Hydoxychlorquinine does not appear to be an answer:

[sfs]

Isn't that the same article that I linked in the OP? From a different site of course.

Yes, it is. Sorry about that -- too many articles floating about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

and...I though you were referring to scripture...interesting what gets lost in translation...

Bottom line...

If you are so afraid of this treatment...so unsure of it's effectiveness...then don't take it...that's your choice...some people aren't satisfied with any amount of evidence to serve as proof...so be it.

It's unlikely I would need to take it...but certainly in future could take it as a preventative measure. More importantly are my friends and family who may need the life saving benefits evident from those being treated in the past, present (real time) and future with HCQ+.

There is also the option of getting the antibodies from those whom have already had the illness and are now immune. Blood is being taken for that very purpose and there are other treatments being looked at as well.

A survey of over 2000 doctors from many different countries have stated that HCQ+ should be used as a treatment for the illness.

I am not afraid. I am pointing out that the actual evidence does not seem to support it. That there is no reason to use it. You yourself are treating medicine as magic. That should go against your Christian teachings. Read the article in the OP or the one that @sfs linked.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, it is. Sorry about that -- too many articles floating about.

No problem. I took it as a compliment.

 

[Zanting]

I am not afraid. I am pointing out that the actual evidence does not seem to support it. That there is no reason to use it. You yourself are treating medicine as magic. That should go against your Christian teachings. Read the article in the OP or the one that @sfs linked.

Then you're not looking at it...or for it...and that's your choice. You also don't acknowlwdge the data that's already out there ...you simply dismiss it as insignificant, unreliable, unsupported and deny the accumulating evidence. That's that whole negative narrative being promoted causing fear and anxiety.

Furthermore, downplaying and outright lying about the supporting data will cost lives, and personally, I don't want to be any part of that narrative whatsoever. The longer people deny a positive treatment is safe and available to prevent death from an illness like this, the more those who need it and don't get treatment will die.

Medicine has nothing to do with magic or anyone's Christianity...people make it about that...just like they try to make it political...

 

[Michael]

A small trial finds that hydroxychloroquine is not effective for treating coronavirus

Jumping at hopeful solutions is rarely a good idea.

Between the two French studies on the one Chinese study, the total cases studied is less than 130 patients. It's hard to draw any conclusions from such a small sampling.

The first (successful French) study of a little more than 80 patients seems to be questionable due to the fact that it included "mild case" patients. Statistically speaking, approximately 80 percent of all patients tend to be mild cases and clear up on their own. One person died in that study, which is probably about the statistical average fatality rate of the virus when including the error bars.

The second French study (you just cited) was a much smaller study of only 11 patients of severe cases and showed no clear benefits. The Chinese study which also shown no clear benefit included about 30 patients total.

It's really hard to draw a clear conclusion from a few very small case studies.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then you're not looking at it...or for it...and that's your choice. You also don't acknowlwdge the data that's already out there ...you simply dismiss it as insignificant, unreliable, unsupported and deny the accumulating evidence. That's that whole negative narrative being promoted causing fear and anxiety.

Furthermore, downplaying and outright lying about the supporting data will cost lives, and personally, I don't want to be any part of that narrative whatsoever. The longer people deny a positive treatment is safe and available to prevent death from an illness like this, the more those who need it and don't get treatment will die.

Medicine has nothing to do with magic or anyone's Christianity...people make it about that...just like they try to make it political...

Try to post a proper study. I see claims I see no links. sfs is in the business. Or at least a closely related one. He would understand what a proper study is. Independently he posted the same article as I did as the only valid study so far.

The "studies" that claim it helps that I have seen are based far too heavily on healthy people that would almost certainly have survived regardless of whether they took that medicine or not. Covid-19 is not a death sentence. That people survive is not unusual. A proper test would focus more on those that are far less likely to survive. Those are the people that need help and that was what the study I linked focused on. It did not appear to help.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Between the two French studies on the one Chinese study, the total cases studied is less than 130 patients. It's hard to draw any conclusions from such a small sampling.

The first (successful French) study of a little more than 80 patients seems to be questionable due to the fact that it included "mild case" patients. Statistically speaking, approximately 80 percent of all patients tend to be mild cases and clear up on their own. One person died in that study, which is probably about the statistical average fatality rate of the virus when including the error bars.

The second French study (you just cited) was a much smaller study of only 11 patients of severe cases and showed no clear benefits. The Chinese study which also shown no clear benefit included about 30 patients total.

It's really hard to draw a clear conclusion from a few very small case studies.

Well if anything one can conclude that any claims for HCQ are not supported. There is no reason to expect that medicine to perform any better than a placebo. What is really telling is when asked how it supposedly works no one has anywhere near a clear answer. They might as well prescribe Viagra. At least some of the people with the disease might enjoy it a bit then.

 

[Zanting]

Between the two French studies on the one Chinese study, the total cases studied is less than 130 patients. It's hard to draw any conclusions from such a small sampling.

