Human nature and Jesus

[Tellyontellyon]

Hi..
Before Jesus' crucifixion he was able to say things about the Father knowing, but not the Son. E.g....
“But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

As I understand it, that was Jesus' human nature speaking.

Did Jesus lose that human nature when he was crucified? Could you comment on this?

 

[timothyu]

Jesus did only the will of the Father and not His own. That will not change in the kingdom to come as He specifically says Our Father.. Thy Kingdom (governance, rulership) come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven. The Father's will remains at the top of the ladder.

 

[com7fy8]

Hi..
Before Jesus' crucifixion he was able to say things about the Father knowing, but not the Son. E.g....
“But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

As I understand it, that was Jesus' human nature speaking.

Well, yes ones say God is omniscient . . . all-knowing . . . so if Jesus did not know when He would return, ones can have a time with this.

My opinion is . . . believing Jesus is God as His Son . . . like how a human father's son is human . . . God is all-knowing . . . also all-controlling and all-loving. But does He do all His loving everywhere at once? Is His controlling the same here as it is there? So, likewise, at any given point in space, God might not be knowing every thing that there is to know, consciously, at every point where He is.

I consider it is like the Internet. The Internet has all its info, but no one spot on the Net has every item of info that is in the Net. But what matters is if info is where it is needed

So, this is my explanation, and hello to anyone who supposes Jesus can be God only if He knows every detail of all which can be known, at any moment . . . including how many electrons are in the sun, for example. Have fun with that.

I think His knowledge is specialized for the loving He is doing.

And humans can make such an idol, even, about knowledge. So, this can effect how they might see God and be impressed about God. But most of all "God is love" > in 1 John 4:8&16 > He knows love and is love with all the character of love. And we know you can be very loving without knowing everything.

I think we can see how Jesus was all love, even while in His physical body. And part of His being love is how Jesus left Heaven itself to come here in a human body on earth, in order to love us and help us and save us to become His own family. He loved us by living in a human body, so He could personally share with us.

But ones can be so busy with how much God knows, not knowing how personally He shares with His children because of how He is love.

 

[com7fy8]

Did Jesus lose that human nature when he was crucified? Could you comment on this?

When Christ was crucified, He still was in His human body. So, I would say that however He was being human on earth was still continuing on the cross.

And, like maybe you and I have already discussed > while on the cross Jesus was going through things of this life so now He can feel for us and what we are going through, and minister to us how His grace made Him able to do so well while suffering.

Jesus knows how love can succeed and bless during any good time or hard time. This, I would say, is one of the most important parts of being "all" knowing. Jesus on the cross knew how to sweetly please our Father, even during that horrible circumstance > also very good to know

There is knowing, then, so much more crucial than knowing information. But it seems there can be people who limit God to being only knowing of all information; they might not talk about how Jesus knows how to love and how to please our Father, plus how this is our example so we may share with Him in how He loves >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2).

 

[timothyu]

The whole concept behind any father training a son is that the father knows what the son does not, yet. The son must trust in the father. But again, Jesus' whole Gospel of the Kingdom was the return of the Father, not just the Son.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi..
Before Jesus' crucifixion he was able to say things about the Father knowing, but not the Son. E.g....
“But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

As I understand it, that was Jesus' human nature speaking.

Did Jesus lose that human nature when he was crucified? Could you comment on this?

No, the Incarnation is forever, He is the God-Man for all eternity.

The Incarnation is, fundamentally, a Mystery--and thus much of it lay outside of reason. How can God, who knows all things, not know something? We don't have an answer to that, and by trying to divide Jesus' divinity and humanity from one another we are ripping Jesus apart--this was the ancient heresy of the Nestorians which was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD.

The Incarnation is inherently paradoxical: Because we are declaring that God, who can neither suffer nor die, did in fact suffer and die. Eternal and Immortal God hung on the cross, and died a very actual, real death: a mortal human death. We do not say "the humanity died", we say Christ died. Natures don't die, persons do. Jesus Christ, the Person, who is both fully God and fully human died.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GreekOrthodox]

To add to ViaCrucis, one of the hymns sung on Great and Holy Thursday in the Orthodox church, which is a list of paradoxes. There are a few other hymns that do the same but this is probably the best know.

Today is suspended on a tree He who suspended the earth upon the waters.
The King of the angels is decked with a crown of thorns.
He who wraps the heavens in clouds is wrapped in the purple of mockery.
He who freed Adam in the Jordan is slapped on the face.
The Bridegroom of the Church is affixed to the Cross with nails.
The Son of the Virgin is pierced by a spear.
We worship Thy passion, O Christ.
We worship Thy passion, O Christ.
We worship Thy passion, O Christ.
Show us also Thy glorious resurrection.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The point of this is the word "Emptied" as in He emptied Himself and became man. The word means "retained nothing". All the miraculous things Jesus did, He did through the Holy Spirit. He retained nothing of His original Godly attributes i.e. retained nothing and became 100% normal man ... but without inherited sin from the line of Adam.

