I am an intrinsically disordered human being...

Michie

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I get that, but I was thinking more along these lines...if you see two people of the same sex sharing public displays of affection, and an overweight person pushing a shopping cart loaded with junk food to the cashier, do you have the same reaction? Do we view not being able to successfully carry the cross and bear the temptation in both cases equally? Or is falling into sin worse in some cases than others?
I think that is the point of the reflection. I don't see one as worse than the other. We all sin & have our struggles. But that's probably my protestantism speaking.

Which struggle is worse?

Who struggles more?

What are the circumstances?

It depends.

But all of it is disordered.
 
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Needing_Grace

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It was a personal reflection that she shared in light of certain events. I get where you re coming from but I don't think it was a comparison but more of a tie in given recent events. Maybe not perfect but you know, I don't expect perfection. The intent was good. It was not a brazenly bigoted reflection as was first implied right down to the word 'tchotchke' being 'xenophobic'.

It's about the intent not how many politically incorrect boo boos you can catch a person in & missing the point completely.

Reminds me of our sue happy society that is just spoiling or a fight.

Well, you should hear me kvetch about having to schlep around the office looking for something to nosh on. ;)
 
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WarriorAngel

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Oooh, goody. Yet another article comparing the life-destroying issue of same-sex attraction to someone's peccadilloes (in this case, gluttony).

The most useful thing written on the link was the following comment:

"A person with a predisposition to overeat who by whatever strategies and efforts does *not* overeat is not a glutton. But according to the Church, a man with a homosexual orientation who forever chaste in both thought and deed is "damaged goods." He may not become a priest, because he can never be a "father type." He also, according to the Church, may be barred from being a coach, a teacher, or from joining the military based on orientation *alone*. "

And this is exactly why I feel I have no place in the Church.

A gay person may become a priest - if he doesnt have 'deep seated' homosexuality.
IE - it's more of who he is rather than loving God.

If this makes sense.
 
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Needing_Grace

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A gay person may become a priest - if he doesnt have 'deep seated' homosexuality.
IE - it's more of who he is rather than loving God.

If this makes sense.

No, it doesn't make sense. What does it mean "deep seated" homosexuality, anyway and how does it differ from being a gay person (which I define as a person with homosexual attractions)?

They're one and the same.

Gay = homosexual attraction = no ministry of Word and Sacrament

Then it makes me wonder, "if not for that, then what is the point if me?"
 
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Fantine

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I think that most of us change when the pain of staying where we are becomes more painful than the pain of changing.

People who belong to twelve step groups have reached that point with their particular areas of difficulty--alcohol, drugs, food, gambling, sex, co-dependency (have I missed any?)

Many gay people haven't reached the point where the pain of inertia supercedes the pain of change.

Just as many people who overeat, occasionally drink alcohol to excess, smoke weed socially, or go to Vegas twice a year aren't at that point, either.
 
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MKJ

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I think whether intrinsically disordered is used in other contexts is probably not that important - its a phrase that is really not all that helpful of itself anyway, and it causes more confusion than enlightenment.

I think that battling gluttony may in fact be more like dealing with same sex attraction than people think, and that is largely because people have a simplistic view of gluttony.

Gluttony for those who really battle with it is not just wanting to eat more than is really good for you, something almost anyone experiences from time to time.

It is also not only over-eating, which a lot of people seem to miss. Bulimia and anorexia are also, in so far as they are sinful, a type of gluttony. Trying to control things - oneself or others - through food is gluttony. Being obsessed with diet - vegetarianism or traditional foods diet or whatever - can be gluttony. Being a food eliteist who will only eat the very best of everything or gives more attention to food than is proper, is being a glutton. Even sins related to immoral food production - factory farming say - could be a function of gluttony (we really need our cheap pork so we abuse nature and animals to get it.)

But back to my original point - people who really struggle with being overweight are very similar to people who have other kinds of eating disorders. Often there are biological issues, there are addiction issues. These problems are very much part of who they are as people, not something extrinsic.

Often they are using food for something other than nutrition - to fill some kind of hole in their lives - affection or control or whatever. It can be at times a kind of self-abuse. This is the definition of using something in a disordered way - just as sex is ordered to procreation, eating is ordered to nutrition.

People with these problems may never be able to eat normally, they may have to count calories or avoid counting calories and make sure they eat enough in an equally artificial way. They may never have a normal body image.

It seems to me that a serious battle with gluttony, much like a serious battle with addiction or many other problems of that nature, have many things in common with a serious battle with homosexual attraction. Of course each has its own character to some extent, because otherwise they would be the same.

