"I Am a Traditionalist, Therefore I Am"

gzt

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A fantastic article from Aristotle Papanikolaou:

I Am a Traditionalist; Therefore, I Am

His conclusion, if you want a taste of the article:

We should, thus, recognize our common presuppositions; affirm those common presuppositions, especially the dogmas, as ground rules for debate; and we need to stop using words like “traditionalist,” “traditional values,” and “Orthodox morality,” which only obfuscate what we share in common or, at worst, become rhetorical tools for demonization. These words are conversation stoppers, which, for anyone who knows the history of Christianity, is actually antithetical to the living Tradition.
 

buzuxi02

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I dont buy this article. Who cares if one shares the same dogmas? Most protestants accept all of our dogmas so does that mean I'm kindred with a liberal Anglican protestant, or even with an Orthodox inappropriate content star? In fact most people dont know the dogmas and will agree with them because they really could care less about their content.
A person with traditional values and mindset should seek out one of like mind if he is looking to create a family whether they be Christian or not.
 
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dzheremi

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This thread would probably fare better in St. Justin's.

That said, I zeroed in on the following bit from the article:

This argument, however, is still not quite reflective of the reality. How would one describe someone who practices Orthodox Christianity faithfully, accepts the authority of the dogmatic proclamations of the Ecumenical Councils, believes that Jesus is fully divine and fully human, that God became human so that humans can become gods (theosis), and on the basis of these particular “traditional” beliefs argues that discussion and change are possible within the tradition on issues of, say, gender and sexuality? If there is no such thing as traditionless thinking, and if these arguments are being made based on thinking in and through the beliefs of the Orthodox tradition, is this not “Orthodox traditionalism”?

The most obvious answer to this would seem to be that such a person has mixed worldly anthropology with that which has been historically affirmed (better?), as a person may be very traditional in many ways, but have some kind of pet issue or bugbear which they focus on and take very non-traditional approaches to.
 
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ArmyMatt

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his point where he defends his position that deaconesses should be permitted simply because that has nothing to do with the Incarnation is not a strong point. there are more than just deaconesses that we no longer do which have nothing to do with the Incarnation.

when it comes to the Church, what we do or not do is dictated by the Holy Spirit, that's what makes it Holy Tradition. it's not just what we think is appropriate at any given time (as good as our intentions might be).
 
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archer75

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Certainly it happens that people who often refer to the Fathers (at least in a general way) and show a kind of pharisaical attitude towards many little things display little interest in, or even antagonism to, perfectly Orthodox practices that they just personally don't like. And in my opinion, using the term "Orthodoxy" or "Orthodox morality" as a "trick" by which to redefine boundaries and say that Orthodox practices are actually NOT Orthodox hurts our Christian witness and hurts our expression of what we have received.
 
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Varangian Christian

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I cant say anything about the deaconess debate as I am not educated on that issue, and I do not mean to offend or debate anybody because this isn't the proper place, but Id like to give a few of my thoughts.

This article, IMO, is clever wording used to conceal a dangerous message. The poison is abundantly evident here:

This argument, however, is still not quite reflective of the reality. How would one describe someone who practices Orthodox Christianity faithfully, accepts the authority of the dogmatic proclamations of the Ecumenical Councils, believes that Jesus is fully divine and fully human, that God became human so that humans can become gods (theosis), and on the basis of these particular “traditional” beliefs argues that discussion and change are possible within the tradition on issues of, say, gender and sexuality? If there is no such thing as traditionless thinking, and if these arguments are being made based on thinking in and through the beliefs of the Orthodox tradition, is this not “Orthodox traditionalism”?

What an absolutely ridiculous argument. It is entirely possible to hold to this bare minimum of belief and also be a heretic. For a moment lets say instead of the more politically acceptable, but still evil, modern arguments regarding gender and sexuality someone was a racist and argued horrible things about, say, Jews using words from the Church Fathers? Would the author of this article stick up for that guy? I doubt it.

Holy tradition, as I understand it from my studies, is both right belief and right practice. It is the truth, for the Tradition is held by the mind of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit. While the author of this article has tried to use words to spin a trap laden web I do think he makes a valid point in a way. How can there be "traditionalist" and "non-traditionalist" Orthodox? If someone believes in the insanity of a bajillion genders or is in favor of homosexuality then shouldn't they simply be recognized as NOT Orthodox? Im not saying people should be kicked out of the Church right away for holding erroneous beliefs, but if they are found out shouldnt they be instructed to repent and if they refuse then there would be consequences?

