I’m a Pro-choice Catholic

Oleaster

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Would you also hold a different view of government in regards to murder or grand theft? Most of us would think that laws are for the restraint of people who are pro-choice about this or that felony.

It’s not about law. You misread me. I literally don’t care what imperial laws you manage to pass or revoke. Have at it, if you can. (I don’t think you can actually pass or revoke any law, by the way. I think you, like me, shall have laws passed for you by those in power who claim to represent you, and they will pass whatever they will, whether you like their laws or not.) This is a plutocratic empire. Your vote is not equal to the moneyed vote. In any case, I assure you that those with no regard for law will not comply, no matter the penalty.

However, laws do increase the amount of force within the system, and the force one uses today for what one calls good may well be used against one tomorrow for what one calls evil. That is what I have been on about. I’m not pro-abortion. I’m anti-tyranny. I put the loaded term “pro-choice” in my title for effect, sort of how Dorothy Day said Peter Maurin chose the term “anarchy” to describe Catholic social teaching on distributism, subsidiarity, etc. (See The Long Loneliness.)

I have been saying that abortion is murder and should be discouraged. If you want to pass a law against abortion, that is your business, and it’s fine with me. A law won’t stop abortion, and neither will enforcement. It might curtail abortion and would definitely change the practice of abortion (as the practice will go underground). But no law or force will end abortion.

A law will most likely contribute to the growth and spread of tyranny. As it is, nobody is forcing anyone to abort their child. To prevent abortion, however, will require force. That is also fine by me. I literally don’t care if you want to force me to hang by nails from a cross. Knock yourself out. But concentrated force is dangerous and will prove essential in establishing the reign of Antichrist and in getting a lot of us nailed to crosses and beheaded and whatnot. Since I’m not in favor of Antichrist, then I must be “pro-choice,” which is a subtle way of saying that I am against increasing force in the system.

Again, not that I shall attempt to prevent you or anyone else from forcing whatever you want on whomever you want for whatever “good cause” you see fit. I’m pretty sure the Jews killed Jesus for a good cause. I mean, He was a blasphemer. Heh. Just beware, lawmaking and dictating to others may backfire on you, and if it does, don’t say I didn’t warn you.
 
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RileyG

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Do you expect non-Christians and the pro-abortion crowd not to coerce people towards their side of things?
Agreed. They act as if God doesn't exist. But we do not live in a theocracy. Abortion, at its core, is a moral issue. The difference between right and wrong. There is absolutely no reason why it should be widely practiced and legal like it is today. I can never wrap my mind around the pro-abortion crowd no matter how hard I try. Lord, have mercy
 
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Oleaster

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Oleaster, you are in error.

Okay, Pope. I recant. J/K. You misunderstand me. I am not convinced of error. I think my views align with the Church’s social teaching, particularly as articulated by Dorothy Day, who is currently up for sainthood. But if I am in error, please convince me.

we are in constant battle against evil. Your proposal seems to say that we should lay down our arms and let the devil run free.

We are indeed in a constant spiritual battle, “for our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places” (Eph 6:12).

By no means should we lay down our arms in this battle, but we must be clear what arms those are. “Take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice, And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace: In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one. And take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God). By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit.” (Eph 6:13-8)

Now, you are perfectly free to pray for an end to abortion and even to work towards getting laws passed to end it. I have no intent to stop you from taking that course of action, if that’s where you believe the Lord is leading you. But I know that the ancient Greeks and Romans practiced abortion, like all pagan societies. And later, some Christian emperor outlawed abortion, but... it was still practiced.

It looks like you are trying to win the favor of sinners by saying look at me

No. Sinners, look to Christ. I am using the issue of abortion to highlight a different issue, which is tyranny. We live under a tyrannical system, and feeding it helps it grow.

I cannot stop all abortions, but neither am I going to tell them they are righteous for doing so.

Neither can I stop all abortions, and neither am I going to tell them they are righteous. But I can stop some abortions.

The abortion debate is actually a distraction.

I agree. I think most politics is pure distraction.

In 1963, a Catholic Cardinal adopted your position... he could not justify restraining others that did not share his faith

That is not my position. I think restraint is justified in certain cases, but not at the cost of expanding tyranny.