This I think should give an idea of what might be meant by not having priests with deep-seated homosexual attractions. It might be very similar to not allowing someone to be a priest that had a serious problem with alcoholism. Well, we do allow addicts to become priests, but there has to be some real sense that the individual has been able to deal with and manage that problem, has faced whatever issues he needs to, and is living in a stable and healthy way.

The same is true with gluttony. I have met a number of good, fat priests. A priest that is actively ill because of those struggles is another issue and no one would think of ordaining someone in that position.
 
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WarriorAngel

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No, it doesn't make sense. What does it mean "deep seated" homosexuality, anyway and how does it differ from being a gay person (which I define as a person with homosexual attractions)?

They're one and the same.

Gay = homosexual attraction = no ministry of Word and Sacrament

Then it makes me wonder, "if not for that, then what is the point if me?"
Difficult to explain... but to put it frankly - deep seated would mean - that's their whole obsession in life.
They do not nor wish to allow grace to change the interior of the heart where it is no longer the pronounced part of who they are - but rather those who overcome this propensity - thru grace - can let it go [so to speak] and not dwell on it like it is their entire purpose to life.

Instead they 'let it go' and really know how to give it to God - and their hearts are able to be transformed into holiness - as occurred with many saints - who lost or never had the desire to 'be' sexual beings - but rather loving of the Lord in all things.

Deep seated - no desire to change or wont change because they cling to desires of the flesh.
SSA - is just an attraction - but it doesnt have to gauge who we are and what our lives could be.

Maybe it is hard to imagine because of bitterness and the graces offered - cannot penetrate because there is anger in the person - and with all sins - pride the grandaddy of all - makes for a shield deflecting it. Humility - contrite humbleness is the 1st step to realizing grace.

But bitterness - has to melt. Instead of pounding on one's own faults - in anger - one must learn to love themselves and their soul - and nourish the soul - the forgotten part of the body that is neither sexual or carnal. It is spiritual.

Focus on the soul - what pleases God - and a lighter heart replaces all the hardness. With that is a bounce in one's step when they let go. And no longer see themselves as anything more than a loved being that God made for a purpose to love and share His eternal heaven with.

We are all after all- made for that purpose - for God to gush His love on for always with Him. To give to us more and more as He finds happiness in His creatures.

For help in that journey - one should read the lives of Saints and how they allowed grace to overcome them and were then able to refuse the world and all the empty promises from satan.
 
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Needing_Grace

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Difficult to explain... but to put it frankly - deep seated would mean - that's their whole obsession in life.
They do not nor wish to allow grace to change the interior of the heart where it is no longer the pronounced part of who they are - but rather those who overcome this propensity - thru grace - can let it go [so to speak] and not dwell on it like it is their entire purpose to life.

Instead they 'let it go' and really know how to give it to God - and their hearts are able to be transformed into holiness - as occurred with many saints - who lost or never had the desire to 'be' sexual beings - but rather loving of the Lord in all things.

Deep seated - no desire to change or wont change because they cling to desires of the flesh.
SSA - is just an attraction - but it doesnt have to gauge who we are and what our lives could be.

I disagree with this because SSA absolutely affects what one's life will be. No Orders. No Matrimony.

It's the unconsecrated single state for life, no choice.

To deny that this affects one's life is denial at best and vain sophistry at worst.

Maybe it is hard to imagine because of bitterness and the graces offered - cannot penetrate because there is anger in the person - and with all sins - pride the grandaddy of all - makes for a shield deflecting it. Humility - contrite humbleness is the 1st step to realizing grace.

But bitterness - has to melt. Instead of pounding on one's own faults - in anger - one must learn to love themselves and their soul - and nourish the soul - the forgotten part of the body that is neither sexual or carnal. It is spiritual.

Focus on the soul - what pleases God - and a lighter heart replaces all the hardness. With that is a bounce in one's step when they let go. And no longer see themselves as anything more than a loved being that God made for a purpose to love and share His eternal heaven with.

We are all after all- made for that purpose - for God to gush His love on for always with Him. To give to us more and more as He finds happiness in His creatures.

For help in that journey - one should read the lives of Saints and how they allowed grace to overcome them and were then able to refuse the world and all the empty promises from satan.

Okay, but let's bear in mind that we can't even take the first step without the help of Divine Grace which Christ merited for us, completely.

