Hypocritical Discipleship

Do you disciple or mentor anyone? If so, are you afflicted with multiple sinful habbits?

  • Yes/No

  • Yes/Yes

  • N/A


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Theophan

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Hello brothers and sisters,

Forgive me for the potentially offensive title.

My question is related to the title. We know that the Lord warned against following those who are blind since both shall fall into a ditch, but I am perplexed as to how people arrive to the conclusion that they are no longer blind and that they are now fit to guide others, presumably, not into a pit but to the Way, the Truth, and the Life, Jesus Christ. Of course, there are many definitions of "discipleship", depending on your tradition, sect, denomination, etc.

From my perspective, it seems reasonable that the earliest Christians followed those whom God had appointed as Apostles. It seems reasonable to have followed those whom the Apostles themselves appointed as presbyters and deacons and bishops, etc. Why? Because the Holy Spirit Himself chose worthy men of God to lead and feed the flock of then Lord. Nowadays, however, we see men who have appointed themselves as guides of the blind and teachers of babes, deluded by an evil spirit into thinking that they are something when they are nothing, deceiving themselves.

I come from a Southern Baptist background that taught everyone to almost immediately begin "making disciples" of all nations. What I saw, instead, mostly in myself, was that I was not even truly a disciple of Christ since I was led hither and thither by my sinful habits. Looking back, I marvel at my hypocrisy and how arrogant I was to consider myself someone who had so quickly been made worthy by God to mentor and lead others to the kingdom of Heaven, to Christ Himself. I had the audacity to say, "Follow me as I follow Christ." But, in truth, I did not follow Christ but the antichrist, Satan himself. Sure, I knew many scriptures by heart, I knew theology, but my deeds did not match my words. inappropriate content, masturbation, fornication, marijuana, pride, gossip, slander, evil suspicions, gluttony, greed, covetousness, vanity, lust, the list goes on. We all sin! I know that. God doesn't expect those who are making disciples to be perfect. I know that! On my part, I felt deep remorse for many of these grave sins, while I felt nothing for some of the other sins on this list, mostly because I was simply unaware of their presence in my soul. I also did my best to repent of the sins I was aware of, but I repeatedly kept falling down. Yes, I know, this is the Christian struggle. But seriously? In this pitiful and wretched stated, I was the sort of person who thought it was a good idea to disciple others! How outrageously wicked. I do not even want to know the extent to which I damaged other people's souls, lest I fall into despair.

Why am I making this post? Because I would like everyone to learn from my horrible mistakes. Secondly, I would like to challenge those of you who live with grievous sinful habits that you have not repented of (meaning, you are no longer captive to these sins and you no longer do them!). For, if you cannot find healing for your own soul with the grace of God, how do you expect to be of any use to others, especially those whom you mentor or give guidance to? With your prayers? Perhaps, although I remember those severe words of the apostle James which say that the prayers of a righteous man avails much. And the blind man in the Gospel according to John says, If any do the will of God, him God hears. (However, this is a side topic. Allow me to resume.) How can you say any word of edification or exhortation if you yourself are ignorant of the Way to purifying your sinful habits? What sort of instruction can you provide others? Would it not be better to remain silent than to subvert souls into perdition since you yourself are a blind guide? And I address both pastors and laity who mentor others. Nay, this even applies to siblings and parents. Please, someone, explain this madness; explain how you persist in offering advice coming from darkness rather than light, from opaqueness rather than clarity, from sinfulness rather than sanctity. It makes no sense to me now, but--once upon a time--in the height of demonic pride, such a proposition of discipleship made all the sense in the world to me, perhaps for no other cause than to inflate my ego, that is, my pride.

I realize that my rhetoric is not honey to the eyes. Please forgive me if I have offended you! This was not my intent. Although I also would not be surprised if some responded like the Sanhedrin: "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. (Acts 5:33)"

Thank you for reading.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Those who are best qualified to lead and disciple others are not the ones who are trying to elevate themselves to that position, nor do they consider themselves worthy.

On the other hand, we all benefit from having examples, guides, advisors, and so on in the faith.

IDEALLY ... all would seek to be conformed to Christ and overcome such sins. And as they become more like Christ, others tend to be drawn to that and desire their mentorship.

Anyone who has been sincerely working out their own salvation for some years or decades should be in a position to give counsel to those new in the faith, but there will also be the kinds of questions that are best left to those experienced in guiding others. We should always recognize our own limitations and not try to guide anyone down a path we don't know well ourselves, so that we can advise of pitfalls.

This should be a very natural process within the body. But pressing new members into a position of discipling others right away is most unwise, IMO - both for the sake of the "discipler" and the one being discipled.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Anastasia,

Thank you for your words! I agree. However, seeing that you are an Orthodox Christian, I am not surprised by your response, as it is quite Orthodox. Glory to God!
You are very kind.

