Hyper-Grace ??????????

[murjahel]

Snippy Snippy.

To say one simply has to believe to be saved and that repentance (in its commonly accepted context) is not a prerequisite, does not equate to universalism. I know you feel it inevitably must, but that is just your point of view.

I have shown quite a number of passages that show that REPENTANCE IS CALLED FOR IN THE O.T. AND IN THE N.T.

Repentance is a change of mind toward sin... so to say that one need not change their mind toward sin, and are saved regardless of that is then accepting the starting doctrine from bringing orthodox Christians into the UNIVERSALIST heresy.

So, universalists doctrines must not be promoted here... they offend me, and orthodox Christians...

 

[Messy]

Just saw this at WOF:
OldDogDiver
Hyper grace - greasy grace - is a deadly heresy. I just read Steve Hill's "Spiritual Avalanche". Should be required reading for all Christians.

We mature Christians may understand true grace, but those immature or not-yet-saved haven't a clue and are being lulled into a false salvation because of the way hyper-grace is preached.

Steve Hill: The Spiritual Avalanche That Could Kill Millions

http://www.stevehill.org/spiritual-avalanche.html

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

I have shown quite a number of passages that show that REPENTANCE IS CALLED FOR IN THE O.T. AND IN THE N.T.

Repentance is a change of mind toward sin... so to say that one need not change their mind toward sin, and are saved regardless of that is then accepting the starting doctrine from bringing orthodox Christians into the UNIVERSALIST heresy.

So, universalists doctrines must not be promoted here... they offend me, and orthodox Christians...

Sola gratia, sola fide are not universalism.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

look at their unltimate salvation...

2 thess 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.[c] 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.

I'm still not sure what you are saying or trying to indicate here.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Just saw this at WOF:
OldDogDiver
Hyper grace - greasy grace - is a deadly heresy. I just read Steve Hill's "Spiritual Avalanche". Should be required reading for all Christians.

We mature Christians may understand true grace, but those immature or not-yet-saved haven't a clue and are being lulled into a false salvation because of the way hyper-grace is preached.

Steve Hill: The Spiritual Avalanche That Could Kill Millions

http://www.stevehill.org/spiritual-avalanche.html

Here is one of the comments from that article...

"The only question I have is where does grace fit in this article? is God's grace now null and void or does it still remain valid, even after the born-again experience? With all the pathetic "attacks" against the "grace message/grace preachers", constantly slamming those who proclaim the goodness and grace of God, is grace no longer applicable to us as Christians? Even as a pastor, I once almost gave up in ministry (not Jesus) due to the stupidity of Christians attacking Christians. It seems they always wanted God's grace in their weakness, but God's judgment in another's weakness. This is sad. Let's talk about the heretical doctrines in the "holiness" movement for a change."

 

[vitaminC]

Have you noticed the new smear word. It’s the prefix “hyper.” Just put “hyper” in front of a word and you instantly demean it. Like hyper-faith (I know, I know, I’ve been guilty), hyper-Calvinist, hyper-Arminian, hyper-emotional, hyper-legalism, hyper-religious, hyper-whatever. Well, there’s a new one—hyper-grace. I just read an article from Charisma Magazine e:newsletter: “Hypergrace Movement Leaves Follower Questioning God’s Existence” . It’s as if accepting, living, and sharing grace is the first step toward unbelief. Actually, I thought it was the other way around. I thought where sin increased, grace abounded more. Silly me.

So, do you think it is possible to overdo the message of grace? If so, how?

Here is a quote from the David Ravenhill article. He sees it as a distortion of what the Bible teaches about grace. In the article he says that the hyper grace message says that Christians no longer need to repent because of grace. I guess he could have called it anti repentance or anti holiness ? I think the connection is the teaching that grace eliminates these other aspects of the christian faith. So it is hyper in the sense that it trumps all other biblical teachings and cancels them out.

One of the enemy’s wiles is to take something that is inherently good and seek to make it appear better. The hyper-grace message is a prime example of this. What is more amazing than grace? Nothing sets Christianity apart more than the message of grace. None of us would ever know our magnificent Savior and Lord without His redeeming, reconciling grace. There is no sect, cult or religion that has any doctrine comparable to it. Grace is found in Christ alone!
Little wonder, then, that the enemy has sought to improve on this glorious message by appearing to make it even more glorious, while at the same time lacing it with his deadly poison of deception and distortion.

I suppose one could say similar things about justification by faith or sola scriptura. When taken to an extreme where they cancel out all other Christian virtues they could be called hyper.

Is it possible to be too focused upon the scripture alone ? I think it could be. There is more to the Christian life than just the scripture.

