Hyper-Grace ??????????

jiminpa

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I think we go wrong from start on this topic, since we all think of grace at least a little differently. A calvinist thinks of grace as compulsory salvation, and all reformation theology is tainted by that view of grace, which is not really grace at all, but a perverse view of mercy. Most evangelicals are influenced by the reformation's view of grace as being limited to mercy, which is undoubtedly a component of grace.

It seems as though grace is being viewed in this topic as forgiveness, and freedom, and again those are components. Even in that view the overall context of the whole Bible points to positive freedom that leaves us free to walk with God, more than just being free from whatever we want to invoke our freedom against. But Biblically even that falls short.

2 Cor 9:8 says that God makes grace abound so that we can abound in every good work. By that view grace is not freedom from, but empowerment to. So the view that there is no such thing as too much grace is correct, when grace is understood Biblically.

Striving for superficial piety and idolatry in the name of "grace" both kill equally.
 
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The Unforgettable Fire

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I think we go wrong from start on this topic, since we all think of grace at least a little differently. A calvinist thinks of grace as compulsory salvation, and all reformation theology is tainted by that view of grace, which is not really grace at all, but a perverse view of mercy. Most evangelicals are influenced by the reformation's view of grace as being limited to mercy, which is undoubtedly a component of grace.

It seems as though grace is being viewed in this topic as forgiveness, and freedom, and again those are components. Even in that view the overall context of the whole Bible points to positive freedom that leaves us free to walk with God, more than just being free from whatever we want to invoke our freedom against. But Biblically even that falls short.

2 Cor 9:8 says that God makes grace abound so that we can abound in every good work. By that view grace is not freedom from, but empowerment to. So the view that there is no such thing as too much grace is correct, when grace is understood Biblically.

Striving for superficial piety and idolatry in the name of "grace" both kill equally.

Well I''ll say this. I have seen Christian after Christian and church after church talk about living a certain way and every single one of them end up being a lot of big talk and no real results.

I have however known a place in God where the love of God was a constant, continual reality and without trying, without even being cognizant about it, my life was completely free of what most in the church classify as sin. That's because sin is a cheap immitation of a relationship with God and when you have the real deal, the immitation loses its appeal.

Bottom line: if you focus on your performance you will never get there. If however you forget about your performance and truly embrace the grace and love of God, it will happen on its own and you will know it is the grace of God that frees you from sin.

This describes exactly what I have experienced.

5-8 Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Those who trust God's action in them find that God's Spirit is in them--living and breathing God! Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life. Focusing on the self is the opposite of focusing on God. Anyone completely absorbed in self ignores God, ends up thinking more about self than God. That person ignores who God is and what he is doing. And God isn't pleased at being ignored.

9-11But if God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly be thinking more of yourself than of him. Anyone, of course, who has not welcomed this invisible but clearly present God, the Spirit of Christ, won't know what we're talking about. But for you who welcome him, in whom he dwells--even though you still experience all the limitations of sin--you yourself experience life on God's terms. It stands to reason, doesn't it, that if the alive-and-present God who raised Jesus from the dead moves into your life, he'll do the same thing in you that he did in Jesus, bringing you alive to himself? When God lives and breathes in you (and he does, as surely as he did in Jesus), you are delivered from that dead life. With his Spirit living in you, your body will be as alive as Christ's!" - Romans 8:5-11 MSG
 
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NorrinRadd

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Have you noticed the new smear word. It’s the prefix “hyper.” Just put “hyper” in front of a word and you instantly demean it. Like hyper-faith (I know, I know, I’ve been guilty), hyper-Calvinist, hyper-Arminian, hyper-emotional, hyper-legalism, hyper-religious, hyper-whatever. Well, there’s a new one—hyper-grace. ...

The term is not new. I heard it back in the '80s. However, I don't clearly recall its meaning. I think it was probably "greasy grace," or some such thing -- which is pretty much the way many people would characterize my own essentially antinomian views.
 