 

[Sketcher]

Hi..
Before Jesus' crucifixion he was able to say things about the Father knowing, but not the Son. E.g....
“But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

As I understand it, that was Jesus' human nature speaking.

Did Jesus lose that human nature when he was crucified? Could you comment on this?

It would not have been lost at the crucifixion. We believe in Christ's bodily resurrection from the dead.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The point of this is the word "Emptied" as in He emptied Himself and became man. The word means "retained nothing". All the miraculous things Jesus did, He did through the Holy Spirit. He retained nothing of His original Godly attributes i.e. retained nothing and became 100% normal man ... but without inherited sin from the line of Adam.

While I know this isn't a board for debate, I feel like it would be wrong if I didn't address this to point out that this idea, sometimes called Kenoticism or the "Kenotic heresy", is generally condemned in Christianity; as it is a misunderstanding of what St. Paul is saying in Philippians ch. 2. The term "kenoticism" and "kenotic" are from the Greek verb meaning "to empty" as found in this passage from Philippians 2. What makes Kenoticism heretical is the misunderstanding of what it means for Christ to have emptied (ἐκένωσεν ekenosen) Himself. This emptying, or pouring out of Christ, is an emptying into humility--the humility of the servant who gives up His life willingly, in love. This corresponds to where we read that Jesus did not exploit His Deity.

Jesus, though God, did not exploit His Divine Status for personal gain; on the contrary He fully partakes in the lowliness of our humanity. Not by losing any of His Divinity, or Divine attributes, etc; He remains fully and perfectly God with all which that entails. But He shows us that, being God, He came to serve rather than be served.

The emptying here is not a removal of His Divine stature; but rather the humility of God in becoming a servant.

In the Incarnation we do not see a man so great as to be called God. Instead we see God so humble that He should be called human, and suffer for the sake of sinners, even those who would nail Him to the cross and mock Him.

In Jesus God does not wear a mask.
In Jesus God's mask is removed, and we see His face.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EmethAlethia]

Jesus, as God was all knowing: But He was no longer all knowing once He became man:

Luk_4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Jesus as God needs no outside leadership, but yet He was led by the Spirit:

Mat_4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Mar_1:12 Immediately the Spirit *impelled Him to go out into the wilderness.

Luk_4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness

Jesus preached and did miracles through the power of the Spirit, not His own:

Mat_12:18 "BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.

Luk_4:14 And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district.

Luk_4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Jesus didn't even raise Himself from the dead:

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act_2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act_3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Act_3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

Act_4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

Act_5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

2Co_4:14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.

...

Jesus did not cast out demons through His own power, but through the Holy Spirit: Mat_12:28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus emptied Himself and became man. Yes, He was still God. No, He didn't keep His attributes that were strictly divine. He was literally, as far as power and knowledge goes, and lack of sin nature, the second Adam. Everything miraculous done was done through the power of the Holy Spirit, just like all the signs and wonders in the New Testament were done. Not through His own power.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus, as God was all knowing: But He was no longer all knowing once He became man:

Luk_4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Jesus as God needs no outside leadership, but yet He was led by the Spirit:

Mat_4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Mar_1:12 Immediately the Spirit *impelled Him to go out into the wilderness.

Luk_4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness

Jesus preached and did miracles through the power of the Spirit, not His own:

Mat_12:18 "BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.

Luk_4:14 And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district.

Luk_4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Jesus didn't even raise Himself from the dead:

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act_2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act_3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Act_3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

Act_4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

Act_5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

2Co_4:14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.

...

Jesus did not cast out demons through His own power, but through the Holy Spirit: Mat_12:28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus emptied Himself and became man. Yes, He was still God. No, He didn't keep His attributes that were strictly divine. He was literally, as far as power and knowledge goes, and lack of sin nature, the second Adam. Everything miraculous done was done through the power of the Holy Spirit, just like all the signs and wonders in the New Testament were done. Not through His own power.

And there are just as many passages talking about how Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21, John 10:17-18). We have plenty of passages where we read of the things Jesus Himself did, by His own authority, such as when He caused the waters to settle and the winds to calm (Mark 4:37-41).

Since the Son is God, the Son does nothing apart from the Father or the Holy Spirit, not because He became less than God but because the Son is one with the Father. In the same way, the Father does nothing apart from His Son and Holy Spirit, and the Spirit does nothing apart from the Father or the Son.