I think the key is to incorporate all of the important truths of the Christian faith without canceling out the other important truths. Not an easy task. We want to teach and believe faith but not to the point where it cancels out works and vice versa. If we sit around and believe really strongly in all the important doctrines and refuse to help feed the poor around us , we have missed something. By the same token , if we sit around rejoicing in our forgiveness and shirk our Christian duties , we have missed something.

So I do think it is possible to overdo grace. God is the one who offers grace and it is not changed by what we do or think. So we are not changing or ruining grace by what we do. But we can focus on grace in a way where we think about it 24/7 and instead of allowing it to do the purpose that God gave it for , it can become an obsession that prevents us from growing in the other Christian virtues. We need all of God's truth , not just one thing taken to an extreme.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Here is a quote from the David Ravenhill article. He sees it as a distortion of what the Bible teaches about grace. In the article he says that the hyper grace message says that Christians no longer need to repent because of grace. I guess he could have called it anti repentance or anti holiness ? I think the connection is the teaching that grace eliminates these other aspects of the christian faith. So it is hyper in the sense that it trumps all other biblical teachings and cancels them out.

I suppose one could say similar things about justification by faith or sola scriptura. When taken to an extreme where they cancel out all other Christian virtues they could be called hyper.

Is it possible to be too focused upon the scripture alone ? I think it could be. There is more to the Christian life than just the scripture.

I think the key is to incorporate all of the important truths of the Christian faith without canceling out the other important truths. Not an easy task. We want to teach and believe faith but not to the point where it cancels out works and vice versa. If we sit around and believe really strongly in all the important doctrines and refuse to help feed the poor around us , we have missed something. By the same token , if we sit around rejoicing in our forgiveness and shirk our Christian duties , we have missed something.

So I do think it is possible to overdo grace. God is the one who offers grace and it is not changed by what we do or think. So we are not changing or ruining grace by what we do. But we can focus on grace in a way where we think about it 24/7 and instead of allowing it to do the purpose that God gave it for , it can become an obsession that prevents us from growing in the other Christian virtues. We need all of God's truth , not just one thing taken to an extreme.

I have found that the only way to find Christian virtue is to realize God's grace more fully. All my reasoning comes from the Bible and I see many people who try to improve upon it just like those in the letter to the Galatians did.

 

[vitaminC]

I have found that the only way to find Christian virtue is to realize God's grace more fully. All my reasoning comes from the Bible and I see many people who try to improve upon it just like those in the letter to the Galatians did.

I think that it depends upon what you mean by realizing God's grace more fully.


There is a certain amount of grace available to all. God gives us all air to breath and causes the sun to shine upon us all. But that is a very limited and general grace.

I believe that God's full grace is only made available when we do certain things. So in order to realize his grace more fully , we must co operate with his required means of grace.

The teaching that God holds some grace in reserve to be released upon certain conditions is the traditional viewpoint of historic Christianity. Almost every church teaches something along these lines. Otherwise we have what is called Universalism. Something asked about in one of the previous posts.

For example , Most churches teach that the grace of God is released by means of the Gospel message. The grace accompanies the preaching of the Gospel and not only provides forgiveness of sins , it also helps people to be able to exercise faith.

The Lutherans teach that grace is released through baptism and through communion. Methodists believe that grace is released through prayer , fasting , and repentance. Also by studying the scriptures and by works of mercy such as feeding the poor or visiting the sick. I am inclined to think that The Methodists are on to something.

For sure there are people who will add to what God said with their own " improvements " as you put it. But also it is for sure that doing the things that the scripture tells us to do is not adding our own improvements. It is us showing our faith and receiving his grace more fully.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

I think that it depends upon what you mean by realizing God's grace more fully.


There is a certain amount of grace available to all. God gives us all air to breath and causes the sun to shine upon us all. But that is a very limited and general grace.

I believe that God's full grace is only made available when we do certain things. So in order to realize his grace more fully , we must co operate with his required means of grace.

The teaching that God holds some grace in reserve to be released upon certain conditions is the traditional viewpoint of historic Christianity. Almost every church teaches something along these lines. Otherwise we have what is called Universalism. Something asked about in one of the previous posts.

For example , Most churches teach that the grace of God is released by means of the Gospel message. The grace accompanies the preaching of the Gospel and not only provides forgiveness of sins , it also helps people to be able to exercise faith.

The Lutherans teach that grace is released through baptism and through communion. Methodists believe that grace is released through prayer , fasting , and repentance. Also by studying the scriptures and by works of mercy such as feeding the poor or visiting the sick. I am inclined to think that The Methodists are on to something.