It was legalized in 1965 and no law could any longer restrain it.

Funny, that’s just what I’ve been saying, that no law can restrain sin.

In the early 1960s America was generally moral

Really? The America rife with gang warfare and all manner of societal ills? The America that killed Kennedy and was smuggling heroin out of Korea and Viet Nam and cocaine out of Bolivia and Peru via Columbia? That America was generally moral? Heh. The America I’ve studied has always been generally pagan and sinful, despite boasting of a lovely Christian veneer.

Your strategy fails and only brings blood and death

My strategy is the Lord’s strategy, which is to pray and persuade. I am expressing a desire not to increase tyranny, because tyranny brings blood and death. Prayer and persuasion do not.

yours is a false position, and has no basis in Church teaching or rule of law

You misunderstand my position.

I would like to see contraception, inappropriate contentography and prostitution illegal. They will still happen, but calling them rights is worse.

I don’t call those things rights.

I have no problem opposing them with the force of law

I have no problem with you opposing whatever you want to oppose with whatever force you can muster. I am skeptical of the end results, but go right ahead. Someday we’ll see how it all works out.
 
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Oleaster

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If you believe abortion is murder, how can you allow it to be legal? It's like saying you don't believe in murder, but you don't want the government to make it illegal.

What I’m actually saying is that I don’t believe that this particular government’s making abortion illegal will turn out good. Maybe it’ll happen though, and we’ll see how it goes.

your moral support in being "pro-choice," gives society the motivation to keep it legal and fight against those who oppose it, as we're seeing today with Churches being vandalized and Masses interrupted.

I offer no moral support for abortion. I also offer no moral support for this tyrannical government. I don’t mind dealing with vandalism and interrupted Masses. Our Lord promised tribulation.
 
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RileyG

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What I’m actually saying is that I don’t believe that this particular government’s making abortion illegal will turn out good. Maybe it’ll happen though, and we’ll see how it goes.



I offer no moral support for abortion. I also offer no moral support for this tyrannical government. I don’t mind dealing with vandalism and interrupted Masses. Our Lord promised tribulation.
The government needs to protect all people. This includes the unborn. The fact that illegal abortions will occur does not mean abortion should stay legal. The women need compassionate help instead of causing more scars and death.

what about slavery? There are millions of slaves in the world, including those in the United States, yet it is illegal. Should we legalize it? Same with prostitution and sex trafficking. Prostitutes get killed daily. People get kidnapped daily. Those things should never be legal.
 
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Oleaster

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Now I have yet to murder anyone. And it isn't because murder is illegal. But making it legal MIGHT make me think twice about doing it.

Heh. I too have managed to avoid murder (thus far). But even if murder were legal, I wouldn’t seriously consider it. For one thing, murder is ugly and turns my stomach. For another, I have God’s law, which shall never be annulled.

It is curious though that the murder rate, while fluctuating over time, tends to increase even though we live in a full-on police state now. We prolly just need a l’il more force to bring that down. Perhaps soon some Christians will get together to pray and agitate for more police and bureaus and funding and such to counter muh defund the poe-poe movement.

Hey, I bet if we all join the police, then things will finally get fixed. Maybe start a new police force to police the police, and another force to police the police who police the police, and so on, until we’re all hired. Satan could be captain. Can’t be no crime if we’re all policed by police who police the police now, can there?
 
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Oleaster

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The government needs to protect all people.

Here is one person the government does not need to protect: me. I literally don’t need it. God protects me. And if it is His will that I be defrauded or attacked, so be it. You know how many times I have called the police in my life? Never. Not that I haven’t suffered all kinds of violence.

The fact that illegal abortions will occur does not mean abortion should stay legal.

I don’t argue whether abortion should or should’t stay legal. I personally shall not attempt to force anyone to obey any law through any ungodly force, and I say that this government is ungodly.

what about slavery? There are millions of slaves in the world, including those in the United States, yet it is illegal. Should we legalize it?

I don’t know who you mean by we. I do not make slaves nor advocate slavery. I also do not make laws nor advocate man-made laws.

