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Husband of one wife

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Blackhawk, Apr 14, 2002.

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  1. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Okay below is some scriptures about pastors and deacons. You might have other terms for these positions (priest, elder, etc.) but I will use these. V 2 and v 12 say that a deacon or a pastor has to be a "husband of one wife." First what does this mean? The most common interpretation is that it means that a pastor/ deacon can't be a polygamyst or have been divorced. But here is my second question. Do you think that if a man who has been divorced and has remmarried and let's say has been married to this woman for 25 years or so, could this man be allowed to be a pastor or a deacon? I know it would be really bad if it had just occurred but we are speaking of 25 years ago. What do y'all think?

    BH6


    1 Tim 3:1-13
    1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires {to do.}
    2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
    3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
    4 {He must be} one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
    5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
    6 {and} not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
    7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside {the church} so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
    8 Deacons likewise {must be} men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
    9 {but} holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
    10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
    11 Women {must} likewise {be} dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
    12 Deacons must be husbands of {only} one wife, {and} good managers of {their} children and their own households.
    13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
    (NAU)
     
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  2. Kiwi

    Kiwi Active Member

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    I don't think God would mind.
     
  3. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    BH6

    The purpose for having only one wife, is to set an example unto the rest of the Church. The Mystery revealed, is the spiritual example, and the Pastor (minster) etc is the literal example of a man being the husband of "one" wife. Prior to this, using King David and his son King Solomon as examples. They had many wives, and God did not mind that they had many wives. But the Mystery revealed shows us in a spiritual image, the one true God. The purpose is to keep the image of the "one" true God in the minds of the believers.

    To answer your second question, I would say no, for the similar reason above. The Word says that we are married unto Christ and as his wife , we are his body, and we are told to not be married unto another.

    If you were to expose the divorce about this man being married at one other time. The example would be set for other to follow, if you allow him to be a minister who would be the husband of his second wife, even though he would only be married unto one woman.

    Every man falls short of the glory of God, including King David who was already KIng when we read about his falling into sin of adultery. But divorce , even though not a sin in itself, but an example of the heart, would be a very poor choice to allow this person as a minister unto God's people.

    This was a tough question to answer, from the point of view that in your example, he was now married for 25 years. But I believe that what I have explained is valid enough to support such a cliam.

    Good question bh6

    L I C - Hervey
     
  4. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Hervey,

    Thanks for your well thought out response. I do have a quetion though. We know that it was Paul who wrote this right? But not many years before would you call Paul (at that time was named Saul) Peaceable?, Gentle?, having a good reputation with those inside the church?, or even above reproach? I looked at alot of commentaries and it said that above reproach meant that there could be no scandals brought up because of him. Paul definitely did not fit that category.

    Now I know god chose him personally but still if we looked at Paul's past at that moment then by those standards I do not see how he could be a pastor or a deacon. But He was even greater than that. He was an Apostle.

    Also i believe that if we look back far enough that we will find in anyones life that they failed the test also. maybe they were not gentle at one time or his kids at one time were not managed well. So I think that there is a time that we should give that person grace. What do you think?

    Bh6
     
  5. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    BH6:

    To point out the way in which you addressed your first post, it would seem to me anyway, that you are steering away from your original toughts.

    The reason I say this, is because you were using a standard by which one could only have one wife in order to be a minister. Your standard has changed , because your thoughts have changed.

    I agree , that many who were called by God to perform many tasks throughout the Word, were a far cry from being pure and clean in their way of life. But the standard was set by God , and God never wavers from His standards.

    Try and follow what I am saying here. Paul who was previously called Saul, was according to his position in life, doing what was expected of him according to his position in life. He persecuted the saints, as we can read. But Paul did not have many wives, did he ? In fact, after his conversion, he had no wife. Some say he was married at one time, but Paul said the it would be good (better) if some of you would remain as I = unmarried.

    The point to all of this, is not about "how" one lead their lives previously, but how they are living their lives (life) now.

    One who is married after a divorce is living their lives the best that they can. That is not the problem. The example is the problem.

    Let me give you another example to see if this will help in any way. Say someone was a thief in their previous life style. Maybe even went to jail for the crime of stealing. After serving their time in jail they come to the point in their life where God means a great deal to them. They want to live their lives for God , and even serve him as a Pastor (minister). In this case there would be nothing wrong with this man becoming a minister.

    To reiterate, getting a divorce is not a sin . Thus, the person in question here did not sin. So no forgiveness is required to challenge his desire to become a minister.

    But the divorce and remarrying sets a living example unto others. It is like saying -- "If he can do it, so can I. So my marriage is not going well, and I want to become a minster for God, but my wife and I are going to get a divorce first, then I plan on going aheadn and plan my life around being a minister for God, and if a nice woman comes along, I just will marry her when the time is right"

    Your argument could be, that this man in your first example was already married for another 25 years. That is what made giving my answer a little hard. But the standard is clear in I Timothy.

