Hymn to the Theotokos

HTacianas

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What specific objections do you have to this hymn being part of a church service?

It is truly meet to bless you, O Theotokos, ever-blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos we magnify you!
 
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What specific objections do you have to this hymn being part of a church service?

It is truly meet to bless you, O Theotokos, ever-blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos we magnify you!
Well, since I directed the singing of this very hymn this morning during a Church service, and since I often do just that, I don't suppose I have any objections.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi HT, my first objection is found in the Book of Romans, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" .. Romans 3:23.

My second objection would probably be this, that the Lord gave the nod to His cousin, John the Baptist (not His mom), as the greatest human being ever born, yet He told us that John was still less than the least of those in the Kingdom of Heaven (which certainly would have included Cherubim and Seraphim .. Matthew 11:11).

It also seems to me that a never-intended honor is paid to Mary whenever she is referred to as "the mother of God", instead of, "the mother of God, according to the Manhood", as we find in the wording of the Chalcedon creed.

--David
 
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... and furthermore, there has been many a physical prostration and veneration of her this week (as of the 15th of the month), right here where our tetrapod usually is:

dormition.jpg
 
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Hi HT, my first objection is found in the Book of Romans, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" .. Romans 3:23.

My second objection would probably be this, that the Lord gave the nod to His cousin, John the Baptist (not His mom), as the greatest human being ever born, yet He told us that John was still less than the least of those in the Kingdom of Heaven (which certainly would have included Cherubim and Seraphim .. Matthew 11:11).

It also seems to me that a never-intended honor is paid to Mary whenever she is referred to as "the mother of God", instead of, "the mother of God, according to the Manhood", as we find in the wording of the Chalcedon creed.

--David
It seems to us that you're not aware of the most highly significant transition in the status of mankind that occurred with the Ascension of our Lord, along with not being aware of some other things as well. She is mother of God according to the Person (and there is only One Person in Christ -- the Divine Logos of God). Hence, she is indeed the Mother of God the Word. If she sinned and fell short of the glory of God, such sins were not "unto death" (i.e. and intentional turning away from God). With proper Theological understanding comes proper veneration of the Theotokos, as is prophesied in the "magnificat" Scripture, where our Lord's mother says that "all generations shall call me blessed". This prophecy is fulfilled in each successive generation of the Orthodox faithful, from the Apostles onward, until today.
 
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dzheremi

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Is it assumed that someone should have objections to such a perfectly fine and Orthodox hymn? Strange. I not only have no problem with it, I would proclaim it myself were it part of our tradition.

As it is we do not have that exact prayer, but something similar forms the introduction to the Creed:

We exalt you, the Mother of the true Light, and we glorify you, O saint and Theotokos, for you brought forth unto us the Savior of the whole world; He came and saved our souls.

Glory to You, our Master, our King, Christ, the pride of the Apostles, the crown of the martyrs, the joy of the righteous, the steadfastness of the churches, and the forgiveness of sins.

We proclaim the Holy Trinity in one Godhead. We worship Him. We glorify Him. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord bless. Amen.
 
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St_Worm2

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It seems to us that you're not aware of the most highly significant transition in the status of mankind that occurred with the Ascension of our Lord, along with not being aware of some other things as well.
Hi TrueFiction1, I am aware of the status change that will occur when we leave this life for the next one, but I was unaware of a status change to human beings due to the Lord's Ascension (for those of us still living on this side of Glory). Where is this detailed for us in the Bible? Thanks!
She is mother of God according to the Person (and there is only One Person in Christ -- the Divine Logos of God). Hence, she is indeed the Mother of God the Word.
I must admit that I am not completely following you in all that you just said above (I would appreciate your help with that, if possible, especially if you are saying that Mary is more than Jesus' mother, according to His Manhood). I do have this related question that might help me understand where you are coming from, do you believe that God the Word is from everlasting?
If she sinned and fell short of the glory of God, such sins were not "unto death" (i.e. and intentional turning away from God).
Yet she still believed that she was in need of a "Savior" .. Luke 1:47.
With proper Theological understanding comes proper veneration of the Theotokos, as is prophesied in the "magnificat" Scripture, where our Lord's mother says that "all generations shall call me blessed".
And so we have :)

"Calling" her blessed and "worshiping/venerating" her, a creature, are hardly the same thing though, nor do I believe that she ever intended to be the focus of the kind or level of attention that she's so often received (because the veneration of Mary that I've read about and have been witness to* over the years magnifies her, not her Son .. which is something that I cannot believe she would tolerate if she still walked among us).