What the author is doing in the article, IMO, is creating a rhetorical trap based on semantics to convince people in the Church to be more accepting of modern liberal false ideas and evils under the guise of tolerance and love. Just apply this argument to any heresy in Church history and you see how foolish and dangerous it is. Before the Council of Nicaea the Arians could have used the exact same argument, "don't preach hate! We have the same sacraments as you and follow the Jerusalem council. Focus on what we have in common!".

Really it just comes down to where one is ready to put their foot down, and while the author of this article is mostly focused on female deacons (again, cant talk on this) it is apparent he is in favor of modern liberal views and from everything I have seen once you give an inch to those kind of ideas and the people who champion them they will take a mile and more.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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The traditionalist movement where we look back to the fathers shouldn’t be called traditionalist as we all should be doing that in Orthodoxy. There are some things that are theologumen, but Holy Tradition - what we are required to believe to be Orthodox- isn’t “just” the dogmas at the ecumenical council. If that was the case, then we’d be almost close enough for union with the Roman Catholic Church and many others. Holy Tradition covers much more than “just” the ecumenical councils.

That said, for full disclosure, this is a comment in general about Holy Tradition not regarding specifics of the article. I haven’t had a chance to read it and am starting work now - so I will read the article afterwards. I’ve been reading related articles about this elsewhere though, with the other article (not the one posted here) showing a balanced view imho.
 
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TheLostCoin

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“Public Orthodoxy” should be renamed “Public Heresy”

What are you talking about? Fordham University has only noble intentions by displaying what all Orthodox Christians really, truly believe in - and by no means is using it as a proxy to push subjective, Western “academic” ethics.
 
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All4Christ

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If the dogmas at the ecumenical councils were all we needed to become Orthodox, then my chrismation service confessions would be requiring too much from new members of the Church. I had to confess much more than just the ecumenical councils. Again, just a comment in general.
 
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straykat

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Just a fair warning. This is from Fordham. They're well known to be funded from multiple outside (secular) sources to be the voice that criticizes traditionalism in the church. They even have studies on LGBT rights and female clergy issues in Orthodoxy (not just Orthodoxy per se, but they lump all Eastern churches, such as the Coptic church). Some examples..

British Council Awards Grant to Orthodox Christian Studies Center for LGBTQ Research

Fellowship Supports Renowned Scholar on Women and the Coptic Church

That said, I'm not exactly a "traditionalist" myself. I don't care to LARP as a Russian or Greek. I want a church that is distinctly American.. and beyond. I'd love to see a revival of the Western rite on a wider scale (and/or an Eastern rite that takes on the flavor of these lands). I'd love to see an official "Church of the Gauls", "Church of Anglia", "Church of the Celts". And I'd love to see icons revive the spirit of the earliest Indian or Chinese churches (not that I want Nestorianism, however).
 
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ArmyMatt

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If the dogmas at the ecumenical councils were all we needed to become Orthodox, then my chrismation service confessions would be requiring too much from new members of the Church. I had to confess much more than just the ecumenical councils. Again, just a comment in general.

not only that, but if the dogmas from the Councils were all one needed, then Arianism was only wrong after Nicaea.
 
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All4Christ

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Just a fair warning. This is from Fordham. They're well known to be funded from multiple outside (secular) sources to be the voice that criticizes traditionalism in the church. They even have studies on LGBT rights and female clergy issues in Orthodoxy (not just Orthodoxy per se, but they lump all Eastern churches, such as the Coptic church). Some examples..

British Council Awards Grant to Orthodox Christian Studies Center for LGBTQ Research

Fellowship Supports Renowned Scholar on Women and the Coptic Church

That said, I'm not exactly a "traditionalist" myself. I don't care to LARP as a Russian or Greek. I want a church that is distinctly American.. and beyond. I'd love to see a revival of the Western rite on a wider scale (and/or an Eastern rite that takes on the flavor of these lands). I'd love to see an official "Church of the Gauls", "Church of Anglia", "Church of the Celts". And I'd love to see icons revive the spirit of the earliest Indian or Chinese churches (not that I want Nestorianism, however).
I don’t consider those things to make someone not a traditional Orthodox Christian. Being Orthodox shouldn’t be about the ethnicity of the church. In fact, if we go with the “traditional” pattern of the early church, we can see that St Methodius and St Cyril actually created an entire set of music and translation for Russia when many became Orthodox. Ethnophyletism is condemned as a heresy.