The first (successful French) study of a little more than 80 patients seems to be questionable due to the fact that it included "mild case" patients. Statistically speaking, approximately 80 percent of all patients tend to be mild cases and clear up on their own. One person died in that study, which is probably about the statistical average fatality rate of the virus when including the error bars.

The second French study (you just cited) was a much smaller study of only 11 patients of severe cases and showed no clear benefits. The Chinese study which also shown no clear benefit included about 30 patients total.

It's really hard to draw a clear conclusion from a few very small case studies.

And yet another example of a yet to be published controlled clinical study from China involved 1000 patients...I believe that Dr Oz talked about it on his channel, but it's been brought up by other news channels from other countries as well. And again, each and every individual that is being treated independently, are case studies and patients have been able to try these medicaions for the virus for almost 3 weeks now...also providing additional positive results from many different countries.

This data is and has been accumulating daily with more studies completeing, on going, and beginning daily as well. Millions of doses are being produced in the US alone, with hot spot states requesting supplies to treat patients in their own states...making each and every patient treated adding data to the rest.

To claim there isn't enough supportive evidence is simply not accurate at all. It's because, as has been said so many times, there are two narratives...one positive when it comes to HCQ+ as an effective treatment and one that is negative and very dangerous.

Again, the longer the supportive evidence for any positive treatment is downplayed, swept under the rug as "anecdotal" as if that dosen't count as evidence or outright dismiss it, the longer it will take for those in desperate need of this life saving treatment to get it.

Forrthermore, those who are using HCQ to treat Lupus aren't getting sick, nor have those who have taken it as a preventative have not gotten sick sparking more studies about the positive benefits HCQ. Denying it's positive effects is dangerous and irresponsible.

 

[Zanting]

Try to post a proper study. I see claims I see no links. sfs is in the business. Or at least a closely related one. He would understand what a proper study is. Independently he posted the same article as I did as the only valid study so far.

The "studies" that claim it helps that I have seen are based far too heavily on healthy people that would almost certainly have survived regardless of whether they took that medicine or not. Covid-19 is not a death sentence. That people survive is not unusual. A proper test would focus more on those that are far less likely to survive. Those are the people that need help and that was what the study I linked focused on. It did not appear to help.

Posted and ignored...how about yours evidence?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Posted and ignored...how about yours evidence?

No, it wasn't. At least not be you in this thread. Perhaps in another? You posted no evidence only opinion.

And I did post a link to a proper study. It appears to be a far better study than those trying to sell what may be snake oil.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Negative HCQ studies:

The French study: No Evidence of Rapid Antiviral Clearance or Clinical Benefit with the Combination of Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin in Patients with Severe COVID-19 Infection - ScienceDirect

The Chinese study: A pilot study of hydroxychloroquine in treatment of patients with common coronavirus disease-19 (COVID-19)

Another study that showed it was ineffective against another virus: Paradoxical Effect of Chloroquine Treatment in Enhancing Chikungunya Virus Infection

That one was interesting because though promising in vitro it appeared to have negative effects when applied in vivo.

And a note on the French study that showed promise:

"Although some of their results appeared to be encouraging, it should also be noted that most of their patients only had mild symptoms. Furthermore, 85% of the patients didn't even have a fever – one of the major telltale symptoms of the virus, thus suggesting that these patients likely would have naturally cleared the virus without any intervention."

Too many healthy patients skew the results. What we need to know is how those with severe cases react to this drug and that is not promising at all.

 

[Michael]

And yet another example of a yet to be published controlled clinical study from China involved 1000 patients...I believe that Dr Oz talked about it on his channel, but it's been brought up by other news channels from other countries as well. And again, each and every individual that is being treated independently, are case studies and patients have been able to try these medicaions for the virus for almost 3 weeks now...also providing additional positive results from many different countries.

This data is and has been accumulating daily with more studies completeing, on going, and beginning daily as well. Millions of doses are being produced in the US alone, with hot spot states requesting supplies to treat patients in their own states...making each and every patient treated adding data to the rest.

To claim there isn't enough supportive evidence is simply not accurate at all. It's because, as has been said so many times, there are two narratives...one positive when it comes to HCQ+ as an effective treatment and one that is negative and very dangerous.

Again, the longer the supportive evidence for any positive treatment is downplayed, swept under the rug as "anecdotal" as if that dosen't count as evidence or outright dismiss it, the longer it will take for those in desperate need of this life saving treatment to get it.

Forrthermore, those who are using HCQ to treat Lupus aren't getting sick, nor have those who have taken it as a preventative have not gotten sick sparking more studies about the positive benefits HCQ. Denying it's positive effects is dangerous and irresponsible.