--David

*(for clarity's sake, my experience with/understanding of Mary worship/veneration has been strictly through the RCC)
 
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Hi TrueFiction1, I am aware of the status change that will occur when we leave this life for the next one, but I was unaware of a status change to human beings due to the Lord's Ascension (for those of us still living on this side of Glory). Where is this detailed for us in the Bible? Thanks!
2 Corinthians 3:18 and see John 16:7

I must admit that I am not completely following you in all that you just said above (I would appreciate your help with that, if possible, especially if you are saying that Mary is more than Jesus' mother, according to His Manhood). I do have this related question that might help me understand where you are coming from, do you believe that God the Word is from everlasting?
God the Word is from everlasting, and the ever-virgin Mary is His mother - according to His Person-hood, which is eternally existing. There are not two distinct persons in Christ; one Divine and the other human. There is only one Person - God the Word. Mary is she who gave birth to God the Word. The Word is eternally existing, but took human nature upon Himself, as he was conceived of the virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit, grew within her womb and was born of her. Hence, she is "Theotokos". She gave birth to God the Word after He "became flesh" (john 1:14).

Yet she still believed that she was in need of a "Savior" .. Luke 1:47.
Yes. Everyone born under the ancestral curse, as she was, needs a savior.

And so we have :)
That's not quite accurate, because there is a general, or overall lack of awareness in reformed tradition regarding just how unique a person the Theotokos truly is, and failure to realize her very real, very powerful significance in the kingdom of Heaven and in the life of the Church militant (i.e. those of us who are still fighting the good fight here on earth).

"Calling" her blessed and "worshiping/venerating" her, a creature, are hardly the same thing though, nor do I believe that she ever intended to be the focus of the kind or level of attention that she's so often received (because the veneration of Mary that I've read about and have been witness to* over the years magnifies her, not her Son .. which is something that I cannot believe she would tolerate if she still walked among us).
the veneration of her is not the same as the worship of God. You do realize, though, that when one who Loves God so much that they no longer have any sin in them, but have become, through repentance, pure vessels of the Holy Spirit who show forth the light of God, that they, having become like unto God, are worthy of veneration because God is in them?

In sum, even veneration of humans in their Godly goodness (which is the Holy Spirit working in them) is, in fact, worship being directed to the only God; the source of all that is good.
 
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redleghunter

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That's not quite accurate, because there is a general, or overall lack of awareness in reformed tradition regarding just how unique a person the Theotokos truly is, and failure to realize her very real, very powerful significance in the kingdom of Heaven and in the life of the Church militant (i.e. those of us who are still fighting the good fight here on earth).
The council of Ephesus refuted Nestorius.

As such that is why the title Theotokos was bestowed as Nestorius’ doctrine divided the Person of Jesus Christ the Divine Logos. The council was not declaring a title for veneration but to establish orthodox Christology.

The council was stating the mystery and miracle of the Incarnation of the Truly God Truly human (man) Jesus Christ two natures One Person.

Nestorius was fixated on dividing Jesus into two persons. Yet as with many highly intelligent theologians he failed to acknowledge there is mystery. He asked the right question...How could Blessed Mary be called Theotokos when the Divine Logos who is Everlasting and eternal God the Son? It’s a good question but the Holy Scriptures are clear. There is no division of the Person of Jesus Christ. It is a mystery but a fact of God’s Redemptive Purpose.

I know Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics put an emphasis on Theotokos as a title worthy of veneration. However, the title is to confirm orthodox Christology. It’s about Christ and glorifying Him.
 
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The council of Ephesus refuted Nestorius.

As such that is why the title Theotokos was bestowed as Nestorius’ doctrine divided the Person of Jesus Christ the Divine Logos. The council was not declaring a title for veneration but to establish orthodox Christology.

