I am a Christian but I don't believe in certain biblical concepts

[Wolftone]

This what I do believe;

- There is one creator of the universe and that is God
- He had a son, Jesus Christ who was crucified to atone for my sin
- I believe that there is a Heaven for those that name the name of our saviour
- I believe in the power of sincere prayer (I have had many prayers answered)
- I am guided by the New Testament
- God has transformed my entire life and saved me

This what I have great difficulty believing;

- That the Bible is the inerrant word of God (NT yes, OT Not)
- That our loving, caring God used to be a vengeful merciless deity
- That Noah's built an ark. Surely this must be analogous?
- That the world is only a few thousand years old. Again, surely this is an analogy?
- That God could have condoned the despicable activities of David and others
- That God gets upset if women don't wear hats in church and other nonsense

Despite my disbelief in the OT and other man-made rules masquerading as God's word, God continues to answer most of my prayers and speak to my heart. I am blessed by him and I know that he is with me and my family.

My question is, if God answers my prayers and I feel his presence when I pray, does this mean that I can go on challenging parts of the Bible?

Your views are most welcome!

 

[katerinah1947]

This what I do believe;

- There is one creator of the universe and that is God
- He had a son, Jesus Christ who was crucified to atone for my sin
- I believe that there is a Heaven for those that name the name of our saviour
- I believe in the power of sincere prayer (I have had many prayers answered)
- I am guided by the New Testament
- God has transformed my entire life and saved me

This what I have great difficulty believing;

- That the Bible is the inerrant word of God (NT yes, OT Not)
- That our loving, caring God used to be a vengeful merciless deity
- That Noah's built an ark. Surely this must be analogous?
- That the world is only a few thousand years old. Again, surely this is an analogy?
- That God could have condoned the despicable activities of David and others
- That God gets upset if women don't wear hats in church and other nonsense

Despite my disbelief in the OT and other man-made rules masquerading as God's word, God continues to answer most of my prayers and speak to my heart. I am blessed by him and I know that he is with me and my family.

My question is, if God answers my prayers and I feel his presence when I pray, does this mean that I can go on challenging parts of the Bible?

Your views are most welcome!

Hi,
If God is speaking to your heart then He will tell you this~"I have commanded you to test all things. I have not Commanded you to Know all things."~
If you feel the presence of God, and He Told you to ask that question, then add this to your work. ~Jesus is infinitely infinitely infintely and then some tender and mild.~ God the Father and The Holy Spirit are the same and only by having to hurt some, is it ever done.
Hurts, are protections of the innocent. ~Yet, notice that God lets those who are guilty be totally guilty before doing anything to them.~
Now, if you can prove your points in The Old Testament, from your own proven work, then yes publish that. If you cannot, say nothing until you can.
LOVE,
...Mary P.... ., .... .

 

[hedrick]

This what I do believe;

My question is, if God answers my prayers and I feel his presence when I pray, does this mean that I can go on challenging parts of the Bible?

Your views are most welcome!

I agree with the list of things you have a problem with.

However I caution against the the idea that if God answers your prayers, your belief must be OK. This can lead to a pretty subjective idea of truth. I do see some Biblical support for it. The Bible says that God answers the prayers of his people, and it also speaks of believers having spiritual power. However all religions, even those that I’d consider pretty dubious, think that God answers their prayers. Some of this may be how you know that events are actually an answer from God. And while I am the last one to attribute things to Satan, there are times when it certainly looks like some dark power is active. Together these would make me very cautious about using what you think are answers to prayer as evidence that you’re on the right track theologically.

I do think that Christians experience the presence of God. I can see that someone with a good relationship with Christ would use that as a sign of being acceptable to him. But there are many people who I think are teaching things that are seriously opposed to Jesus’ teachings who also think that are.

I have yet to find an objective test for whether you’re acceptable. By an objective test I mean one that would cause someone who is actually an enemy of God to realize that he is. It is the nature of sin that it clouds our minds. So even though you are quite probably justified to think that you have a good relationship with God, you’ve got to realize that there are people are don’t who think they do too.

