Human Abilities

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Open ended discussion...

Did humans have the ability to write the entire contents of the Bible without the aid of any real God at all?

If one states 'no', please provide 'proof' as to why such ancient texts could not be merely written and derived by human thoughts exclusively?

If one states 'yes', then why should anyone trust the Bible above and beyond any other book of assertions?

(Disclaimer: I already understand 'proof' may lie within the eye of the beholder; and that many conclusions may represent conformation bias. But we may want to ask ourselves, are our conclusions of such a topic consistent? Meaning, do we evaluate other topics equally, or is there instead a presented level of partial or complete cognitive dissonance applied where religion, and maybe even politics, are concerned?).

Thank you in advance for any and all responses and/or comments
 
Last edited:
  • Prayers
Reactions: hid in him

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,649
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Did humans have the ability to write the entire contents of the Bible without the aid of any real God at all?
Well, one possibility with this is if DNA evolution would select people who could think and experience what the Bible says can be in sharing with God.

No I do not think humans surviving and favoring those who help them could or would have reason to develop and hallucinate what we read in the Bible. And no I do not think evolution would allow what is in the Bible and in falsely Christian church culture.

My experience is if we get with God, we won't be what this world wants but we will be alive in love. And even though we don't have our main focus on only surviving, God takes care of us better than how we took care of our own selves and ones we used while we loved selfishly.

Look at how certain people with pets can be so independent, yet can only or mainly be able to relate with animals. Independence is an idol which has very much ruined people from being able to share as family, and care for others rather than just or mainly use people. This is what human culture has produced, in its so-called survival of the fittest > not what would produce the Bible and experiencing God who is all-loving and personal with each of His children.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Please note that it seems clear to me that all the nonsensical whims and notions and heathen beliefs about dna evolution do not reflect Yahweh's Will, Purpose, Plan nor His Word, but are directly opposed to Him in every way as far as I can tell.

The enemy of Christ, and the society of the world, promote things when Yahweh calls them abominations. What mankind calls great and good and worthy of honor, Yahweh dismisses as worse than nothing, according to His Word.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: com7fy8
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Open ended discussion...

Did humans have the ability to write the entire contents of the Bible without the aid of any real God at all?

If one states 'no', please provide 'proof' as to why such ancient texts could not be merely written and derived by human thoughts exclusively?

This is an awkward way of asking for proof that the Bible is God's word.

The Westminster Larger Catechism has offered some evidences (not proofs):

Q. 4. How doth it appear that the Scriptures are of the Word of God?

A. The Scriptures manifest themselves to be the Word of God, by their majesty[7] and purity;[8] by the consent of all the parts,[9] and the scope of the whole, which is to give all glory to God;[10] by their light and power to convince and convert sinners, to comfort and build up believers unto salvation:[11] but the Spirit of God bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able fully to persuade it that they are the very word of God.[12]

To put that in layman's terms...

The Bible evidences itself to be God's word by:
  1. Its majesty and purity - The literary masterpiece of Scripture, the excellence of its moral doctrine, etc... demonstrate that it is a divine work.

  2. The consent of all its parts - Though written by over 40 authors over a period of 2000 years in three different languages, the Bible has an amazingly consistent and unified message. It tells one unfolding story. This is evidence of one divine author, or director, behind the manifold work of Scripture.

  3. The scope of the whole which is to give glory to God - No work of man would give glory to God. Man's works tend to give glory to man. But the Bible has a low view of mankind and gives all glory to God.

  4. Its power to convert sinners and build up believers - Atheists like yourself have been converted by simply reading Scripture or hearing it taught. Believers have been built up and edified by it and found unfathomable wealth within it.
But even after all these evidences, the confession maintains that only the Holy Spirit working in the heart of a person can fully persuade them that the Bible is God's word and not man's invention. Unless the Holy Spirit opens your eyes and softens your heart to God, you will never believe. Not even if someone should rise from the dead (and someone has)!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jacks
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,649
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
heathen beliefs about dna evolution do not reflect Yahweh's Will, Purpose, Plan nor His Word,
amen

One thing I consider is we humans can have a way of believing what we want to be true. We can accept what fits with our character.

So, I find it interesting how people of this world can be so about comparison and competition, and along with this they believe in evolution which includes competition.