    Even the thief can accomidate the standards set in I Timothy chapter 3, because he is no longer a thief, but man who has changed.

    Lets look at these standards >

    #1 - Husband of one wife

    #2- # 6 - vigilant,sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach

    #7 - # 13 - Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler , not covetous

    #14 - One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity

    #15 - Not a novice , lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil

    #16 - Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without : lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil ( which means -- one who takes care of them which have not -- willing to take care of the needs in the church )

    # 17 - not doubletongued , not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre

    #18 - Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience

    #19 - blameless

    #20 - wives not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things

    #21 - (said again) - Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well

    #22 - well purchased (examples to others) to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    Where would a divorced and remarried man break certain standards as set forth here ?

    My answer are these -- (backwards) - #22 - # 21 - #20 - #18 - #14 - #1

    L I C - Hervey
     
  6. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Hervey,

    Thanks again for another well reasoned post but I have a question again. Why is it okay to say that with certain qualifications that the man's past is his past but others it is not? That is why I brought up the example of Paul. He does not show a good example if we were to look at his past and see what he did. n one should be like him when he was Saul. But why is that in his past but divorce can never be? It seems to me that it is selective enforcing. I say that if something is far back in the man's past then maybe it is best to forget it. i think it is shown that a lot was forgot when Peter and Paul were leaders in the church. Both were not above reproach throughout their lives. o why is divorce different than persecution of the church?

    BH6
     
  7. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    Against: It says one wife, it means one wife.

    For: If he's obviously gotten it right this time, while he may be a bad example in some ways, he can also remind us that God is forgiving, and you are allowed to try again; that, having sinned, you are not damned forever.

    If my pastor were a divorcee, I don't think I'd mind.
    Some people would... But there are people who mind almost everything. ;)
     
  8. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    BH6

    It is like I said --- The thief can change, but being remarried , this person can not change the fact.

    And like I also said -- This person did not sin, so forgetting his past is not the issue. The issue, is the example unto the Church of the fact that this person remarried, and is living in another marriage. He now is the husband of more than one wife, even though he divorced his first wife.

    Here is another example for you to consider >

    In the time before the revealing of the Mystery unto the church , it was not wrong to have more than one wife. Thus if someone wanted to become a minister , but had more than one wife, then this man could not become a minister because of the fact that he has more than one wife. The "example " does not fit the standard. Understand ?

    The same would be true for this divorced man who remarried. Some will say that he is only married unto one wife, but that is not totally true.

    Read Matthew 5:31

    No problem right ?

    Now read Matthew 5:32

    If you have a problem with this verse we can discuss it, but first please read the next two verses - Matthew 5:33 & 34 ----- Now go back to the list I made and also look at my picks.

    By whose standards are we looking at divorce -- The Words, or the worlds ? And what (how) good is a man oath ?

    L I C - Hervey
     
  9. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    This is true. Still, I think grace comes into this; people who have sinned can enter Heaven, so I'm inclined to think that a lot of the barriers are subject to grace.

    The thief may no longer steel, but he will *always* be a person who stole.
     
  10. Martin

    Martin Senior Veteran

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    If you accept the principle of divorce then you must accept that when a husband divorces his wife, then he is no longer her husband and he no longer has a wife. I don't think you can have it both ways. This would mean that if he remarries then he only has one wife.

    I don't believe that God ever wanted or intended that a married couple would ever be divorced, but has allowed it because of the hardness of our hearts. From this point of view, I don't think it is wise for a divorced man to be an elder (etc.,) - but I don't see that scripture prevents it.
     
  11. BigEd

    BigEd an adopted child of God

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    was the pastor divorced Before he came to know the Lord or after?

    I think that would also be a factor.
     
  12. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Well i was thinking that He was not but answer it both ways. it definitely makes it harder if he was a chrisitan during the divorce but does it make it impossible for him to be a pastor or deacon 25 years after the fact? So answer it both ways.

    BH6
     
  13. chagal was here

    chagal was here jack's raging bile

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    not that i'm advocating polygamy - but this is the only prohibition agaist the practice in the bible, and it's not directed to all men, just those wanting to be leaders in the church...

    hmmm...
     
  14. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    I don't know that polygamy (or polyandry) are inherently immoral. I do think that they're impractical for most people; most people have an instinct for jealousy which just won't adapt well.
     
  15. chagal was here

    chagal was here jack's raging bile

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    reading the stories of the jewish patriarchs (abraham, isaac, and jacob) and thier struggles with their wives and their wives' maidservants, and their offspring - was enough to discourage me from wanting a 2nd or 3rd wife...

    i read some rabbinical writings from around the time of Christ which said that a man should only have as many wives as he could keep satisfied. :)
     
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