Humans DNA is 99% similar to that of chimps?

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LoG

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rmwilliamsll

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Lion of God said:


strange bedfellows indeed.
the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
you are quoting a very strong and vocal Moslem, his religion has been and probably is today, the greatest competitor to Christianity.

think, Augustine was north african.
Islam conquered more than 2/3 of the total area of Christianity in less than 100 years.

strange bedfellows indeed.
 
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shernren

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Citations, citations, citations. Thank God the Harun Yahya article has them. Alpine, where did you get that 99% figure from? The status quo was 98.5%. And now:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2833

But note what the Harun Yahya article doesn't quote:

The result is only based on about one million DNA bases out of the three billion which make up the human and chimp genomes, says Britten. "It's just a glance," he says.
But the differences were equally split between "junk" regions that do not have any genes, and gene-rich parts of the genome, suggesting they may be evenly distributed.
Britten thinks it will be some time before we know what it is about our genes that makes us so different from chimps. He thinks the real secrets could lie in "regulatory" regions of DNA that control whole networks of genes. "It'll be a while before we understand them," he says.
The Harun Yahya article also has a classic misquote about chicken proteins. Although the article isn't specific, it's likely that the (falsified) claim it's citing is the claim that chicken lysozymes are closer to man's lysozymes than any other species'. That's flat out wrong; chimpanzee lysozymes are completely identical to human lysozymes, while chicken lysozymes have 51 different amino acids out of 130. You tell me which is more similar. I have no idea where the crocodile quote comes from. I don't have access to the NS archives beyond 1989, so I can't tell directly what article he's citing. Any help?

For an interesting history of the whole chicken protein debacle, try this: http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/bullfrog.html ... eye-opening.

Again, I can't access the 1999 New Scientist article quoted, but note a similar claim here: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/worm.html

Note that while (if this is the article cited) the 75% figure from Harun Yahya's site is copied verbatim from the text, the significance of 75% in the text is very different:

Waterston's team and a group at the Sanger Centre in Cambridge, England, worked together for eight years to identify the worm's nearly 20,000 genes. To do this, they had to find and sequence about 97 million DNA base pairs, a task that required labs to work around the clock.
Collins said that by understanding what happens in the worm cells, researchers also learn what happens in human cells. Of the 5,000 best-known human genes, 75 percent have matches in the worm, Collins said.
The human genetic pattern, or genome, has 80,000 genes arranged in 3 billion DNA molecule pairs. About 7 percent of the human genome has been mapped, Collins said.
75% of 5000 = 3750 genes. So, at the time of the study, nematodes shared 3750 genes out of 20,000 with humans, and humans shared 3750 genes out of 80,000 with nematodes. That isn't a "surprising 75 % similarity between the DNAs of nematode worms and man".
 
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DailyBlessings

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Alpine said:
I'm stuggling with this right now. I've read that human dna is 99% similar to the dna of chimps. How do we as creationists reconcile that to our belief that we are not related to apes?
Well, I suppose if everything was just created all at once, it doesn't have to follow any specific logic or self-ordering. Perhaps God just liked the design?
 
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Alpine

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shernren said:
Citations, citations, citations. Thank God the Harun Yahya article has them. Alpine, where did you get that 99% figure from? The status quo was 98.5%. And now:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2833

But note what the Harun Yahya article doesn't quote:

The result is only based on about one million DNA bases out of the three billion which make up the human and chimp genomes, says Britten. "It's just a glance," he says.
But the differences were equally split between "junk" regions that do not have any genes, and gene-rich parts of the genome, suggesting they may be evenly distributed.
Britten thinks it will be some time before we know what it is about our genes that makes us so different from chimps. He thinks the real secrets could lie in "regulatory" regions of DNA that control whole networks of genes. "It'll be a while before we understand them," he says.
The Harun Yahya article also has a classic misquote about chicken proteins. Although the article isn't specific, it's likely that the (falsified) claim it's citing is the claim that chicken lysozymes are closer to man's lysozymes than any other species'. That's flat out wrong; chimpanzee lysozymes are completely identical to human lysozymes, while chicken lysozymes have 51 different amino acids out of 130. You tell me which is more similar. I have no idea where the crocodile quote comes from. I don't have access to the NS archives beyond 1989, so I can't tell directly what article he's citing. Any help?

For an interesting history of the whole chicken protein debacle, try this: http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/bullfrog.html ... eye-opening.

Again, I can't access the 1999 New Scientist article quoted, but note a similar claim here: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/worm.html

Note that while (if this is the article cited) the 75% figure from Harun Yahya's site is copied verbatim from the text, the significance of 75% in the text is very different:

Waterston's team and a group at the Sanger Centre in Cambridge, England, worked together for eight years to identify the worm's nearly 20,000 genes. To do this, they had to find and sequence about 97 million DNA base pairs, a task that required labs to work around the clock.
Collins said that by understanding what happens in the worm cells, researchers also learn what happens in human cells. Of the 5,000 best-known human genes, 75 percent have matches in the worm, Collins said.
The human genetic pattern, or genome, has 80,000 genes arranged in 3 billion DNA molecule pairs. About 7 percent of the human genome has been mapped, Collins said.
75% of 5000 = 3750 genes. So, at the time of the study, nematodes shared 3750 genes out of 20,000 with humans, and humans shared 3750 genes out of 80,000 with nematodes. That isn't a "surprising 75 % similarity between the DNAs of nematode worms and man".
TV program last night said it was 99%. :)
 
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random_guy

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Alpine said:
I'm stuggling with this right now. I've read that human dna is 99% similar to the dna of chimps. How do we as creationists reconcile that to our belief that we are not related to apes?