Same with prostitution and sex trafficking. Prostitutes get killed daily. People get kidnapped daily. Those things should never be legal.

I follow God’s law and encourage others to do likewise. Man’s law is for those who do not follow God’s law. I let the ungodly handle that. And you guys too, apparently. You guys can handle it. Seems like you have it all worked out. Best of luck too!
 
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Oleaster

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By "we" I mean the government. Sorry for the confusion.

I think I understand your position, but I completely disagree, sorry.
Ah. That’s cool. We needn’t agree. Gubmint gonna keep gubminting. Sinners gonna keep sinning. This Catholic’s gonna keep praying. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Oleaster

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My sincere apologies if I came off as snotty or rude. That was never my intent. Blessings.

You didn’t come off snotty or dude. Or if you did, I am too dead to notice. :) I hope I am not coming off like that either. I’m just talking.

Catholic social teaching urges us all to get involved, but it doesn’t make a lot of concrete demands as to political means. Many Catholics seem confused about that these days. Some apparently want a pure Catholic-Republican block or Catholic-Democrat block, but the Catholic political milieu has never been as sharply black and white as the American political landscape of today. Even during the Civil War, most Northern bishops adhered to the union while most Southern bishops adhered to the confederacy.

I favor the politics of prayer and persuasion to voting and lawmaking, and that is okay. Such are substantially the politics of the Catholic Worker movement, particularly when Peter and Dorothy were alive. They were actually much more involved in public protest than I feel drawn to. And they ticked off a lot of fellow Catholics with their passivism during WW2. But they were never pronounced heretics. Dorothy is being investigated for sainthood, even though she was an “anarchist.” She was really just a Catholic following Jesus in her own way. If you’re interested:
Dorothy Day's anarchism is the antidote to disappointing political system
 
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JimR-OCDS

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What I’m actually saying is that I don’t believe that this particular government’s making abortion illegal will turn out good. Maybe it’ll happen though, and we’ll see how it goes.



I offer no moral support for abortion. I also offer no moral support for this tyrannical government. I don’t mind dealing with vandalism and interrupted Masses. Our Lord promised tribulation.

Saying you're pro-choice provides the support to society to keep abortion legal.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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I have spoken and declared abortion to be murder and discouraged every mother from getting one. To “give warning” is a lot different from coercing someone.



Agreed. But Christ makes us free to do what we ought, as per John 8:36. Unbelievers are not so free. I declare to unbelievers and speak to them and warn them. I don’t coerce them. Neither do I coerce you. You are free to coerce whomsoever ye will.



I have not approved any evil, as far as I know. Have you?



Indeed I do. Don’t we all?



Do you support outlawing murder and do you support any laws in general? We have various laws for a reason. The mass killing of children is a crime against humanity.
 
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Okay, Pope. I recant. J/K. You misunderstand me. I am not convinced of error. I think my views align with the Church’s social teaching, particularly as articulated by Dorothy Day, who is currently up for sainthood. But if I am in error, please convince me.

















Really? The America rife with gang warfare and all manner of societal ills? The America that killed Kennedy and was smuggling heroin out of Korea and Viet Nam and cocaine out of Bolivia and Peru via Columbia? That America was generally moral? Heh. The America I’ve studied has always been generally pagan and sinful, despite boasting of a lovely Christian veneer.







You misunderstand my position.


Ok, thank you for elaborating your position. I know it is in error because it was mine that I once held. You say I misunderstand your position, but you misunderstand mine, not from a deliberate fault of yours but due to lack of communication. You do not know me.
Your first error is calling yourself a prochoice catholic. That is an oxymoron as would be a pro sloth catholic or pro Satan catholic. That person does not exist, as anyone that makes the choice for abortion incurs an automatic excommunication and is by definition no longer Catholic. You say you don’t make that choice but you use the euphemism of evil and thereby give aid and comfort to outrage. ProChoice was a term invented in 1980 by a third party candidate running for President. It was used instead of ProAbortion, as ProAbortion was offensive. It was politically easier to cover evil in the guise of choice. You say it is tyrannical, but it is not tyrannical to be opposed to evil. There is no purpose to abortion other then to kill, rob and destroy. To be called a prochoice catholic is to fail to grasp the reality of evil.
Do I think a law will end abortion? No and that is not my goal. The quote from
Ezekiel that I showed you in my first post to you explains it. Wickedness will still exist despite our warnings to repent, and abortion will still exist even if outlawed, but it will be relegated to the darkness where it belongs
No one will think it’s a right but a crime