For this reason we read that the Son is He through whom and for whom all things were made (John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17).

The Son did not know something, even though He is Almighty and Omnipotent God.

The solution to this paradox is not by introducing new doctrines, but by confessing that it is, indeed, a profound mystery and paradox.

God, who knows everything, didn't know something.
God, who cannot suffer, suffered under Pontius Pilate.
God, who cannot die, died on a cross.

That's the Incarnation. It is God--fully, truly, in His entirety, God--who suffered on the cross.

Don't lessen the foolishness of the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18-31) by trying to explain this away, instead, embrace this mystery of our faith: God became man (1 Timothy 3:16), in all the wonderful ways that will never make sense to us this side of the Eschaton.

Kenoticism is something which Christianity has never taught, it is a thoroughly modern doctrinal innovation.

The kenosis of the Logos is His humility and suffering, it happens to His Person; it is not an ontological change to the nature of God, which is immutable (Malachi 3:6).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EmethAlethia]

Just to clarify, I am stating that Jesus emptied Himself of all of the things that normal men do not have. He was still fully God. Those things were "set aside" during His earthly ministry. It may be that we fully agree.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just to clarify, I am stating that Jesus emptied Himself of all of the things that normal men do not have. He was still fully God. Those things were "set aside" during His earthly ministry. It may be that we fully agree.

If by "set aside" we mean that Jesus wasn't Almighty during His earthly ministry; then this would be a significant Christological error.

If all is meant by "set aside" is what the Apostle means when he says that the Lord did not exploit His Deity--He did not take advantage of His Divinity for exploitative, selfish gain--then yes, agreed.

But this is why the language of Christ humbling Himself, emptying Himself in humility as a servant, is important; and why talking about setting aside any aspect of His Divinity is bound to lead to confusion.

The Incarnation is God revealing Himself as the One who comes not to be served, but to serve.

An intrinsic and essential aspect of the Gospel is that our life with God isn't established by our rendering service to God, but in the fact that God renders service to us sinners. Our service rendered is in imitation of God, in laying down our lives in sacrifice for others.

God's way of things isn't that He places Himself at the top, but that He gives Himself away to be at the bottom.

When we see the Lord crucified on Mt. Calvary we do not see a man suffering a martyrdom; we see God expressing the very fullness of Himself.

God's way of being God is seen in the humility and weakness of the cross. For this reason the Lord says that while no one born of a woman is greater than John the Baptist, yet even the very least in the kingdom is greater than John: Himself. Jesus is the "least" here. He makes Himself least, makes Himself smallest, "The Son of Man did not come to be waited upon, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[timothyu]

Jesus set an example of what was expected of us according to His Gospel of the Kingdom. He did nothing of His own accord but only the will of the Father just as we would be expected to do when God establishes His governance over us (thy Kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven).

Perhaps if the focus was put back on Jesus' only Gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom, then people would stop thinking about what's in it for us and building a false religion around that, and return to the concept it was all about the return of God to establish governance over mankind. Yes we will benefit in the end but man will not let go of self serving ways easily and that includes the Church which re-aligned itself with the governments of man rather than God centuries ago.

 

[Norbert L]

Hi..
Before Jesus' crucifixion he was able to say things about the Father knowing, but not the Son. E.g....
“But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

As I understand it, that was Jesus' human nature speaking.

Did Jesus lose that human nature when he was crucified? Could you comment on this?

Likely it's another secret being kept, as was the crucifixion. 1 Corinthians 2:8

Plus it's human nature to believe that all lies are evil, which is easily debunked. Case in point. During WWII if a person was hiding Jews from being sent to the Nazi Concentration camps and Hitler asked that person, "Are you hiding any Jews?" That person can reply, "No!". He would of given a righteous answer.

 

[Hawkins]

God's omniscience is based off God's omnipotence. That is, God can choose to know all things and He also has the ability to choose not to know something. In a complete separation from God, God chooses not to know those separated, they go their own way without God's knowledge as God doesn't want to know how the wicked sinning in a total separation.

Similarly, Jesus has the ability (as His omnipotence) to fully submit to God the Father when Jesus is incarnated as a human. In that state, He only knows when God the Father wants Him to know.

Omniscience is not something uncontrollable or else it conflicts with omnipotence. Both omniscience and omnipresence are based off God's omnipotence. That is, God has the full ability to be anywhere and know anything, however that's only when He wants to do so. Moreover, He has the full ability to choose not to be somewhere (i.e., He's not present in a burning hell), and not to know something (such as the final fate of the wicked).

If you are a capable person, you don't want to stay inside a pool of poos forever, do you?