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Gospel Guy

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So, do you think it is possible to overdo the message of grace? If so, how? :)

Yes, when they teach it in a way that leads people to believe they can live in sin and still go to Heaven! Numerous TV preachers are doing this and raking in big bucks cause they be ticklin people's ears who love to hear that they can live in sin and still go to Heaven. What's not to love 'bout that eh?

This is the great end times deception that is causing the love of many to wax cold where they leave their first love, Jesus Christ!
 
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Messy

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Yes, when they teach it in a way that leads people to believe they can live in sin and still go to Heaven! Numerous TV preachers are doing this and raking in big bucks cause they be ticklin people's ears who love to hear that they can live in sin and still go to Heaven. What's not to love 'bout that eh?

This is the great end times deception that is causing the love of many to wax cold where they leave their first love, Jesus Christ!

One of the great end times deceptions I think, the other one is legalism. That doesn't make people loveable and holy either.
 
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lismore

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Yes, when they teach it in a way that leads people to believe they can live in sin and still go to Heaven! Numerous TV preachers are doing this and raking in big bucks cause they be ticklin people's ears who love to hear that they can live in sin and still go to Heaven. What's not to love 'bout that eh?

This is the great end times deception that is causing the love of many to wax cold where they leave their first love, Jesus Christ!

Everyone is living in sin, there is only one sinless one~Jesus Christ. If it was possible to live out of sin then there would be no need for the cross. There is no-one who does what is right, not even one.

People loose their first love when they forget that they were sinners and are sinners and try to focus on their own righteousness, which is but filthy rags. Only by the grace and mercy of God are we saved.

Without God's mercy we are lost. 'have mercy on me a sinner'
 
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Messy

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For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God!


Grace is hyper or greasy to those who have not received it.
That's a good one. Telling people God is well pleased with them sinning, because it's not a sin and you have to interprete the Bible different isn't grace teaching at all. Neither telling people they don't have to ask forgiveness for their sins or repent when they come to Christ.
 
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lismore

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That's a good one. Telling people God is well pleased with them sinning, because it's not a sin and you have to interprete the Bible different isn't grace teaching at all.

God is the righteous judge, God also sees what is unseen, he knows everything and can judge righteously.

If we judge one another based on what sins we believe each other to be committing it's not a righteous judgement.

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?



Neither telling people they don't have to ask forgiveness for their sins or repent when they come to Christ.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

I highlighted the word 'they' in your post because it's that 'they' that makes it untrue.

It's not just a they thing, it's a 'we' thing. All have sinned. You, me and everyone.

Those who coin the phrase 'greasy grace' are really looking down on others and judging them when in fact those people are just as much sinners as the people they are trying to judge.

'All have sinned'. It's not a 'you' or a 'they' it is us all.

Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else (Galatians 6:4)

God Bless:)
 
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Messy

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But I read somewhere there are really people who teach this and leave the repentance part and ask Him to forgive you out of the sinner's prayer. Never heard it myself in any churchmeeting though.
I saw someone on a forum who says God is fine with the homosexual lifestyle (yup, that's on Dutch christian forums) and gay inappropriate content and accepts you the way you are. I think that is what they mean with hyper grace. But that's not grace at all.

My pastor warned us for the teaching of Joseph Prince

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090419003014AAlgcMn

The salvation prayer contains no apology or sense of guilt for sin.

(p.314) "Lord Jesus, thank you for dieing for me on the cross. Your precious blood washes me clean of my every sin. You are my Lord and saviour, now and forever. I believe that you rose from the dead and that you are alive today. Because of your finished work, I am now a beloved child of God and heaven is my home. Thank You for giving me eternal life, and filling my heart with peace and joy."
 