thank you for elaborating your position but I still think you are wrong. It’s one thing to not waste our time on politics as these prolife politicians have been playing us for 50 years grabbing donations from the faithful when they have no intention of outlawing abortion, but when the court overturns Roe, I am pleased that that nightmare has ended, and I would not even dream of being called prochoice
Prayer and persuasion are good, but we must also accept proper labels. I am Catholic and I adhere to all magisterial teaching. I am no Pope but I gladly accept the mockery.

peace be with you
 
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Oleaster

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Saying you're pro-choice provides the support to society to keep abortion legal.

Your first error is calling yourself a prochoice catholic.

If pro-choice means “in favor of women choosing to murder children,” then yes, I suppose so. But if pro-choice is interpreted as I have repurposed it here, to mean literally what it says, “in favor of choices,” then it means only that I am for personal freedom and responsibility. The label “pro-choice” was deliberately taken and repurposed to be provocative. Nowhere have I supported abortion.

Do you support outlawing murder and do you support any laws in general? We have various laws for a reason. The mass killing of children is a crime against humanity.

I support God’s law. But it doesn’t seem your we is the same as my we. I don’t belong to the people of the world but to the people of God. It is mostly the people of the world, not God’s people, who are forcing all these laws on everyone born subject to U.S. so-called jurisdiction, many of which laws (not just legalized abortion) are ungodly. Many of what I believe to be misguided Christians are mixed up in this too, clearly, making asses of us all by proxy.

Anyway, as a general rule I’m for choice, not coercion. I don’t have to be for coercion when nearly everyone else in the world right now is for it. Coercion is happening pretty much everywhere all the time, even without my support. It’s tough to find Jesus or the disciples coercing anyone anywhere in the New Testament, so it’s not a good look for me. As I said somewhere in all this, the only instance I can think of is Jesus with the money changers. He threw them out of the temple, an OT type of the Church. He never tried to direct the Roman government.

Paul tolerated the Roman government and prayed for those involved with it. He even appealed to it as a citizen, which I think he did mainly so that he might preach the gospel in Rome. Then it killed him.

Anyway, as someone noticed here, the thing I have set forth is nothing pro-abortion but a “Christian anarchist” or “Christian libertarian,” or Catholic distributist + subsidiaritist solution to the issue of abortion (and any other political trap). Teach your children well, unite in Christian community, and pagan ills shouldn’t trouble you. They may trouble pagans, who are free to deal with their problems in their usual manner, by force.

I can’t understand why a Catholic would unite with a pagan empire or try to direct its affairs in any way but by prayer, persuasion, and martyrdom. Maybe too many Christians fail to grasp that this is a pagan empire, not a Christian republic. But it is a pagan empire, so the very tactics that converted the old Roman pagan empire are the ones most apt to convert this new American one. But our highly politicized American church is not going to convert this empire. We Catholics may receive the lash and cross from the pagans, but the empire needs a witness this church is unprepared to offer. Too much world in this church, not enough Spirit.

Now Ammon Hennacy wrote, “Christian Anarchism is based upon the answer of Jesus to the Pharisees when He said that he without sin was to cast the first stone; and upon the Sermon on the Mount which advises the return of good for evil and the turning of the other cheek. Therefore when we take any part in government by voting for legislative, judicial and executive officials we make these men our arm by which we cast a stone and deny the Sermon of the Mount. The dictionary definition of a Christian is: one who follows Christ; kind, kindly, Christ-like. Anarchism is voluntary cooperation for good, with the right of secession. A Christian Anarchist is therefore one who turns the other cheek; overturns the tables of the money-changers, and who does not need a cop to tell him how to behave. A Christian Anarchist does not depend upon bullets or ballots to achieve his ideal; he achieves that ideal daily by the One Man Revolution with which he faces a decadent, confused and dying world.”