While I don’t have any issues with the Western Rite - I don’t think we should even need a different Rite to take on a “flavor” of the host country, so long as it is within the realm of orthodox praxis. (For example, we could have a form of chant that is “American”, but not a rock concert.). That said, from my past experience as a Pentecostal, the Tridentine Mass is just as foreign to my background (perhaps more) than my experience with the St John Chrysotom liturgy in my OCA parish.


I may be getting controversial here, so to everyone here, please don’t take offense....

In America, we should have an American Orthodox Church, not multiple jurisdictions. We should just be “Orthodox”. We don’t need to adopt the Russian culture to be Orthodox. We don’t need to be Greek. We dont need to be Arabic. No matter the language or ethnicity of the church, we still should identify as just being Orthodox.

I’m a hodge podge of different ethnicities. When it comes to Orthodoxy though, I’m just Orthodox. I don’t think it is wrong to just identify with Orthodoxy without an ethnicity associated to it. I think that is the traditional view.

The diaspora into the West caused some logistical difficulties (in all Western countries), as different groups migrated and retained their culture. Imho, I think this would be an important topic for a pan-Orthodox council in the near future.
 
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straykat

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I’m a hodge podge of different ethnicities. When it comes to Orthodoxy though, I’m just Orthodox. I don’t think it is wrong to just identify with Orthodoxy without an ethnicity associated to it. I think that is the traditional view.

Heh... same here. It's difficult for me to even stand with any single one. I'm a mix of several Asian and Scandi ethnicities. Funnily, I probably *can* act like some variation of Russian (or at least, the Caucasus variety, who were once Soviets, rather than Russian. I think a lot of them were a mix of many cultures too).
 
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TheLostCoin

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The paradox here of course is thw fact that the Third Ecumenical Council and the Fourth Ecumenical Councils specifically (I believe all the Ecumenical Councils, but I need to double check) proclaim that they follow the Unerring Faith of the Blessed Fathers, and prohibit any changes to the Faith, anathematizing all those who do so - what it means to follow the Ecumenical Councils, therefore, is to be Traditional, and follow what has been Traditionally upheld theologically.
 
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TheLostCoin

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I don’t consider those things to make someone not a traditional Orthodox Christian. Being Orthodox shouldn’t be about the ethnicity of the church. In fact, if we go with the “traditional” pattern of the early church, we can see that St Methodius and St Cyril actually created an entire set of music and translation for Russia when many became Orthodox. Ethnophyletism is condemned as a heresy.

While I don’t have any issues with the Western Rite - I don’t think we should even need a different Rite to take on a “flavor” of the host country, so long as it is within the realm of orthodox praxis. (For example, we could have a form of chant that is “American”, but not a rock concert.). That said, from my past experience as a Pentecostal, the Trisagion Mass is just as foreign to my background (perhaps more) than my experience with the St John Chrysotom liturgy in my OCA parish.


I may be getting controversial here, so to everyone here, please don’t take offense....

In America, we should have an American Orthodox Church, not multiple jurisdictions. We should just be “Orthodox”. We don’t need to adopt the Russian culture to be Orthodox. We don’t need to be Greek. We dont need to be Arabic. No matter the language or ethnicity of the church, we still should identify as just being Orthodox.

I’m a hodge podge of different ethnicities. When it comes to Orthodoxy though, I’m just Orthodox. I don’t think it is wrong to just identify with Orthodoxy without an ethnicity associated to it. I think that is the traditional view.

The diaspora into the West caused some logistical difficulties (in all Western countries), as different groups migrated and retained their culture. Imho, I think this would be an important topic for a pan-Orthodox council in the near

Yeah, but the problem there is the Holy and Great Phanar would lose its money in order to support the ecclesiological war against the regressive Russian Imperialists - so good luck.


P.S.
I’ve never heard of a Trisagion Mass - I’ve heard of a Tridentine Mass before though.
 
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All4Christ

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I’ve never heard of a Trisagion Mass - I’ve heard of a Tridentine Mass before though.
Slip of the mind. I was thinking something wasn’t right as I wrote it, but was rushing during a break. Appreciate the correction :)
 
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