The council was stating the mystery and miracle of the Incarnation of the Truly God Truly human (man) Jesus Christ two natures One Person.

Nestorius was fixated on dividing Jesus into two persons. Yet as with many highly intelligent theologians he failed to acknowledge there is mystery. He asked the right question...How could Blessed Mary be called Theotokos when the Divine Logos who is Everlasting and eternal God the Son? It’s a good question but the Holy Scriptures are clear. There is no division of the Person of Jesus Christ. It is a mystery but a fact of God’s Redemptive Purpose.

I know Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics put an emphasis on Theotokos as a title worthy of veneration. However, the title is to confirm orthodox Christology. It’s about Christ and glorifying Him.
What is true now has always been true and always will be: She is "ever-blessed and most pure and the mother of our God". Just like it says in the hymn. Nestorius was questioning/rejecting what was already lodged into the pious consciousness of the Church, just like Arius did before him when he rejected the level of honor being bestowed on Christ by insisting that the Logos was a created being. Nestorius did not agree with the level of honor that was being bestowed upon Mary in the Church, and began to teach against it by stating that it was improper to call her "mother of God".
 
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icxn

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...
My second objection would probably be this, that the Lord gave the nod to His cousin, John the Baptist (not His mom), as the greatest human being ever born, yet He told us that John was still less than the least of those in the Kingdom of Heaven (which certainly would have included Cherubim and Seraphim .. Matthew 11:11).
And ever since the Holy Spirit was sent to us we are no longer simply born of women but are (re-) born of God. You will find more than one verse that attests to this. So this is not some future condition. One of those verses (1 John 3:9) also refutes your first objection. There's also that verse from Psalm 45:9 that has her standing at the right hand of God whereas the Seraphim are round about Him (Isa. 6:2 LXX), a position inferior to hers.
 
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Phil 1:21

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What specific objections do you have to this hymn being part of a church service?

It is truly meet to bless you, O Theotokos, ever-blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos we magnify you!
If the church I attend decided that it would rather glorify and worship/venerate the creation instead of the Creator, I'd find another church...again
 
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icxn

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If the church I attend decided that it would rather glorify and worship/venerate the creation instead of the Creator, I'd find another church...again
Your Creator doesn't shy from glorifying those who glorify Him (1 Sam. 2:30), why should we?
 
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dzheremi

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If the church I attend decided that it would rather glorify and worship/venerate the creation instead of the Creator, I'd find another church...again

And if God has glorified her Himself? Then what?

We exalt her not of herself, but as the mother of the True Light, in the same way that any saint is given proper veneration in recognition of what God has wrought in them and through them. And in whom is that more clear than the Theotokos herself, who carried the Lord in her blessed womb, who is the new tabernacle?

I could understand this view, my friend, if the incarnation did not in fact happen, but since it did, are we not to live and sing praises in recognition of that fact?

How does implicitly denying the incarnation give honor to God?
 
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Phil 1:21

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I could understand this view, my friend, if the incarnation did not in fact happen, but since it did, are we not to live and sing praises in recognition of that fact?
Praises to the Creator? Absolutely. To the creation? Nope.

How does implicitly denying the incarnation give honor to God?
If you find someone who does that you should ask them and let us know.
 
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dzheremi

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Praises to the Creator? Absolutely. To the creation? Nope.

This is a false choice not reflective of the post. The question is about praises to the Creator which recognize His work in His creation (people, places, and things sanctified by God).

If you find someone who does that you should ask them and let us know.

The graceless approach of the anti-saint, anti-holiness form of Christianity does this. With all due respect, you are doing this when you argue as you have. Either Christ was truly incarnate and by His holy life, death, and resurrection has transformed and sanctified the whole creation, or He is not and He has not. There is no consistent in-between where God's presence in humanity in the very real, incarnate God-man Jesus Christ may mean a lot to you personally, but the second we talk about His having transformed anyone or anything else it becomes heresy and taking away praise due to the Creator. No. That is an implicit denial of the incarnation, because it denies the true presence of the Lord in and among His people, the holy and blessed saints -- most of all the holy, full of glory, ever-virgin Theotokos St. Mary, who literally carried Him in her womb, and truly gave birth to God the Logos.