For sure there are people who will add to what God said with their own " improvements " as you put it. But also it is for sure that doing the things that the scripture tells us to do is not adding our own improvements. It is us showing our faith and receiving his grace more fully.

As long self reliance (or reliance on anything other than Christ's completed work) is not viewed to have any saving value, then I have no issues with any of what you dscribed.

 

[Gospel Guy]

Jesus said those that worship God MUST worship Him in Spirit and in Truth
What Jesus did at the Cross is Truth that opened up the way for us to walk in the Spirit, or host the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Receiving Jesus as your Savior is accepting truth, but receiving Him as Savior and as Lord is required for actual Salvation (doing what He says - Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.)

If we reject His leading and the Holy Spirit's ministry in our lives (the Spirit of Truth), then we are ignoring the Lord and are refusing to have a personal relationship with Him. This is why in the end Jesus tells some to depart and He never knew them.

Some today want to accept Jesus Christ as Savior (worship in Truth) which is the starting point. If they truly believe in what Jesus did at the Cross was for them personally, then they became born again.

But, if they do not come to Jesus so that they may have life (John 5:39,40) and actually engage Him in intimate relationship thru the Living Christ (the Holy Spirit Who is here with us now after Jesus went back to the Father)... then they are missing the entire point of not only the Cross, but also missing the point of why God created them in the first place... for God to share Himself with man in a covenant relationship (covenant = never exiting the relationship)

This is not being led by the Spirit... and I personally do not believe those folks will be allowed in to Heaven due to not having engaged the Lord in personal relationship and instead opted to allow the cares of this world and the lust of other things enter in and choke their relationship with the Lord out of their life (see Mark 4:14-20)

 

[vitaminC]

As long self reliance (or reliance on anything other than Christ's completed work) is not viewed to have any saving value, then I have no issues with any of what you dscribed.

we agree.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Jesus said those that worship God MUST worship Him in Spirit and in Truth
What Jesus did at the Cross is Truth that opened up the way for us to walk in the Spirit, or host the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Receiving Jesus as your Savior is accepting truth, but receiving Him as Savior and as Lord is required for actual Salvation (doing what He says - Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.)

If we reject His leading and the Holy Spirit's ministry in our lives (the Spirit of Truth), then we are ignoring the Lord and are refusing to have a personal relationship with Him. This is why in the end Jesus tells some to depart and He never knew them.

Some today want to accept Jesus Christ as Savior (worship in Truth) which is the starting point. If they truly believe in what Jesus did at the Cross was for them personally, then they became born again.

But, if they do not come to Jesus so that they may have life (John 5:39,40) and actually engage Him in intimate relationship thru the Living Christ (the Holy Spirit Who is here with us now after Jesus went back to the Father)... then they are missing the entire point of not only the Cross, but also missing the point of why God created them in the first place... for God to share Himself with man in a covenant relationship (covenant = never exiting the relationship)

This is not being led by the Spirit... and I personally do not believe those folks will be allowed in to Heaven due to not having engaged the Lord in personal relationship and instead opted to allow the cares of this world and the lust of other things enter in and choke their relationship with the Lord out of their life (see Mark 4:14-20)

Confessions of the elder brother.

 

[murjahel]

Many do try to add works to salvation... Yet, the price was paid for us on the cross. Not all obtain the grace offered by Jesus. We are not universalists who believe that all are saved, but we believe that Jesus died on the cross, so that all had opportunity to be saved.

What the Lord made plain in the Word, is that we are to 'repent'. That is not a work, it is an inner change of mind toward sin. Repent is the Greek word 'metanoia' and means to have a change of mind. Our minds while a sinner are led by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the desires of life... but... when we see the offer of salvation, and our hearts are changed to wanting salvation in Jesus, that change of mind allows the grace of God to flow upon us, washing away our sins, cleansing us.

That moment we are saved. We are saved, as the Bible says, 'UNTO GOOD WORKS'. Therefore the good works follow. The reality of our change of mind, the reality of the salvation upon us, is the works that begin to flow from us. 'FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD', and if we would go on in our many sins, not even feeling guilty about them, we did not have 'repent', and we did not receive the 'grace'.

One of the first works, after salvation is 'confession of sins'. I John 1:9, 'if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' This is written to Christians in I John. In John' s day there were some who denied they had sin, would not confess sins, claimed to be sinless, even when sins were shown in their lives. They felt salvation meant they could sin and it not be counted sin. John dealt with that group rather bluntly, and said 'if you say you have no sin, you lie...' That group were not even saved. There was no fruit of the grace they claimed.

Other works follow that confession. The confession of sins allows the Lord then to begin to cleanse away the damage sins did to us before salvation. IT is a process we continue in during our life with Him.

