actual married couples between non-dom and adventist. The crazy thing is... I can't find ANY! It looks like it doesn't happen much.
Okay, so basically my girlfriend and I have been dating for 19months now. We have been talking alot about marriage and we are running into issues here... *Side note* we talked about faith and church when we first started going on dates and we both misunderstood the practical side to everything. She said "Well, we can find a church we both enjoy" amongst other conversations, which led me to believe, find a church as a non-dom. ONly because she was going with me every sunday and then she would go to her church off and on, on saturdays. Some weeks, we went to the beach or camping or hiking on saturdays. Anyways, I do not believe the OT covenant sabbath should be required of NT "New covenant" gentiles. She believes the 10 Commandments are everlasting and I believe the cerimonal law of the 10 are abolished on the cross and the moral law is still commanded of us. With all of that being said... I am not seeing how this would work, considering adventist slander sunday church goers as being lost and... well... taking the mark of the beast. At the minimun, they believe that if you were told the truth, then to continue on sunday, is sinning. How do I marry someone who attends a church that says thing like that (among alot of other things I disagree with)? Btw I talked with pastors at the Adventist church to clarify some of my misunderstandings, and I would have to say I agree with these statements I have made. I am not willing to switch and neither is she. Any advice or any couples been through this SAME type of thing?

Lose her, dude. There are more fish out there. Google up some stories about mixed marriages and the hell they became once the first child came along. I guarantee - guaaaaaaaaaaroooooooonteeeeeee - that once that baby is born, she will become Mrs. SDA on steroids. Children do that in mixed marriages. And don't forget the in-laws.

I'm serious.....you don't have that much in common except mutual attraction. You will find me and thank me later.

 

[Albion]

While I think that's a pretty strong response, the matter of raising the children is not to be minimized (as others have also said along the way in this thread).

While you gave us some encouraging feedback concerning discussions you've had with the gf, Ryandea, this particular issue is of critical importance. If there's any issue that would make the decision for you against going forward with the relationship, this is probably it.

As for my saying yours was a pretty strong response, I was not thinking of the cautionary tone but, rather, about this kind of wording:

Lose her, dude. There are more fish out there...I'm serious.....you don't have that much in common except mutual attraction

 

[Light of the East]

While I think that's a pretty strong response, the matter of raising the children is important (as others have said along the way in this thread).

While you gave us some encouraging feedback concerning discussions you've had with the gf, Ryandea, you seem to have sidestepped this very important issue. Don't omit to confront it.

Albion - How many times have we seen in the world that people who have been raised in different faiths and are lukewarm at best about them, suddenly become more Catholic than the pope, more charismatic than Jimmy Swaggart, more Anglican than the Archbishop of Canterbury, etc, etc, etc, when the first kid arrives? It can be a real serious bone of contention. And then you throw in the grandparents and there is serious conflict going on.

That's bad enough with reasonable religions, but with the SDA's and their insistence that we are all going to hell as Sunday worshipers.....

really, did you want me to be any less strong, seeing what I see coming down the road for this poor schlub if he does marry this girl?