All praise is due to the Lord our God. As we proclaim in the communion hymn, we praise God in all His saints.


Praise God in all His saints.

+ Praise Him in the firmament of His power.

Praise Him for His mighty acts.

+ Praise Him according to the multitudes of His greatness.

Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet.

+ Praise Him with psaltery and harp.

Praise Him with timbrel and chorus.

+ Praise Him with strings and organs.

Praise Him with pleasant sounding cymbals.

+ Praise Him upon the cymbals of joy.

Let every thing that has breath praise the name of the Lord our God.

+ Glory be to the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. +

Now and forever and unto the age of all ages Amen.

+ Alleluia, Alleluia, glory be to our God.

Alleluia, Alleluia, glory be to our God.

+ O Jesus Christ, the Son of God, hear us and have mercy upon us.

+++

Would all of the means by which we praise the Lord our God according to the Psalm be similarly rejected, on account of their not being God Himself?

I would not know what to say to that other than that the Orthodox Church does not do "four bare walls a sermon" sort of Christianity, so we may just be too far apart in our conceptions of what the religion actually is to come together on anything. And for those who view things in an incarnational manner (this is the view of my Church, and I have to assume the OP's Church as well, as in this I cannot see how we would differ) it is not only acceptable that we should praise St. Mary the birth-giver, but absolutely necessary as an affirmation of Christ's indivisible union in the incarnation, His true humanity and divinity, and His true presence among us, over and against those who would divide Him.
 
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Phil 1:21

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This is a false choice not reflective of the post. The question is about praises to the Creator which recognize His work in His creation (people, places, and things sanctified by God).
But it's not the Creator being praised. From your hymn...
True Theotokos we magnify you!
Moving on.......

And for those who view things in an incarnational manner (this is the view of my Church, and I have to assume the OP's Church as well, as in this I cannot see how we would differ) it is not only acceptable that we should praise St. Mary the birth-giver, but absolutely necessary as an affirmation of Christ's indivisible union in the incarnation, His true humanity and divinity, and His true presence among us, over and against those who would divide Him.
First you say you're not praising the creation (Mary) then you say you are. Could you maybe let me know when you decide which it is? Thanks.
 
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dzheremi

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Snark aside, again the point is that all praises are due to the Creator, our primary point of difference apparently being that for the Orthodox it is perfectly sound that He be praised through the saints who testify to His presence in creation (in themselves and their acts, in the places with which they are associated like monasteries and other places of pilgrimage, etc.), whereas others treat this as heresy or as though this is violating some standard of worship that excludes His true presence from the actually existing world in which we all live.

In which case, what is the incarnation? Why did it happen? Did it have any effect other than upon Jesus personally, or did He assume the human nature so that we may be transformed, blessed, and redeemed together with the whole creation? (Recall here St. Gregory Nazianzen's famous quote "That which is not assumed is not saved.")

And if He did (and we believe He did), then are the saints true examples of this incarnational salvation in action, or does everything continue on as it did? Did Christ actually 'fail' at being our incarnate Savior?
 
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Phil 1:21

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Snark aside, again the point is that all praises are due to the Creator...
Which is what I said at the start.
...our primary point of difference apparently being that for the Orthodox it is perfectly sound that He be praised through the saints who testify to His presence in creation (in themselves and their acts, in the places with which they are associated like monasteries and other places of pilgrimage, etc.), whereas others treat this as heresy or as though this is violating some standard of worship that excludes His true presence from the actually existing world in which we all live.
Okay, but I really have no interest in debating Orthodox theology. I'm not Orthodox, never been Orthodox, have no desire to become Orthodox, and have zero interest in trying to tell Orthodox people what they should or should not believe. Maybe someone else will come along who has an interest in the debate you seem to desire.

Although that being the case, is it really an Orthodox belief that not praising the creation (Mary) is tantamount to denying the Incarnation? Or is that more of a personal opinion. I have to say, in all my previous decades in the RCC where praising Mary is like professional sport, I've never heard that one before.
 
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