I think the xx% actually depends on what you're sequencing and how the comparison is being done. That's why you get lots of different %'s depending on what study is being done.

That said, I believe most Creationists use this as evidence of common design. The only problem is if this is an example of common design, how do Creationists explain differences between homologous structures and pseudogenes. I believe they explain it as creative design. From this, it's easy to see that Creationism gives no worthwhile answers since it can give an answer for everything but can't explain anything.
 
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LoG

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rmwilliamsll said:
strange bedfellows indeed.
the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Almost reminds one of the relationship between TE's and secular evolutionists doesn't it? Identical twins for all intents and purposes.


Alpine said:
I'm stuggling with this right now. I've read that human dna is 99% similar to the dna of chimps. How do we as creationists reconcile that to our belief that we are not related to apes?

No reason to struggle with it Alpine. The Origins issue is like a good mystery novel where we are the detectives searching out the clues for who is the most likely suspect in the creation of life.
Each detective thinks he/she has the best evdence for how it came about but in the final analysis the best any can know is what may have happened, not what necessarily did, since all the evidence is circumstantial.
 
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DailyBlessings

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Lion of God said:
Almost reminds one of the relationship between TE's and secular evolutionists doesn't it? Identical twins for all intents and purposes.
How so? Theistic evolutionists believe that God is the creator of the universe. Secular evolutionists do not.
 
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jabechler

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I love the study of science and origens, but I dont use it in place of my faith and my belief in the the perfect Word of God. Without Gods presence in iour lives we cannot understand his truths. I place God first and use my study of science to better appreciate the awesome power, intelligence and love He has for me. God has revealed himself in nature, through its beauty and design, and God has given me abilities the monkeys will never have including salvation and the promise of eternal life. Put your full faith and surrendered life in the hands of God, the only creator and life giver and all truth will be revealed.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Put your full faith and surrendered life in the hands of God, the only creator and life giver and all truth will be revealed.


everyone posting on this board is a Christian.
the denominationalism of the church indicates that "all truth will be revealed" is not a fully functional epistemology unless of course the only true Christians are those identical to your beliefs. in which case the instruction "put your full faith" is a veiled instruction to believe as do you.

This "request" to pray and consult the Holy Spirit for truth is a constant theme on this board, interestingly coming only(in my experience) from the YECist community.
 
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JohnR7

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Alpine said:
I'm stuggling with this right now. I've read that human dna is 99% similar to the dna of chimps. How do we as creationists reconcile that to our belief that we are not related to apes?
They are not that close. If they were that close then you would be able to mate them together.

Hinny - Mule
Hybrid Dogs
Wolphin
Leopon - Jaglion - Pumapard
Hybrid Elephant
Tiger Cross - Ocelot/Puma
Kangaroo
Bears
Liger - Tigon
Beefalo - Cattalo
Chimera - Geep
Polecat/Ferret
Chausie - Tabby/African Wild Cat
Yak Crosses
Sheep
Zorse - Zonkey - Zony
Bengal - Savannah Cats
Bobcat/Lynx - Caracal - Servical
Cama - Llamel
Pig/Wild Pig
Grevy Zebra/Somalia Ass
Fowl
 
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DailyBlessings

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JohnR7 said:
They are not that close. If they were that close then you would be able to mate them together.
Not true- even a small change in the reproductive process can doom mating between two species.
 
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LoG

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DailyBlessings said:
How so? Theistic evolutionists believe that God is the creator of the universe. Secular evolutionists do not.

As far as the as it concerns ToE, there is not much difference as it regards our Origins from what I have seen in my debates with both TE's and athiests.
Other than God being the First cause of the Big Bang, if you feel there are other areas where the TE's are different than the secular evo camp as it relates to how life came about on this planet, feel free to point it out. I would be happy to be proven wrong.
 
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Assyrian

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Evolution being God's idea
Mankind being God's plan from the beginning
Man being made in God's image
Man being created to have fellowship with God

But the really odd bedfellows are the militant atheists and YECs who agree on the interpretation of Genesis as well as agreeing that Genesis contradicts each other and that only one can be right.

It is one thing for intelligent human beings to agree over the clear meaning of evidence of our physical world. You do not need any special spiritual insight to understand science.