I am no Pope but I gladly accept the mockery.

Just funnin’ with ya, friend, not mocking. I didn’t expect my post to be understood, much less accepted. It would be strange if a people accustomed to worldly politics suddenly accepted the otherworldly ways of the Spirit. God bless you. And may the empire pass all the most awesomest laws and grow the biggliest enforcements this world has ever seen! :smilecat:
 
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If pro-choice means “in favor of women choosing to murder children,” then yes, I suppose so. But if pro-choice is interpreted as I have repurposed it here, to mean literally what it says, “in favor of choices,” then it means only that I am for personal freedom and responsibility. The label “pro-choice” was deliberately taken and repurposed to be provocative. Nowhere have I supported abortion.



I support God’s law. But it doesn’t seem your we is the same as my we. I don’t belong to the people of the world but to the people of God. It is mostly the people of the world, not God’s people, who are forcing all these laws on everyone born subject to U.S. so-called jurisdiction, many of which laws (not just legalized abortion) are ungodly. Many of what I believe to be misguided Christians are mixed up in this too, clearly, making asses of us all by proxy.

Anyway, as a general rule I’m for choice, not coercion. I don’t have to be for coercion when nearly everyone else in the world right now is for it. Coercion is happening pretty much everywhere all the time, even without my support. It’s tough to find Jesus or the disciples coercing anyone anywhere in the New Testament, so it’s not a good look for me. As I said somewhere in all this, the only instance I can think of is Jesus with the money changers. He threw them out of the temple, an OT type of the Church. He never tried to direct the Roman government.

Paul tolerated the Roman government and prayed for those involved with it. He even appealed to it as a citizen, which I think he did mainly so that he might preach the gospel in Rome. Then it killed him.

Anyway, as someone noticed here, the thing I have set forth is nothing pro-abortion but a “Christian anarchist” or “Christian libertarian,” or Catholic distributist + subsidiaritist solution to the issue of abortion (and any other political trap). Teach your children well, unite in Christian community, and pagan ills shouldn’t trouble you. They may trouble pagans, who are free to deal with their problems in their usual manner, by force.

I can’t understand why a Catholic would unite with a pagan empire or try to direct its affairs in any way but by prayer, persuasion, and martyrdom. Maybe too many Christians fail to grasp that this is a pagan empire, not a Christian republic. But it is a pagan empire, so the very tactics that converted the old Roman pagan empire are the ones most apt to convert this new American one. But our highly politicized American church is not going to convert this empire. We Catholics may receive the lash and cross from the pagans, but the empire needs a witness this church is unprepared to offer. Too much world in this church, not enough Spirit.

Now Ammon Hennacy wrote, “Christian Anarchism is based upon the answer of Jesus to the Pharisees when He said that he without sin was to cast the first stone; and upon the Sermon on the Mount which advises the return of good for evil and the turning of the other cheek. Therefore when we take any part in government by voting for legislative, judicial and executive officials we make these men our arm by which we cast a stone and deny the Sermon of the Mount. The dictionary definition of a Christian is: one who follows Christ; kind, kindly, Christ-like. Anarchism is voluntary cooperation for good, with the right of secession. A Christian Anarchist is therefore one who turns the other cheek; overturns the tables of the money-changers, and who does not need a cop to tell him how to behave. A Christian Anarchist does not depend upon bullets or ballots to achieve his ideal; he achieves that ideal daily by the One Man Revolution with which he faces a decadent, confused and dying world.”