By the way, welcome to CF! Forgive me, I only just noticed that you just joined. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you. By the way, your signature has a very remarkable statement. Who said, "We can know a theology is true if it is able to cure people. If it cannot cure them, it is not true theology."?
I had to drop the citation because I ran out of space (and had to edit down the quote). If I remember correctly, it was a combination of Met. Kallistos Ware and Hierothos Vlachos ... I think maybe Met. Ware was quoting Vlachos pretty closely to make a point. That part was probably Vlachos. I hope I remember correctly. :)
 
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NDL

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Theophan
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Sorry I titled my response in the above way; for some reason I can't quote someone; the quote doesn't come up in my browser.

As to your query, I voted "Yes" to both. Why? Because I do disciple people, however, I have my own deficiencies. Would someone say that I walk in hypocrisy? Probably not, because I am pretty transparent with my shortcomings.

As to the bulk of your post, what you wrote grieved me, and I couldn't be in any more agreement. I too, have experienced the phenomenon about which you speak.

Galations 3:24: "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

Knowledge of the Law draws us to Christ. Knowledge of the Law also makes us aware of our own sinfulness, and dependence upon Christ. When a teacher omits the Law and focuses on Grace by itself, it makes the believer ignorant, and oftentimes proud.

I personally am disgusted with these Pastors.

These blind fools will oftentimes focus on hyper grace, and/or they'll preach against societal sins that are often *outside* of the church - making themselves (and their congregates) feel good about themselves. Yet they will not spend a lot of time on the Beatitudes - which is a necessity if we are to love as God requires, nor will these Pastors teach on Titus or 1 & 2 Timothy - which instructs church leadership about what they ought to be, and how the congregates are to relate to them. Therefore, the train is off the track.

Very grievous, considering the 'cause and effect' nature is plain to see.
 
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Swan7

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I see the trick question and I am going to answer this very carefully. We, as a body of Christ, are told to edify (mentor/disciple) one another. Because we are born into sin, we are sinful by nature. Then when we are reborn as Christians by the Holy Spirit of fire - given by Jesus, we undergo a massive struggle between the flesh and the spirit:

Matthew 26:41
Ephesians 6:12
Galatians 5:17

God changes our hearts as much to the measure of our obedience to Him. Romans 12:3-8 If we continue to diligently seek His Kingdom and Face, He will reward us with Manna! (Bread of heaven - His Word Whom came into this world and became sin on the cross to make it possible for us to go to Him directly for forgiveness - and SO much more!). But this task takes time which is why we are compared to having faith as a mustard seed (which ends up being the largest of trees!). We all have a measure of faith and God uses us accordingly to His will/plan.

That being said, we stumble into sin as we grow in faith, why? God uses the evil in the world to test our faith (Job, Jeremiah, Jesus was tested 40/40, etc), so we don’t falter later. The struggle actually makes us stronger because God makes us stronger if we persevere/endure. If we by any means think we are strong on our own is a massive error. I used to think that I had to be strong for God, but that is not who God is at all. I had a false god in mind for MANY years. Why? Because I leaned much more on man’s opinions than God’s ways/character.

I’m saying all of this to simply say that we are in a war. A spiritual war and not with one another. Yes, we stumble into sin, but that doesn’t mean we are sinners! That’s to put Christ’s death in vain! No, He wiped out death from us spiritually and made us clean - if we go to Him with an open and honest heart. We aren’t perfect either, not apart from Him, but He makes us perfect in His sight because of His resurrection. He is the only hope we have in discipleship/mentoring anyone - and not of our own doing but from the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


So I answered, Yes/yes with all this in mind.
 
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Dave-W

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Theophan, I understand your dilemma in applying the command to make disciples.

The problem you are highlighting has no good solution since NO ONE is perfect (beyond the Lord Himself).

We all have areas of sin in our lives, and for the most part we may be completely unaware of them. Another problem is the church fathers in the 2nd and 3rd centuries intentionally divorced themselves from the Judaism that was their predecessor and of which "discipleship" was a well understood institution. So no one knew what discipleship was supposed to look like.
 
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NDL

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Theophan, I understand your dilemma in applying the command to make disciples.

The problem you are highlighting has no good solution since NO ONE is perfect (beyond the Lord Himself).

We all have areas of sin in our lives, and for the most part we may be completely unaware of them. Another problem is the church fathers in the 2nd and 3rd centuries intentionally divorced themselves from the Judaism that was their predecessor and of which "discipleship" was a well understood institution. So no one knew what discipleship was supposed to look like.

I don't want to speak for Theophan, but if I understood him correctly, I think his premise referred to deacons, etc., who were engaged in gross sin.
 