As to understanding Scripture, all any of us can do is to pray, and to follow our best judgement. Since this is a Presbyterian group, we are also committed to doing this in community, so that we can check our thoughts with ours who are also committed to Christ, and with the tradition of which we're a part.

You’re doing at least the first part of that.

 

[seekingsolace]

That the Bible is the inerrant word of God (NT yes, OT Not)

Jesus confirmed the Old Testament, as did the Authors of the NT with many references.

- That our loving, caring God used to be a vengeful merciless deity

Read the OT carefully and you will see that's an error.

- That God could have condoned the despicable activities of David and others

No person is without sin; their records are testament to that. This doesn't change the deeds they did and their faith and relationship with God. Condoning and forgiveness are two very different things.

- That God gets upset if women don't wear hats in church and other nonsense

Como???

My question is, if God answers my prayers and I feel his presence when I pray, does this mean that I can go on challenging parts of the Bible?

I don't imagine God would appreciate being referred to as a 'vengeful merciless deity!'.

All the best!

I'm sure my post was edited, watching you admins...

 

[Wolftone]

I agree with the list of things you have a problem with.

However I caution against the the idea that if God answers your prayers, your belief must be OK. This can lead to a pretty subjective idea of truth. I do see some Biblical support for it. The Bible says that God answers the prayers of his people, and it also speaks of believers having spiritual power. However all religions, even those that I’d consider pretty dubious, think that God answers their prayers. Some of this may be how you know that events are actually an answer from God. And while I am the last one to attribute things to Satan, there are times when it certainly looks like some dark power is active. Together these would make me very cautious about using what you think are answers to prayer as evidence that you’re on the right track theologically.

I do think that Christians experience the presence of God. I can see that someone with a good relationship with Christ would use that as a sign of being acceptable to him. But there are many people who I think are teaching things that are seriously opposed to Jesus’ teachings who also think that are.

I have yet to find an objective test for whether you’re acceptable. By an objective test I mean one that would cause someone who is actually an enemy of God to realize that he is. It is the nature of sin that it clouds our minds. So even though you are quite probably justified to think that you have a good relationship with God, you’ve got to realize that there are people are don’t who think they do too.

As to understanding Scripture, all any of us can do is to pray, and to follow our best judgement. Since this is a Presbyterian group, we are also committed to doing this in community, so that we can check our thoughts with ours who are also committed to Christ, and with the tradition of which we're a part.

You’re doing at least the first part of that.

Thanks for your response!

God seems to be with me most of the time. Prayers are certainly answered uncannily accurately.

Example 1 - I wasn't getting on in work. I was busting my targets and doing well up until the point I discovered my boss and his secretary in an inappropriate embrace and clearly cheating on their families. Everything changed from then on and I had to leave. I prayed to God that he would find me a position within an industry that I knew and also in a Christian company. He did that without me looking. I had a call from a man that I had spoken with three years earlier and he offered me a job....he and his family are also strong Presbyterians.

Example 2 - This is a silly one but shows how God works in answering small prayers. My daughter was being bullied in school by a particular boy with behavioral issues. Both me and my wife prayed and a couple of days later, I asked how my daughter was getting on with the bully. I was staggered to hear that she and the bully were now OK. He had come up to her without prompting and told her that he was sorry and had been wrong. How about that for divine intervention?

There are loads of other examples I could give but I know God works in my life if I ask him for direct help. I am not sure that our microscopic interpretation of his word pleases him or not. I am convinced that our salvation comes from just trusting and believing him and not trying to second guess him and tripping ourselves up in the minutiae of the Bible.

I think that if I speak with him every day, ask for his forgiveness and help and do my level best to follow Christs's example, that all I need to do.

It's working for me so far. I visualise Jesus hanging there with the weight of my sin on his shoulders and boy, am I ever grateful!

 

[katerinah1947]

Thanks for your response!

God seems to be with me most of the time. Prayers are certainly answered uncannily accurately.