Just funnin’ with ya, friend, not mocking. I didn’t expect my post to be understood, much less accepted. It would be strange if a people accustomed to worldly politics suddenly accepted the otherworldly ways of the Spirit. God bless you. And may the empire pass all the most awesomest laws and grow the biggliest enforcements this world has ever seen! :smilecat:

it appears that you share my general sentiments that the Church should not be too entangled with secular rulers. There was a time when the Church served as the conscience of the rulers. Royalty were coronated by the Bishop and the state submitted to the law of God. It was brief and not perfect, but it was there. The Church was not the state, yet it’s conscience. The state although not consisting of the Church was in submission to her.
It was Martin Luther that first brought the idea of separation of church and state, as he lead the rebellion that brought us where we are today
The hierarchy of the Catholic Church is too entangled in American politics and is corrupted by the state’s money and power.
I am for a leaving of direct involvement of the state affairs and returning to being its conscience
Anarchy is not the answer, as we see wholesale riots, destruction and theft with the lax enforcement of laws. Laws are necessary or else evil abounds
Taking the name of evil and applying it to Christ is a grave error. No Catholic can be prochoice and remain Catholic. They may blindly think so, but it is not the case according to canon law. Regardless of your definition of the term prochoice, the evil connotation causes too much scandal to be acceptable
Freedom of conscience is a myth. Catholics are all called to submit in holy obedience to mother Church. To refuse to do so is to place oneself outside in the darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
We need to study the law of God and follow it. If in our study we find ourselves falling short, then we pray for the grace to repent and not hold on in obstinacy due to the claim of conscience. There is no anarchy in heaven, we will all appear in fear before the judgement seat of Christ.

may the Lord have mercy
 
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WarriorAngel

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Like Joe Biden, I’m a pro-choice Catholic. Unlike Joe Biden, I’m not a Democrat. Thus, my reasons for being pro-choice likely differ from his.

Although I’m pro-choice, I don’t support abortion. I think it’s murder. But I hold a different view of government than pro-lifers who would outlaw abortion.

As a Catholic, I subscribe to “the principle of subsidiarity, according to which ‘a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions...’” (CCC #1883). Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

In my view, the primary responsibility for preventing sins and societal ills (including abortion) belongs to individuals and to families. Thus, most of what the U.S. government does is overreach. It’s that simple. If I don’t want mothers to abort their children, then I should teach my daughters about the value of human life, which begins at the moment of conception. If I do a good job, then my daughters shouldn’t abort their children.

I can try to persuade others not to abort their children, but that’s where the Kingdom of Christ ends, at persuasion. The Kingdom of Christ is entirely persuasive, never coercive. The devil’s empire is coercive.

“But you said yourself that abortion is murder. Surely the state is right to outlaw murder?” I grant that God’s law against murder, including abortion, is good. But God’s law is also powerless apart from Him. Witness the billions of murders committed since God gave the law. Witness especially the earthly keepers of God’s law (the Jews) in collusion with the ultimate keepers of man’s law (the Romans) committing the most heinous murder in history (the crucifixion of Christ).

The trouble with government is twofold. First, its laws are powerless. If God’s laws are powerless apart from Him, then man’s laws are more so. Second, government refuses to accept that its laws are powerless. More precisely, government pretends to have power to enforce its laws.

We know that government’s laws are powerless because it has made laws against speeding, yet writes speeding tickets daily. It has made laws against drunk driving, but arrests drunk drivers daily. It has made laws against murder, but arrests murderers daily. Its laws don’t work, but it claims that without its laws (and more crucially its enforcers), society would suffer more speeding, more drunk driving, more murder.

The test case for government’s argument is virtually nonexistent, because few societies in history have been able to rid themselves entirely of government for long. Government is fond of pointing to war-torn countries in states of “anarchy” as their test case, but such countries are not truly anarchical. Their ongoing wars are almost entirely concerned with establishing some form of government. They are not free from politics. They are engaged in politics at its ultimate level, the level of brute force.

What law “enforcement” mostly does is show up after a crime has been committed (murder, for instance) or during the commission of a crime (especially drunk driving and speeding, occasionally rape and theft though not usually), but always after a crime is initiated. So-called law “enforcement” then has mainly a punitive function, as its penalties supposedly discourage more crime. Again, there is hardly a test case for this. Maybe look at the thirteen colonies after the revolutionary war, just before they got their new government off the ground. Or study Native American tribal organization. There is still a form of government there, but it’s the sort of government that I prefer, which is to say minimal.