For me, this is about having hope (the part that applies what we believe by faith "pro me." It's the part that actually receives and lays hold of the gifts offered by God). I know what to believe but I don't see it as being "for me" because I believe I've missed what I was meant for (Word and Sacrament). Instead, I'm left with a cynical disposition that hears a promise of God and says, "that's for everyone else" and hears about the wrath of God and says, "that's what you have to look forward to!"

So pray for me that I may obtain hope because that's where I'm having real trouble.
 
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WarriorAngel

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There are a lot o folks without choices - when one sees the worldly aspect.
Impotent [eunichs] born that way. Disabled never being able to walk. Blind who will never see a sunset or rise. Deaf who dont hear their mother's voices. Ppl born without limbs. The sterile who can never carry a child in their womb or nurse.

It's all how one lives towards God.
The happiest ppl i ever met were the ones who were functionally disable.

So attitude about the crosses makes the difference in one's choices.

But unlike those suffering in the former examples - you have all your faculties. You can produce children [if it came down to it] - you have been blessed. You just have to look at things in another light.
 
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Needing_Grace

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Difficult to explain... but to put it frankly - deep seated would mean - that's their whole obsession in life.
They do not nor wish to allow grace to change the interior of the heart where it is no longer the pronounced part of who they are - but rather those who overcome this propensity - thru grace - can let it go [so to speak] and not dwell on it like it is their entire purpose to life.

Instead they 'let it go' and really know how to give it to God - and their hearts are able to be transformed into holiness - as occurred with many saints - who lost or never had the desire to 'be' sexual beings - but rather loving of the Lord in all things.

Deep seated - no desire to change or wont change because they cling to desires of the flesh.
SSA - is just an attraction - but it doesnt have to gauge who we are and what our lives could be.

I disagree with this because SSA absolutely affects what one's life will be. No Orders. No Matrimony.

It's the unconsecrated single state for life, no choice.

To deny that this affects one's life is denial at best and vain sophistry at worst.

Think about it: Unconsecrated. Single. For life. No choice.

Maybe it is hard to imagine because of bitterness and the graces offered - cannot penetrate because there is anger in the person - and with all sins - pride the grandaddy of all - makes for a shield deflecting it. Humility - contrite humbleness is the 1st step to realizing grace.

But bitterness - has to melt. Instead of pounding on one's own faults - in anger - one must learn to love themselves and their soul - and nourish the soul - the forgotten part of the body that is neither sexual or carnal. It is spiritual.

Focus on the soul - what pleases God - and a lighter heart replaces all the hardness. With that is a bounce in one's step when they let go. And no longer see themselves as anything more than a loved being that God made for a purpose to love and share His eternal heaven with.

We are all after all- made for that purpose - for God to gush His love on for always with Him. To give to us more and more as He finds happiness in His creatures.

For help in that journey - one should read the lives of Saints and how they allowed grace to overcome them and were then able to refuse the world and all the empty promises from satan.

Okay, but let's bear in mind that we can't even take the first step without the help of Divine Grace which Christ merited for us, completely.

For me, this is about having hope (the part that applies what we believe by faith "pro me." It's the part that actually receives and lays hold of the gifts offered by God). I know what to believe but I don't see it as being "for me" because I believe I've missed what I was meant for (Word and Sacrament) and that angers me. I feel betrayed by that. So, I'm left with a cynical disposition that hears a promise of God and says, "that's for everyone else" and hears about the wrath of God and says, "that's what you have to look forward to!"

So pray for me that I may obtain hope because that's where I'm having real trouble. Scriptural advice is welcome.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Again, NG - you could be a priest - deep seated means those who refuse to see themselves as anything but a man who can act on these impulses injudiciously.

You are in my prayers. But remember to pray for others who thru no choices or faults - have crosses. The disabled, the paralyzed for life, the blind, the deaf, the impotent, the sterile... and so many more i am sure i cannot count.

What sort of scriptures would you like? Edifying?
 
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Needing_Grace

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Again, NG - you could be a priest - deep seated means those who refuse to see themselves as anything but a man who can act on these impulses injudiciously.

Are you sure it also doesn't include the attraction that no measures, except God's sovereign action alone, can mitigate?

You are in my prayers. But remember to pray for others who thru no choices or faults - have crosses. The disabled, the paralyzed for life, the blind, the deaf, the impotent, the sterile... and so many more i am sure i cannot count.

What sort of scriptures would you like? Edifying?
Passages that deal with the issue of the unconsecrated single for life, no choice, as a valid calling and something that God recognizes.