Example 1 - I wasn't getting on in work. I was busting my targets and doing well up until the point I discovered my boss and his secretary in an inappropriate embrace and clearly cheating on their families. Everything changed from then on and I had to leave. I prayed to God that he would find me a position within an industry that I knew and also in a Christian company. He did that without me looking. I had a call from a man that I had spoken with three years earlier and he offered me a job....he and his family are also strong Presbyterians.

Example 2 - This is a silly one but shows how God works in answering small prayers. My daughter was being bullied in school by a particular boy with behavioral issues. Both me and my wife prayed and a couple of days later, I asked how my daughter was getting on with the bully. I was staggered to hear that she and the bully were now OK. He had come up to her without prompting and told her that he was sorry and had been wrong. How about that for divine intervention?

There are loads of other examples I could give but I know God works in my life if I ask him for direct help. I am not sure that our microscopic interpretation of his word pleases him or not. I am convinced that our salvation comes from just trusting and believing him and not trying to second guess him and tripping ourselves up in the minutiae of the Bible.

I think that if I speak with him every day, ask for his forgiveness and help and do my level best to follow Christs's example, that all I need to do.

It's working for me so far. I visualise Jesus hanging there with the weight of my sin on his shoulders and boy, am I ever grateful!

Hi,
Okay, like, Wow!
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[GillDouglas]

- That God gets upset if women don't wear hats in church and other nonsense
Como???
​

This is referring to head coverings. This is not as common a practice as it was years ago. It comes from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. In chapter 11 verses 2 - 16 he writes (paraphrasing): The head of every man is Christ, the head of every wife is her husband. A man should not wear a head covering while praying but a wife should. "For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."

There is recently a movement made to bring back this practice. http://www.headcoveringmovement.com/

 

[Architeuthus]

- That our loving, caring God used to be a vengeful merciless deity

The OT does not say that.

- That Noah's built an ark. Surely this must be analogous?

Why?

- That the world is only a few thousand years old. Again, surely this is an analogy?

Many Christians don't believe that the world is only a few thousand years old.

- That God could have condoned the despicable activities of David and others

God didn't. He sent a prophet to tell David how wrong he'd been.

- That God gets upset if women don't wear hats in church and other nonsense

That relates to the Corinthians passage already mentioned. There is considerable debate as to what that passage is about.

 

[Pammalamma]

First of all, I think God answers prayers for everyone, regardless of their beliefs. God doesn't answer your prayers because you are "good" or "right," but because He's good.

Imagine an atheist, stranded on a raft in the middle of the ocean, who prays, "God, if you exist, please save me!" Isn't God going to answer that prayer? I think He probably would, but not because the atheist's beliefs about evolution and the nonexistence of Hindu gods.

So, no, I don't think that having a good feeling and answered prayers justifies all your beliefs. Feelings can be very deceptive, and if we believe Ezekiel 9, which basically says that being upset about the sin we see around us is our saving grace in times of destruction, I think we, as Christians, should see comfort as overrated. "What sorrow awaits you who laugh now, for your laughing will turn to mourning and sorrow."

Jesus said that you can judge a tree by its fruit, but spiritual fruit usually takes a long time to grow, and by the time it does, it's sort of too late to plant anything else. Traditionally, seeds of doubt grow into unbelief, and I have seen it happen to friends. Okay, be honest, it's happened to me, too.

So, after I returned to the faith from becoming basically a deist, I decided I needed to study up on the Bible and what I *should* believe about it instead of what I *could* believe about it, and then I looked for reasons to believe those things, the ones I *should* believe. Here are my thoughts about the issues you raised, based on the results of that research.

*About inerrancy, the reason I think it's an important Christian belief is that Jesus is supposed to be "the Living Word," and Jesus is perfect, so it makes sense to believe the Bible is perfect. Also, there is no other book on earth that can reliably tell us that Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins. If I start questioning the Bible, where does it end? What am I willing to let God tell me through the Bible? If I don't believe it all, then who is deciding what is true, me or God?