One way to get minimal government is to pass few laws. Few laws need few enforcers, administrators, and other bureaucrats. Trust the individual and the family to regulate their lives. Expect criminality to be ever-present. Yet, try to treat criminality persuasively, which is not to say by simply discouraging criminality. But when criminal acts occur, treat the criminal as a human being capable of redemption. Try to persuade the criminal to reform. In extreme cases, some criminals may need killing or lifetime incarceration, but what we have today throughout the world is a universal police state and prison planet. It’s too much. Off the rails. Globalist. Satanic.

This leads back to the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. Littleness. Localness. For more on the subject see Subsidiarity (Catholicism).

Government in general today is too large, especially the US government. It’s tempting to think that when the Founding Fathers formed the government, they envisioned a smaller institution for a smaller population of the thirteen colonies rather than an imperial government reigning over the expansive territory and population of today. But that’s not true. The empire we have today is exactly what the dominant faction envisioned. Hamilton in the Federalist Papers envisions an empire, repeatedly referring to it by name, such as when he writes in Federalist #13, “The entire separation of the States into thirteen unconnected sovereignties is a project too extravagant and too replete with danger to have many advocates. The ideas of men who speculate upon the dismemberment of the empire seem generally turned toward three confederacies - one consisting of the four Northern, another of the four Middle, and a third of the five Southern States.”

Well, I’m for the confederacies that Hamilton was against. Actually, I’m for a division of the empire more along the left/right and libertarian/anarcho/centrist political lines of today - not necessarily separation into distinct nations, but at least a political division similar to what Diocletian did when he split the Roman Empire into East and West to make it more easily governable. We can all remain Americans with a common military to oppose Communist China, Recidivist Imperial Russia, etc. But ultra-leftists can be free to smoke legalized LGBTQ crack rocks in their own safe space version of empire called Libtardia, ultra-righties can be free to shoot bazookas at lawn jockeys on the public square in their version called Magatardia, and those of us who just want to be left alone to mind our own affairs can reside in Central Calmistan.

Anyway, it was not the Federalists but the Antifederalists who supported this concept of small government, which best reflects Catholic subsidiarity. In opposition to “subdivision of the empire into several partial confederacies,” Hamilton preferred “union under one government” (Federalist #1). It is precisely this Hamiltonian idea of empire that Abe Lincoln and the Northern army imposed on the South during the so-called Civil War. The lamentable fact that the South had a slave-based economy has muddied the waters.

Consider any other political issue in the same light. Say for instance, that the South supported a constitutional amendment to prohibit alcohol sales replete with a Volstead Prohibition Enforcement Act. Then the North conquered the Southern States, forcing them to accept alcohol sales. Or suppose that the South supported a law against abortion, while the North was pro-choice. Then the North conquered and forced abortion on the South.

Of course, it’s not entirely clear that alcohol consumption or abortion are good for society. The point is that the conquering force must end up on the political side approved by modernity. So long as this is the result, it makes it difficult for anyone to question the “might makes right” policy of the conquerors. “Oh what? You wanted the South to win so that a bunch of oppressed people couldn’t party with booze or abort the burdensome results of their sexual trysts?” No.

I wanted the South to win for the same reason I wanted the Antifederalists to win. I want small, local government with few laws, few enforcers, few administrators, and few other bureaucrats. I want a government localized and responsive enough so that individuals and families can actually influence the debate about laws rather than being dictated to by a distant imperial government substantially controlled by communist/fascist corporations and lobbying groups with little oversight.

Since that’s what I want, I encourage everyone not to abort their children, but I don’t insist that an imperial government enforce my views. That makes me pro-choice, I guess. That’s also why I’m probably a different sort of pro-choice Catholic from Joe Biden. If the “Ruth Sent Me” crowd shows up at my parish, I’ll discourage them from disrupting Mass with their mindless chanting, but I’ll also offer to schedule a meeting to talk with them respectfully about our concerns. They seem particularly concerned about abortion. I’m particularly concerned about tyranny… and I’ve had enough of it… frankly.
I'd rather let you read this.

An Ex-Abortionist speaks

Co founder of NARAL who [converted] and spoke out about the lies they told...
 
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JimR-OCDS

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The problem is that the term, "pro-choice," is understood in political terms
and not literal as you're applying to yourself.