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lismore

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But I read somewhere there are really people who teach this and leave the repentance part and ask Him to forgive you out of the sinner's prayer. Never heard it myself in any churchmeeting though.
I saw someone on a forum who says God is fine with the homosexual lifestyle (yup, that's on Dutch christian forums) and gay inappropriate content and accepts you the way you are. I think that is what they mean with hyper grace. But that's not grace at all.

There are some odd views on the internet, more so than in a church. But that does not means grace is hyper or greasy.

:)
 
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Gospel Guy

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One of the great end times deceptions I think, the other one is legalism. That doesn't make people loveable and holy either.

On the other hand, the Gospel is about being in a relationship with the Father thru Jesus Christ, by the Holy Ghost. Those that want to keep the door open to walking in the flesh (living like the world) very often claim that walking in the Spirit (actually having a relationship with God) is legalism.

In today's modern, commercialized church many want to receive Jesus as their Savior so they can miss hell but not that many want to receive Jesus as LORD (those that are led by the Spirit are the sons of God) which means not too many want to do what He says do.

Jesus said, if you love me you'll keep my commandments (John 14:15) which is a problem for those that desire to live after the flesh instead of after the Spirit where they actually walk in an intimate relationship with the Father.

Jesus said those that worship God MUST worship Him in Spirit and Truth (John 4:24), not in flesh and this world's wisdom which is earthly, sensual, and devilish (James 3:15)

Walking in the Spirit versus walking in the flesh is what divides the sheep from the goats which Romans 6 thru 7 is all about. Interesting stuff to ponder indeed.
 
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NorrinRadd

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But I read somewhere there are really people who teach this and leave the repentance part and ask Him to forgive you out of the sinner's prayer. Never heard it myself in any churchmeeting though.

Where in Scripture does one even find this so-called "sinner's prayer"? Where are we told that in order to be saved, we have to "ask" for forgiveness?



I saw someone on a forum who says God is fine with the homosexual lifestyle (yup, that's on Dutch christian forums) and gay inappropriate content and accepts you the way you are. I think that is what they mean with hyper grace. But that's not grace at all.

What exactly is the "homosexual lifestyle"?

The Law of God boils down to "Love one another" or "Love your neighbor as yourself," which equates to "Treat others as you want others to treat you."
How is homosexuality necessarily a violation of that? (I can easily see "militant" homosexuality as a violation. I can reasonably see promiscuous sex of any kind as selfish, and therefore a violation. But I'm not clear on how homosex is *necessarily* a violation.)




Is he the guy who looks like Freddy Prinze? I've never listened to him.


The salvation prayer contains no apology or sense of guilt for sin.

So?


(p.314) "Lord Jesus, thank you for dieing for me on the cross. Your precious blood washes me clean of my every sin. You are my Lord and saviour, now and forever. I believe that you rose from the dead and that you are alive today. Because of your finished work, I am now a beloved child of God and heaven is my home. Thank You for giving me eternal life, and filling my heart with peace and joy."

Sounds Scriptural to me.
 
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murjahel

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Where in Scripture does one even find this so-called "sinner's prayer"? Where are we told that in order to be saved, we have to "ask" for forgiveness?


John the Baptist came with a message of 'repent, for the kingdom of God is nigh...' When John was put into prison that stopped his message of 'repent', so Jesus began His sermons from that time on, with 'repent', we are told in the Word of God.

John sought to have repenters... He longed for a congregation of repenters. The preaching of 'repentance' is still the message we preach to sinners.

The word "repent" comes from "metanoia" which refers to a real change of mind toward sin, and to sin's root cause.


Repentance is:
not just a seeking of different circumstances,
not a sigh of regret,
not just a remorse,
not simply a regret of the trouble that sin led one to.

Repentance is a real change of mind and attitude toward sin and its cause...

The repenters were recognized by their confessions of sins. Confession of sin was a new thing for Israel. They had grown accustomed to having only one day a year on which to repent of sins, the Day of Atonement. Some, a few, would go to the burnt altar at the temple to offer sacrifice for individual confession of sins, but that altar was ignored by most, except on the Day of Atonement.