*I don't believe that God has changed. Some people say that the Old Testament God was different, but I think He is the same, it's just that we live in an era of mercy because of Jesus coming to earth. But make no mistake, God will destroy all sin, demons and this world eventually, and that is why demons are terrified of Jesus--they know He is the one who will slay them one day.

*I don't see why it's difficult to believe in an ark. This is a legend that exists in many other cultures, which to me lends credence to it. Ken Ham is building one right now.

*Young earth I think is believable because of the miracles Jesus did. When Jesus made fish and bread to feed the thousands of people, do you think that the bread, if scientifically tested, would have *appeared* to have been baked for 20 or 30 minutes, when in fact, it was "young bread," that had not been baked for any time at all? What about the fish? Fish have rings on their scales that can show how old the fish is. Do you think that the fish Jesus created miraculously had these rings and appeared to be older, even though they were "young fish" that had not had any time to age? Finally, think of the wine at the wedding: supposedly it was "good wine," which most likely means aged wine. However, only moments before it had been water. This is the "young wine" theory(?) So, I think if we can believe that Jesus did miracles where he created things instantaneously that appeared to be older than they were, why wouldn't God do the same with the earth, for the same reason--to make it usable for us, so we could have it sooner.

*The issue about David was addressed. We shouldn't worship the patriarchs. A lot of Bible stories are cautionary tales, not good examples like Jesus lived.

*I view the passage about head coverings to be an appeal to make Christians believe that they do need to conform to societal ideas of modesty. Every culture has an idea of "clothed" and an idea of "naked." Even the !Kung of the Kalahari, who look naked to us, view themselves as clothed, because they wear a belt that consists of a string. During the time this passage was written, the social norm was for all women to cover their heads. But apparently those Christians thought maybe they were different and didn't have to live by that standard. Paul was telling the women to basically "be modest." I would compare it to when Billy Graham recently pointed out that Christian women had started wearing midriff-baring tops to church, and asked why? Today, many women wear low-cut tops or short skirts in church, and that is the same issue. So, I think that has to be put in its cultural context.

It's good that you are trying to seek the right beliefs and are concerned about your spiritual growth. My struggle was way more dramatic and damaging, so that's why I try to reach out to those with doubts.

 

[BryanW92]

I think we, as Christians, should see comfort as overrated.

When I was a Methodist, I used to continuously hear, "Get out of your comfort zone", "Give more", "Do more". They preach that you can lose salvation, but then quickly back-pedal and claim that you can only lose it by consciously wishing it away (just as you consciously bring salvation upon yourself in their beliefs). But then they quote the Parable of the Talents and start hinting that your salvation will be forcibly taken away if you don't use everything you have to help others.

Comfort is a gift from God. His burden is light, right? Do for others not out of a hatred of comfort or a fear of the vague Arminian loss of salvation. Do it because you genuinely want to. Do what your spiritual gifts demand of you. You should be comfortable with your gifts. A person with the gift of mercy or serving is well within their comfort zone while helping others, yet no one ever tells them to stop doing that and to go learn to preach because they must be uncomfortable.

 

[Pammalamma]

Well, I think that's a good discussion of legalism, which is quite dangerous, but it's a bit out of context(?) considering service isn't really the current topic. Here are the verses I was thinking of. Maybe that will help:

Ezekiel 9:
The Slaughter of Idolaters
Then the Lord thundered, “Bring on the men appointed to punish the city! Tell them to bring their weapons with them!” 2 Six men soon appeared from the upper gate that faces north, each carrying a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man dressed in linen, who carried a writer’s case at his side. They all went into the Temple courtyard and stood beside the bronze altar.

3 Then the glory of the God of Israel rose up from between the cherubim, where it had rested, and moved to the entrance of the Temple. And the Lord called to the man dressed in linen who was carrying the writer’s case. 4 He said to him, “Walk through the streets of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of all who weep and sigh because of the detestable sins being committed in their city.”

5 Then I heard the Lord say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! 6 Kill them all—old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin right here at the Temple.”