I don't get the impression that anyone is trying to "deny" any positive effects, it's more a matter of trying to figure out if HCQ actually has any positive effects. As I noted in my previous post, the first French study which reported positive effects has some statistical problems. It was based on the outcome of a full range of patients, but most COVID patients recover on their own without the help of drugs, and one of the patients in that small studied died which is probably about the statistical average without treatment at all.

The other two negative studies didn't show any clear evidence of positive effects, so as it stands, there isn't really any clear evidence that HCQ has positive effects, at least not yet.

I'm pretty sure that *if* the evidence was solid, that everyone would jump on board pretty quickly. Nobody however want's to suggest it *is* a valid treatment unless that is actually the case.

Medical "evidence" is typically pretty conservative. There has to be pretty obvious benefit, otherwise it's not considered evidence. I consider myself to be pretty "gung ho" in terms of looking for treatments, but even I have some doubt about the effectiveness of HCQ at this point in time.

I am surprised by the "smallness" of all the studies to date. Combined, the three reported tests included a total of less than 130 patients. It's hard to draw any conclusions from such a small sampling.

 

[Michael]

Well if anything one can conclude that any claims for HCQ are not supported.

As much as I'd love to see *any* treatment actually work, I'd have to agree with you that the studies to date do not seem to suggest that HCQ is an effective treatment for COVID-19.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As much as I'd love to see *any* treatment actually work, I'd have to agree with you that the studies to date do not seem to suggest that HCQ is an effective treatment for COVID-19.

I would love to see some positive results too, but I have also found that false hopes are often more damaging than no hopes. If anything the answer is most likely to be some sort of vaccine. And I will be first in line if such a vaccine is developed.

 

[Zanting]

As stated...it is irresponsible and dangerous to deny the facts that are very much out there...although and also stated...some people will never be satisfied no matter how much evidence has accumulated .

It is the negative narrative and one that ignores that it as an "unofficial cure" with millions of doses being produced and distributed just for US citizens,not to mention all the other countries that are administering HCQ+ as an effective treatment and which has also been approved by the FDA. And again 1000's of doctors surveyed from many different countries that have all stated HCQ+ SHOULD be used as a treatment for covid-19.

But then there are the naysayers pushinng, the no no no it's not effective narrative, with no substantial evidence to support such negative claims whatsoever...spreading fear, anxiety and distress. Not my narrative at all, nor would I ever dash peoples hopes with this false negative narrative about the effectiveness of these meds.

 

[lordjeff]

I've seen some reports that they are seeing reduction of symptoms. Whatever works. I'd say these people have nothing to lose at this point. It's not sposed to be used in chronic conditions that would require weeks upon weeks of it, but seems to have had some success. I also saw a clip on an immunologist who has dissected the SARS antigen which would be step 1 toward a vaccine. But I'm also waiting to see if the mainstream news reports this.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As stated...it is irresponsible and dangerous to deny the facts that are very much out there...although and also stated...some people will never be satisfied no matter how much evidence has accumulated .

It is the negative narrative and one that ignores that it as an "unofficial cure" with millions of doses being produced and distributed just for US citizens,not to mention all the other countries that are administering HCQ+ as an effective treatment and which has also been approved by the FDA. And again 1000's of doctors surveyed from many different countries that have all stated HCQ+ SHOULD be used as a treatment for covid-19.

But then there are the naysayers pushinng, the no no no it's not effective narrative, with no substantial evidence to support such negative claims whatsoever...spreading fear, anxiety and distress. Not my narrative at all, nor would I ever dash peoples hopes with this false negative narrative about the effectiveness of these meds.

If the facts are "out there" why didn't you support your claims? Simply claiming something is not good enough. The French study that got so many people all worked up was flawed as explained already. Better studies do not indicate any advantage to using HCQ.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I've seen some reports that they are seeing reduction of symptoms. Whatever works. I'd say these people have nothing to lose at this point. It's not sposed to be used in chronic conditions that would require weeks upon weeks of it, but seems to have had some success. I also saw a clip on an immunologist who has dissected the SARS antigen which would be step 1 toward a vaccine. But I'm also waiting to see if the mainstream news reports this.

One needs more than anecdotes. People often fools themselves in cases like this. Data is needed. The data does not seem to agree.

 

[JohnAshton]

And again...where is your evidence of such an outlandish claim??? The treatment nor covid-19 care about politics...only people who interject politics.

Doctors and scientists look for treatments and cures and have been doing an outstanding job. Their day and night effort to succeed in bringing the world an effective treatment should be exalted for bringing real hope, not dismissed as ineffective and anecdotal at best. There comes a time when enough evidence gets presented to be claimed as proof...that time has come, apparently much to the dismay of some.

You have to offer substantiated, objective proof, which you have failed to do.

All I have to do is point out your failure.

 

[Bobber]

A Democratic state representative believes that her life was saved by using hydroxychoroqine her doctor prescribed for her. And now she thanks Trump for promoting it!

Detroit Dem says Trump's touting of hydroxychloroquine helped save her life