As an aside, I've read the scurrilous opinion by professing Catholics, on CAF and in another comment on FirstThings that a homosexual person living a life of chastity is akin to Cain's offering because a straight giving up marriage is a sacrifice but for the homosexual, it's what's expected. I hope no one here thinks that.
 
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WarriorAngel

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[SIZE=+4]Anxiety in a man's heart weighs it down, but an encouraging word makes it glad.
Proverbs 12:25

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+4]In the day of my trouble I will call on You, for You will answer me. Psalm 86:7

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+4]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+4]Therefore encourage one another and edify one another, just as you are doing.
1 Thessalonians 5:11

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+4]And we earnestly beseech you, brethren, admonish those who are out of line ; encourage the timid and fainthearted, help and give your support to the weak souls, [and] be very patient with everybody 1 Thessalonians 5:14

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+4]Now may the God Who gives the power of patient endurance and Who supplies encouragement, grant you to live in such mutual harmony and such full sympathy with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus. Romans 15:5

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+4]My help comes from the Lord, Who made heaven and earth. He will not allow your foot to slip or to be moved; He Who keeps you will not slumber. Psalm 121:2-3

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+4]For just as Christ's [own] sufferings fall to our lot abundantly, so through Christ comfort is also shared abundantly by us.
2 Corinthians 1:5

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+4]Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely on God; believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely also on Me. John 14:1[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+4]Bear one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it].
Galatians 6: 2
[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+4]Casting the whole of your care on Him, for He cares for you affectionately and cares about you watchfully. 1 Peter 5: 7[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+4]Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, Who loved us and gave us everlasting consolation and encouragement and well-founded hope through His grace (unmerited favor), comfort and encourage your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word. 2 Thessalonians 2: 16-17[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+4]Be still and rest in the Lord; wait for Him and patiently lean yourself upon Him; fret not yourself because of him who prospers in his way, because of the man who brings wicked devices to pass. Psalm 37: 7[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+4]I, even I, am He Who comforts you. Who are you, that you should be afraid of man, who shall die, and of a son of man, who shall be made [as destructible] as grass? Isaiah 51: 12[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+4]Sing for joy, O heavens, and be joyful, O earth, and break forth into singing, O mountains! For the Lord has comforted His people and will have compassion upon His afflicted. Isaiah 49: 13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+4]For though the mountains should depart and the hills be shaken or removed, yet My love and kindness shall not depart from you, nor shall My covenant of peace and completeness be removed, says the Lord, Who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54: 10[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+4]Cast your burden on the Lord and He will sustain you; He will never allow the righteous to be moved (made to fail).
Psalm 55: 22
[/SIZE]
 
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WarriorAngel

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Are you sure it also doesn't include the attraction that no measures, except God's sovereign action alone, can mitigate?
I will say this [i think i said it before] that we do not sin in seeing or knowing - but in enjoying where our minds take us. Delving into a fantasy and enjoying it - or letting ourselves go down the path.

Merely seeing or noticing is not a sin - taking it to limits where we begin to lust in our thoughts is when we sin. Our minds can be trained to avoid this.

And His grace will sustain you - if you ask thru prayer every day to make you conscience of sin and lead your thoughts to things about Him.
Try not to be 'scrupulous.'

Passages that deal with the issue of the unconsecrated single for life, no choice, as a valid calling and something that God recognizes.

As an aside, I've read the scurrilous opinion by professing Catholics, on CAF and in another comment on FirstThings that a homosexual person living a life of chastity is akin to Cain's offering because a straight giving up marriage is a sacrifice but for the homosexual, it's what's expected. I hope no one here thinks that.

:o

No one reads hearts except the Lord [and according to scriptures - Our Lady]
So dont let anyone tell you this is like Cain's offering. Instead - i believe you ought to pray for them - for they know not the trouble they are causing themselves by saying these things.
Have charity - understand they are faulted and need your prayers.

:crossrc:
 
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Needing_Grace

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Actually, I found what I needed, I think...

1 Cor. 7:7-8
I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.

1 Cor 7:32-35
I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Actually, I found what I needed, I think...

1 Cor. 7:7-8
I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.

1 Cor 7:32-35
I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
:thumbsup:

Too many ppl forget about God in these times. Take Him for granted. And being married and having to consider all the worldly things makes for distraction as much as a tv.
 
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MKJ

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Actually, I found what I needed, I think...

1 Cor. 7:7-8
I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.

1 Cor 7:32-35
I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.

There are some people who have suggested that Paul was homosexual, that was the burden he talked about in other passages.

I think there is really not enough information to speculate, but it is certainly possible.
 
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