Luke 6:
“Blessed are you poor,
For yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are you who hunger now,
For you shall be filled.
Blessed are you who weep now,
For you shall laugh.
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
And when they exclude you,
And revile you, and cast out your name as evil,
For the Son of Man’s sake.
23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy!
For indeed your reward is great in heaven,
For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.

24 “But woe to you who are rich,
For you have received your consolation.
25 Woe to you who are full,
For you shall hunger.
Woe to you who laugh now,
For you shall mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Anyway, I don't think I said anything like "Get out of your comfort zone!" I'm certain I didn't urge good works for salvation, either. I didn't even mention service. I said that a good feeling inside can be deceptive, and furthermore feeling nice isn't really what we should be seeking. Peace.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Comfort is a gift from God. His burden is light, right? Do for others not out of a hatred of comfort or a fear of the vague Arminian loss of salvation. Do it because you genuinely want to. Do what your spiritual gifts demand of you. You should be comfortable with your gifts. A person with the gift of mercy or serving is well within their comfort zone while helping others, yet no one ever tells them to stop doing that and to go learn to preach because they must be uncomfortable.

______________


May I say, amen to that, Bryan.

 

[BryanW92]

Well, I think that's a good discussion of legalism, which is quite dangerous, but it's a bit out of context(?) considering service isn't really the current topic. Here are the verses I was thinking of. Maybe that will help:


Anyway, I don't think I said anything like "Get out of your comfort zone!" I'm certain I didn't urge good works for salvation, either. I didn't even mention service. I said that a good feeling inside can be deceptive, and furthermore feeling nice isn't really what we should be seeking. Peace.

I didn't quote you as saying "Get out of your comfort zone", did I? But, when you or anyone speaks of us needing to avoid comfort (in whatever words you each choose to use), they are telling people to stop being where they are comfortable and to move to something/place where they are uncomfortable. That place is a comfort zone.

The usual means of driving people from that "dreaded" comfortable place is "more service". So, the usual context of getting people out of their comfortable place is by pursuing more opportunities to "Serve".

But, the thing that concerns me is your last sentence and that was actually my point. You say that "feeling nice isn't really what we should be seeking". If not nice, then what? Does God desire that we be anxious? Tired? Stressed? Angry? He wants us to feel well, happy, contented, comfortable. He tells us to rest in him. When I work in my gifts, I do something that stresses most people out to the max: public speaking. I don't tell others to get up, get uncomfortable, and do the same thing that makes me calm and joyous. Likewise, I don't want them to tell me that I must do what makes them happy. The body is made up a different parts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This what I have great difficulty believing;

- That the Bible is the inerrant word of God (NT yes, OT Not)
- That our loving, caring God used to be a vengeful merciless deity
- That Noah's built an ark. Surely this must be analogous?
- That the world is only a few thousand years old. Again, surely this is an analogy?
- That God could have condoned the despicable activities of David and others
- That God gets upset if women don't wear hats in church and other nonsense

There are sections of the Bible that were written for us, in that what is contained in those sections are not direct instructions for us to follow. They are written for our general insight into how God has worked with His people, and how those people cooperated with Him and when they didn't. And there are other parts that are written to us in that they are there to guide us in the right way of living our Christian lives. As we study the Bible, its context, who it was written to, and what period of time it was written, we can get a good idea of which is which, and we won't get confused about what we should use for general learning and what we should use as instructions to us.

God has always been a loving, caring God. The brutal acts of those who went into the promised land were not intended by God. He gave instructions for the Israelites to conquer and to possess the land. Nowhere did He instruct that they massacre the inhabitants. Joshua and company interpreted it wrongly and it was their brutality, not God's. The trouble is, ever since then, God has been blamed for despicable acts that He was never responsible for.

There is modern evidence that there actually was an ark. A large boat shaped object has been discovered in the foothills of Mt Ararat, and they have taken fossilised samples of wood, and iron objects which suggest that at one time it was a man made object. And the dimensions of this object are exactly the same as described as the Biblical dimensions of Noah's ark.