However I would have thought some spiritual insight was needed to understand the word of God. Yet this is where YECs and atheist agree. TEs and atheists just agree on the science.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Lion of God said:
As far as the as it concerns ToE, there is not much difference as it regards our Origins from what I have seen in my debates with both TE's and athiests.
Other than God being the First cause of the Big Bang, if you feel there are other areas where the TE's are different than the secular evo camp as it relates to how life came about on this planet, feel free to point it out. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Why should Christian's science and an atheist's science differ? If a Christian and an atheist both witness, say a traffic accident, why should their accounts of what happened differ? It's God world, both live in it, what you see with your physical eyes doesn't really differ much from person to person. It is the interpretation of the meaning, the significance, the purpose that differs. Why bad things happen to good people, as in a traffic accident, is a metaphysical proposition, not a scientific one.

It is on this metaphysical plane that atheists and Christians disagree about, why things happen, towards what goals and purposes things might move, explanatory functions. On this level TE proclaims loudly that God is in charge, that evolution is not random in a metaphysical sense any more than the rain is, for God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Just as we need find meaning in what appears to many observers as a meaningless and random traffic accident, we attribute that meaning to God, just as we attribute the evolution of creatures to God. Not on the plane of science, of observations, of instrumentality, but on the higher plane of metaphysics.
YECists miss all this nuance because they completely conflate science with the metaphysics of science, just as do many atheist who contend that the methodological naturalism of science means that philosophic naturalism is correct. They mean when they say that "man is an animal", that "man is nothing but an animal". Without separating these levels YECism like atheism can't separate observation from the human significance and meaning of those observations, it just forms one continuous thought.

Yet i can observe the rain, do meterology, listen to the evening news weather report and attribute it all to the graciousness of a good God and not tell the scientists doing it that they can not understand the weather unless they truely believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that the first few books of the Bible are scientific history. Lost in this morass of conflating and confusing observation and meaningfulness, both YECists and atheists operate as poles of the same idea. If the Scriptures are true then they must be an accurate scientific and history description of how God created as well as why. The only difference between the YECist and the atheist on the issue is that the YECist thinks you can only read the book of Words and the atheist that you can only read the book of Works. It is TE that believes that both books come from the hand of God and must be read properly together, each correctly the other from it's own distinctive vantage point.
 
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shernren

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As far as the as it concerns ToE, there is not much difference as it regards our Origins from what I have seen in my debates with both TE's and athiests.
Other than God being the First cause of the Big Bang, if you feel there are other areas where the TE's are different than the secular evo camp as it relates to how life came about on this planet, feel free to point it out. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Have you ever seen any atheists argue that the Bible is true, but in a non-scientific way? Isn't that something only TEs argue? That is where the main difference is.

As rmswilliams and Assyrian have excellently exposited, it really isn't surprising that TEs and atheists agree in terms of science. What is surprising, then, is that YECs and atheists agree in terms of the Bible. Why do I say that? Because atheists and YECs agree that "if creationism is false, the Bible is false".

TV program last night said it was 99%. :)

What program? It has been pointed out that the percentage depends on how the difference is measured. For example, I may have gotten only 70% on a test, but if almost nobody else got above 70%, then I would end up in the 99% percentile, so you could either say that my results are "70%" or "99%", depending on which score you take.

The Origins issue is like a good mystery novel where we are the detectives searching out the clues for who is the most likely suspect in the creation of life.
Each detective thinks he/she has the best evdence for how it came about but in the final analysis the best any can know is what may have happened, not what necessarily did, since all the evidence is circumstantial.

And the YEC position is like a detective who, before seeing the body, decides that Merlin the magician killed the victim.

If I show him a garroted body, a garrot with Suspect A's fingerprints, and Suspect A with no alibi, the detective says "Merlin zapped him, made the garrot marks, put Suspect A's fingerprints on the garrot, and gave Suspect A amnesia so that he couldn't remember where he was during the crime."
If I show him a body with waterlogged lungs, clippings from under the victim's fingernails which match Suspect B's DNA, and Suspect B who was seen within 50m of the swimming pool during the time of murder, the detective says "Merlin zapped him, filled his lungs with water, put Suspect B's tissue under the victim's fingernails, and hypnotized the passerbys to imagine that they saw Suspect B at the pool."

Is there actually any evidence that Merlin killed the man? No, because there is no way to convince the detective that it wasn't Merlin who killed the man.

YECism is ultimately unfalsifiable and therefore isn't science.
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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Alpine said:
I'm stuggling with this right now. I've read that human dna is 99% similar to the dna of chimps. How do we as creationists reconcile that to our belief that we are not related to apes?
  1. The 99% number depends on what you are looking at, as best I can tell:
    • Originally that statement, (whether it was 99 or 95 or 98.265%) was made mostly based on looking at Chromasomes (sp), the large scale structure of our DNA.
    • Currently if you just look at the amino acid sequences that actually do something, you get a very high degree of similarity, I don't recall if it was 98%, but it was over 90%.
    • if you look at a much broader view it drops to around 76% (actually I believe this was for one fairly long section of DNA, long in that it included tens of thousands of "letters" but still only a small fraction of the total).
  2. The problem is not the similarities of working DNA so much as the differences and patterns of differences.
    • similar DNA can be written off as design similarities.
    • broken DNA such as involved in nonworkingvitamin C production which is shared by primates is far more difficult to explain away.
    • patterns of differences, e.g. concerning cytachrome c (sp?), that match morphology but don't have any purpose also cause problems
gotta go
 
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