There was not a practice of spontaneous confession following the committing of sin, and of feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit. John the baptist came and opened their eyes to the sins of the people and demanded a baptism to show to the world that they had already repented their sins.

John emphasized in his preaching a personal responsibility and repentance. The Jewish people had trained themselves to think that because they were descendants of Abraham, they were saved. Many in our times, think they live in a Christian nation, go to a church, and have a Bible in the home, so they must be Christian and headed for heaven. Many are not.

John preached:
Matthew 3:9
"Do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our Father..."

His baptizing of the repentant in water was just a beginning of change in their lives, for he preached a bringing forth of "fruits worthy of repentance..." (Luke 3:8).

To John, repentance, water baptism, were to be followed by radical change in life. John instituted a
water baptism as a symbol of repentance and dedication to the new kingdom about to come...

John saw himself as the forerunner of such a kingdom.

II Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Worldly sorrow works death in our hearts. It is damaging beyond measure. We see it in any sinner, and too often in many of the saints. It is grief, guilt, shame, sense of failure, frustration, anger, loneliness, distress, fear, etc. Lives get full of those things, since we live in this sinful world. Worldly sorrow works death, so it needs vitally to be healed.


Yet, repentance, which is begun by ‘godly sorrow’, leads us to something that is fought more than depression, fear, etc.

Godly sorrow leads us to repentance.

To many, that word ‘repentance’ is fearful, dreaded, avoided, and treated like a plague. The result of not letting ‘godly sorrow’ lead gently to repentance, is the ‘worldly sorrow’ that brings spiritual, and physical death. Yet, foolishly, to the max, people fear and avoid repentance.

The truly revived church will declare a message consistent with Scripture.
 
They will preach a message of mankind being created in God's image.

They will teach that mankind is destined to someday rule and reign with Jesus.

They will teach that sin caused a fall from that position.

The wrath of God therefore abides on all who do not find atonement for sin.

The good news of God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ is preached with enthusiasm.

The real need of the world is salvation from the power of sin. This is emphasized in the sermons of any true revival. Atonement is the central message of sermons in a revival. Repentance is the choice we make to enter into the atonement that Jesus provided.

Peter preached the first sermon of the church age with the same 'repent' message.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The apostate church of Laodicea, that is described in Revelation 3, sees the main emphasis of the church to be a prosperity message. This is wrong and will not result in real revival. Jesus is seen on the outside of that church knocking upon its door.

Jesus said that the admitting of their poverty, blindness, wretchedness, misery, nakedness of spirit would bring them to a new life... Repentance of our sins, is still key to victory in Jesus.


Revelation 3:17 (KJV)
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

With the atoning, sin cleansing, and sin conquering message, will be a message on divine healing, gifts of the Spirit, blessing and spiritual prosperity, compassionate service, intercession, miracles, and faith through trials. First, there must be a desire to see souls be saved and enter the kingdom of the Lord.

The true message of 'repentance' has true power. One must beware of "a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..." There is a true message that has power. In fact, it is impossible to be a Christian without encountering the power of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to convict of sin, and repentance is the right answer to that conviction.

The Spirit convicts of sin. (John 16:8-11)
We are born again by the Spirit's power. (John 3:3-8)
It is impossible to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, except by the Spirit. (I Corinthians 12:3)
We respond with repenting of sins, and asking for entrance into this kingdom.

'as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God...'
 
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NorrinRadd

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"Murjahel" said a whole snot-load of stuff that never came close to actually answering this:

"Originally Posted by NorrinRadd
Where in Scripture does one even find this so-called "sinner's prayer"? Where are we told that in order to be saved, we have to "ask" for forgiveness?"
 
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Messy

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Where in Scripture does one even find this so-called "sinner's prayer"? Where are we told that in order to be saved, we have to "ask" for forgiveness?
The sinner's prayer is not in the Bible, but repentance and confessing your sins is.
Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out
 
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