There is a theory called "the Gap Theory" which suggests that the universe is as old as scientists say it is. The Bible is not a scientific book, and there is no time frame specified in the creation of the universe. Some have tried to calculate it down to a few thousand years, but it has been suggested that the way the Bible described the generations were not just by one person following another, and the span between period of time were probably much longer than appears. Also, the Bible says that the earth was without form and void. We are not told how long it was in that state before the creation flora and fauna and man took place. It is quite believable that the plants, trees, animals and man took six days, but the universe and the earth could have existed for billions of years previously in the form of "dark and void".
But there is a lot of debate about and so the jury is still out.

God certainly did not condone the deeds of David and the others. David had to take the natural consequences of his actions, but God kept him basically on the straight and narrow through His grace and mercy. God had a plan for David, and He made sure that He was able to carry it out in him. David had faith in God and that was what kept him okay in God's sight. Of course, when Jesus went into Paradise and preached to those Old Testament saints, they would have been born again and will be part of the bride of Christ when Jesus comes again.

What people wear in church present absolutely no issue with God. Man looks on the outward, but God looks on the heart. Every age had its cultural norms which were important to people, especially religious folks, but God doesn't care about any of it. You are right, it is all religious nonsense.

By the way, although my "label" is Pentecostal, which describes the first 12 years of my Christian life, since 1996 I have been a member of a local Presbyterian church and I am now the Session Clerk, so I am very conversant and supportive of Presbyterianism.

 

[Wolftone]

Some great answers here. Thanks. I am reviewing my thoughts.

 

[Shibolet]

This what I do believe;

- There is one creator of the universe and that is God
- He had a son, Jesus Christ who was crucified to atone for my sin
- I believe that there is a Heaven for those that name the name of our saviour
- I believe in the power of sincere prayer (I have had many prayers answered)
- I am guided by the New Testament
- God has transformed my entire life and saved me

This what I have great difficulty believing;

- That the Bible is the inerrant word of God (NT yes, OT Not)
- That our loving, caring God used to be a vengeful merciless deity
- That Noah's built an ark. Surely this must be analogous?
- That the world is only a few thousand years old. Again, surely this is an analogy?
- That God could have condoned the despicable activities of David and others
- That God gets upset if women don't wear hats in church and other nonsense

Despite my disbelief in the OT and other man-made rules masquerading as God's word, God continues to answer most of my prayers and speak to my heart. I am blessed by him and I know that he is with me and my family.

My question is, if God answers my prayers and I feel his presence when I pray, does this mean that I can go on challenging parts of the Bible?

Your views are most welcome!

This what I do believe;

- There is one creator of the universe and that is God
- He had a son, Jesus Christ who was crucified to atone for my sin
- I believe that there is a Heaven for those that name the name of our saviour
- I believe in the power of sincere prayer (I have had many prayers answered)
- I am guided by the New Testament
- God has transformed my entire life and saved me

This what I have great difficulty believing;

- That the Bible is the inerrant word of God (NT yes, OT Not)
- That our loving, caring God used to be a vengeful merciless deity
- That Noah's built an ark. Surely this must be analogous?
- That the world is only a few thousand years old. Again, surely this is an analogy?
- That God could have condoned the despicable activities of David and others
- That God gets upset if women don't wear hats in church and other nonsense

Despite my disbelief in the OT and other man-made rules masquerading as God's word, God continues to answer most of my prayers and speak to my heart. I am blessed by him and I know that he is with me and my family.

My question is, if God answers my prayers and I feel his presence when I pray, does this mean that I can go on challenging parts of the Bible?

Your views are most welcome!

Have you ever heard about the Greek concept of the demigod? I was reading the NT when I stopped by Matthew 1:18 when I saw that Christianity had adopted that concept to enhance the divinity of Jesus. The concept of the demigod is interpreted as the son of a god with an earthly woman. Hence, that Jesus was born of Mary as a result of conception by the Holy Spirit as the quote says. My question is, do you have any problem to accept that concept or it comes easily into your understanding? If you ask me, I can't accept it because Jesus was a Jew and that doctrine is a solemn no no as the Faith of Jesus aka Judaism is concerned.