So, when you say, I'm a "Pro-choice Catholic," it means to others as you
support the political position of being pro-choice rather than the literal one
which you explained.

Perhaps you need to find another term to define yourself as.

BTW, even "Pro-life" comes across to others as a political position
rather than what it actually means.
 
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Anarchy is not the answer, as we see wholesale riots, destruction and theft with the lax enforcement of laws. Laws are necessary or else evil abounds
Taking the name of evil and applying it to Christ is a grave error. No Catholic can be prochoice and remain Catholic. They may blindly think so, but it is not the case according to canon law. Regardless of your definition of the term prochoice, the evil connotation causes too much scandal to be acceptable

Thanks. This has been a hilarious exercise in futility. I have laughed a great deal. It’s quite funny to me that someone (not myself) introduced the term “strategy” into this thread, and it has reappeared a time or two, yet no one seems to have grasped my true strategy, which is not political but rhetorical. I’ll explain.

Christians preaching the gospel or sharing the good news of Christ use the godly weapon of persuasion. Christians then become rhetoricians. Good rhetoricians have precise definitions in mind for the words they choose. A good listener or careful reader is generally able to sense the meaning of terms based on context. Poorer listeners or less careful readers are apt to misinterpret. But a good rhetorician can correct misinterpretations by clarifying terms.

Now culture warriors are also rhetoricians, to a point (before they transition towards more forceful tactics). One of their rhetorical methods is to corner the market on a term or phrase that makes their position seem most attractive. The baby murderers (see what I did there?) have latched onto the term “pro-choice.” So...

My rhetorical strategy for this post involved placing “their” term in my title, as bait. Literally clickbait. Once anyone clicked and read, they would presumably recognize that the author, in fact, is not “pro-choice” as the soul destroyers understand the term. My rhetorical strategy thus further involved the tactic of redefinition (Please see Redefinition).

I didn’t literally state my redefinition of the term “pro-choice,” but it should be evident from context that I do not support abortion. I have not committed some “grave error” by “taking the name of evil and applying it to Christ.” A grave error is using rhetoric without understanding rhetoric, which is habitually happening all over these boards. :joycat:

An irony here results from the fact that the issue of abortion has become such a triggering mechanism for Catholics. Droves of Catholics recently voted for a demagogic reality TV star almost exclusively over the issue of abortion. Hence, whereas I had hoped to catch a wandering child slaughterer or two with my clickbait and provocative introductory paragraph, to try having a meaningful conversation about not clubbing infants to death, and about not clubbing anybody over the head with any laws, sticks, or guns, instead I got a bunch of knee-jerk reactions from Catholics who seem not to have read my post, much less understood it - all trying to label me heretical and compel me to repent. It’s incredibly amusing that this thread devolved into a bunch of pro-life Catholics trying to convince a fellow pro-life Catholic that he is in error and should repent. All because they’re poor readers or poor rhetoricians I suppose?

As for anarchy, the same thing applies. As I said somewhere in this thread in response to someone, Catholics like Peter Maurin and Dorothy Day deliberately took up the term “anarchy” in their writings because of its provocativeness. Dorothy Day defines her anarchism in her autobiography, The Long Loneliness, showing it to fall completely in line with Catholic Social Teaching, incorporating Distributism, Subsidiarity, Voluntarism, Personalism, etc. She cites Chesterton and Belloc. It’s rather like what fellow Catholic J.R.R. Tolkien said, “My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning the abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs).”
Quote in context: J.R.R. Tolkien on anarchism
Brief discussion: https://www.libertarianism.org/articles/j-r-r-tolkiens-small-government-politics

For me, Catholic Anarchy is the answer to every political question. It is truly Catholic and truly good. There are Catholic anarchists all over this country today doing all sorts of good work (see Christian anarchism: Catholic Worker Movement). In no way does Catholic Anarchy lead to riots, destruction, or theft, nor even to abortion. But we do see riots, destruction, theft and abortion even in the face of heavy law enforcement. Perhaps the best solution is to apply the heaviest of all law enforcement across the board. We can shoot all criminals. Then literally everyone will be dead. Problem solved. :screamcat:
 
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