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Dave-W

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I don't want to speak for Theophan, but if I understood him correctly, I think his premise referred to deacons, etc., who were engaged in gross sin.
Yes, that is possibly what he meant; but he was not clear on it.
 
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Swan7

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What should you do if you feel like a hypocrite ? Is it better to stop everything and not claim to believe or try it anyway? Because I know that Jesus hates hypocrites and lukewarm people..

That is not what the Bible says or shows. Why do you think Jesus Christ/God hates them?
 
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Justasking123

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That is not what the Bible says or shows. Why do you think Jesus Christ/God hates them?

I thought it was because they tried to appear like good people on the outside but were wicked on the inside and disobeyed God's command Matthew 23:26-27, Job 8:13, Luke 6:46 , Mark 7:6, Titus 1:6

I thought the words towards them are so strong because they know the Truth but somehow do not follow the Words..I also feel like this because my heart is not very commited to God, like David, Peter, Paul, Magdalena and other Christians. Sometimes I'm thinking if I pray from my lips without heart it is a disgrace to God, I pray that my heart belongs to Jesus Christ.
 
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Swan7

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I thought it was because they tried to appear like good people on the outside but were wicked on the inside and disobeyed God's command Matthew 23:26-27, Job 8:13, Luke 6:46 , Mark 7:6, Titus 1:6

I thought the words towards them are so strong because they know the Truth but somehow do not follow the Words..I also feel like this because my heart is not very commited to God, like David, Peter, Paul, Magdalena and other Christians. Sometimes I'm thinking if I pray from my lips without heart it is a disgrace to God, I pray that my heart belongs to Jesus Christ.

Yes that which you say here is true, but Jesus Christ didn’t die on the cross for nothing either: John 3:16-17
He died for the whole world.

What God does hate is sin which separates us from Him. He desires us and He wants us to desire Him. ;yellowheart:

Do you desire God in your heart?
 
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aiki

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Nowadays, however, we see men who have appointed themselves as guides of the blind and teachers of babes, deluded by an evil spirit into thinking that they are something when they are nothing, deceiving themselves.

Who, exactly, are you thinking of? Do you have particular people in mind?

Yes, I know, this is the Christian struggle. But seriously? In this pitiful and wretched stated, I was the sort of person who thought it was a good idea to disciple others! How outrageously wicked.

I take it you were not yourself discipled. Proper discipleship would have helped prevent such a hypocritical circumstance.

For, if you cannot find healing for your own soul with the grace of God, how do you expect to be of any use to others, especially those whom you mentor or give guidance to?

I most certainly agree with the idea of being a "vessel sanctified and meet for the Master's use and prepared unto every good work," but at the same time, "Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life" is true even if it was Hitler saying so.

I realize that my rhetoric is not honey to the eyes. Please forgive me if I have offended you! This was not my intent. Although I also would not be surprised if some responded like the Sanhedrin: "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. (Acts 5:33)"

Lol! A bit of a mixed message here. You apologize for being offensive but then accuse those who might take offense as being of a kind with those who put Christ to death! This is like poking someone in the eye and then saying, "Sorry, but if you don't like it, here's another poke in the eye!" Lol!
 
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~Anastasia~

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Who, exactly, are you thinking of? Do you have particular people in mind?



I take it you were not yourself discipled. Proper discipleship would have helped prevent such a hypocritical circumstance.

LOl

I most certainly agree with the idea of being a "vessel sanctified and meet for the Master's use and prepared unto every good work," but at the same time, "Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life" is true even if it was Hitler saying so.



Lol! A bit of a mixed message here. You apologize for being offensive but then accuse those who might take offense as being of a kind with those who put Christ to death! This is like poking someone in the eye and then saying, "Sorry, but if you don't like it, here's another poke in the eye!" Lol!
You're replying to a post approaching 2 years old to a member who is no longer with us.

And I can see how there can be confusion. But there are different layers of meaning, and a nderstanding from a different point of view. Very easy to misunderstand.

But at any rate, the post/thread are old.
 
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aiki

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You're replying to a post approaching 2 years old to a member who is no longer with us.

And I can see how there can be confusion. But there are different layers of meaning, and a nderstanding from a different point of view. Very easy to misunderstand.

But at any rate, the post/thread are old.

Ah, nuts. I've done this a few times, not looking at the time/date stamp on a post. Thanks for the heads-up. I shall slink off sheepishly now...
 
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~Anastasia~

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Ah, nuts. I've done this a few times, not looking at the time/date stamp on a post. Thanks for the heads-up. I shall slink off sheepishly now...
Yeah I hate when that happens. I mostly noticed because we haven't seen Theophan around in a very long time. I think he asked to be removed?
 
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