What brought us salvation was the grace of God. It was provided entirely by Jesus on the cross. His resurrection then guaranteed ours. Sins that follow salvation need 'repentance' too, and the confession of our weaknesses keep the salvation cleansing flowing upon us, and we are in a sanctification process. The only sin that removes us from salvation is the rejection of Jesus. If we remain in Him, as weak as we may be at times, we are still saved. Yet, God saves no one who does not want Him, and who would reject Him willfully, and determinately. Barring that stupid decision, we stay saved, and sometimes struggle with the flesh wanting us to change our mind from God back to sin. But we keep that 'repentant' heart, changed from wanting sin, to wanting Jesus, and we stay in His salvation plan.

 

[NorrinRadd]

James 5
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

This is speaking to those already saved. In the context of preceding posts, I was speaking of the alleged need to confess sins and request forgiveness in order to BECOME saved.

Of course, I still maintain that we "stay saved" the same way we "get saved" -- by faith in Jesus. So I see confession of sins as healthy -- it promotes honesty, humility, unity, interdependence -- but not necessary to remaining saved.

Luke 18
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast,saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other

Decent point, though it's a scenario occurring under a different Covenant.

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Again, this is directed to those already saved.

Acts 19:18

18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.

I've consulted several translations, and all agree with yours: They "confessed" their sins AFTER becoming believers, not TO BECOME believers.

I'm still content that Rom. 10:9 is sufficient. Of course there's nothing WRONG with confessing one's sin and asking God to forgive, but that is not necessary.

 

[Messy]

This is speaking to those already saved. In the context of preceding posts, I was speaking of the alleged need to confess sins and request forgiveness in order to BECOME saved.

Of course, I still maintain that we "stay saved" the same way we "get saved" -- by faith in Jesus. So I see confession of sins as healthy -- it promotes honesty, humility, unity, interdependence -- but not necessary to remaining saved.

Decent point, though it's a scenario occurring under a different Covenant.

Again, this is directed to those already saved.

I've consulted several translations, and all agree with yours: They "confessed" their sins AFTER becoming believers, not TO BECOME believers.

I'm still content that Rom. 10:9 is sufficient. Of course there's nothing WRONG with confessing one's sin and asking God to forgive, but that is not necessary.

Good points, never knew that.

 

[Gospel Guy]

Many do try to add works to salvation...

And many of these so-called extreme grace people call cultivating a close personal relationship with the Lord... "works", so they can live how they want to instead of being led by the Holy Ghost cause He's going to instruct them to quit living like the world lives and start living IN CHRIST

The flesh likes to hide behind certain scriptures so flesh can continue living large and in charge

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

And many of these so-called extreme grace people call cultivating a close personal relationship with the Lord... "works", so they can live how they want to instead of being led by the Holy Ghost cause He's going to instruct them to quit living like the world lives and start living IN CHRIST

The flesh likes to hide behind certain scriptures so flesh can continue living large and in charge

Is stereotyping a fruit of the Spirit?

 

[Gospel Guy]

Is stereotyping a fruit of the Spirit?

Is denying large chunks of the New Testament a fruit of the Spirit?

Jesus and Paul pointed out error... were they in error in doing so?

If nobody exhorts Christians to get back to what the entire New Testament teaches... satan will deceive the majority of Christians cause... he's got his very best deceptions playing right now and he's using scripture to do it!

Those that do not agree with the whole New Testament and would rather opt for just the parts that sound good to free themselves of any personal responsibility for their actions... are free to do so.

 

[Gospel Guy]

Here's a scripture you won't here to so called "extreme grace" teachers mention...

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (apparently, God remembers these sins since He just said there is no sacrifice for these... unless you use 1 John 1:9 and confess your sin, get cleansed by Jesus' Blood, and REPENT meaning turn away from your sin as in admit it and quit it!)
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Is denying large chunks of the New Testament a fruit of the Spirit?

Jesus and Paul pointed out error... were they in error in doing so?

If nobody exhorts Christians to get back to what the entire New Testament teaches... satan will deceive the majority of Christians cause... he's got his very best deceptions playing right now and he's using scripture to do it!

Those that do not agree with the whole New Testament and would rather opt for just the parts that sound good to free themselves of any personal responsibility for their actions... are free to do so.

Well Paul called those who attacked the grace message slanderers.

"And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, "The more we sin, the better it is!" Those who say such things deserve to be condemned." - Romans 3:8


I consider myself a hyper-grace believer and personally, I don't like being slandered, but it sure sounds like that is what you are doing. You don't even know me, yet you claim to know what I do and the motivation of my heart from which I do it...all of which you paint in a disparaging way. Yet, I don't think the same way of you because you are not a hyper grace believer.