And we see how people become as they try to get more than what others have, and even try to be better than other people.

But better needs to be in comparison with Jesus and how He wants us to become :)
 
Upvote 0

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
78
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Please note that it seems clear to me that all the nonsensical whims and notions and heathen beliefs about dna evolution do not reflect Yahweh's Will, Purpose, Plan nor His Word, but are directly opposed to Him in every way as far as I can tell.

The enemy of Christ, and the society of the world, promote things when Yahweh calls them abominations. What mankind calls great and good and worthy of honor, Yahweh dismisses as worse than nothing, according to His Word.
Evolution and DNA are not heathen beliefs, they are scientific facts, facts that Christian scientists also support, and I find it rather strange that you are so against the things of this world yet you are using a tool to convey your distaste for things of this world, namely your computer. Is using a computer your only concession to scientific advancement or do you live in a cave to ensure such basic things as electricity or the use of the combustion engine for travel don't contaminate your life.? If you do live in a cave it must get pretty cold at times. Have you discovered how to make fire yet?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: gaara4158
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,681
68
Tolworth
✟369,589.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Did humans have the ability to write the entire contents of the Bible without the aid of any real God at all?

Do you mean did or does one person or a team or a series of people in different time periods.

The bible was not written by one person or by a team of people. It was written by a series of people including editors.
What makes the bible unique is the remarkable level of historical accuracy that is found in it.

As you say proof is in the onlooker and your skeptism, that you apply to everything except atheism, makes you doubt any evidence.

I would suggest reading the work of prof Robert dick wilson whos examination of the grammer in the OT and the use of words showned that the OT was written durring the times it claims to havebeen written e.g. Mosess educated in egypt and used many egyption words and pharases. Other dominent powers simarly added words to the OT, but not when the high critics assume the ot to have been wtitten.
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Do you mean did or does one person or a team or a series of people in different time periods.

The bible was not written by one person or by a team of people. It was written by a series of people including editors.
What makes the bible unique is the remarkable level of historical accuracy that is found in it.

As you say proof is in the onlooker and your skeptism, that you apply to everything except atheism, makes you doubt any evidence.

I would suggest reading the work of prof Robert dick wilson whos examination of the grammer in the OT and the use of words showned that the OT was written durring the times it claims to havebeen written e.g. Mosess educated in egypt and used many egyption words and pharases. Other dominent powers simarly added words to the OT, but not when the high critics assume the ot to have been wtitten.

I'm fully aware that the general consensus is that the Bible comprises of ~40 authors, written over 66 chapters.

Let me condense my question. It is possible or plausible that the entire literary works/writings of the Bible were written by mere men, with absolutely no inspiration or divine help, as claimed? If not, why not?.?.?.?
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Please note that it seems clear to me that all the nonsensical whims and notions and heathen beliefs about dna evolution do not reflect Yahweh's Will, Purpose, Plan nor His Word, but are directly opposed to Him in every way as far as I can tell.

The enemy of Christ, and the society of the world, promote things when Yahweh calls them abominations. What mankind calls great and good and worthy of honor, Yahweh dismisses as worse than nothing, according to His Word.

This response sparks two questions/observations...

1. I notice that most of the ones whom answer such types of questions here on this forum may also accept evolution by natural selection, and all other scientific theory and principles, as sound measures in reality. So I must ask.... Why is it that when a bold assertion is made as such, to the contrary, practically no Christians ever respond in opposition? Is it because if one has the label "Christian" upon their avatar, they are virtually given carte blanche to make practically any assertion they wish, as long as they are a believer? I was hoping we were all in the pursuit of truth.

2. I did state in the OP that this is an 'open ended discussion.' So I must ask...

If evolution by natural selection was demonstrated in a way in which you could no longer refute it's claims by the presented evidence, would this then discredit your belief in Yahweh/Jesus/God/Bible? Is this why you appear threatened?

You do realize that there exists many 'old earthers' and Christians whom accept evolution by natural selection right?

Furthermore, lets grant every statement you've made thus far regardless - That evolution is a complete lie. How does this PROVE Yahweh regardless? How do you leap from evolution is false, to Yahweh being true?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Q. 4. How doth it appear that the Scriptures are of the Word of God?

Unless the Holy Spirit opens your eyes and softens your heart to God, you will never believe.

So are you saying that God chooses who/whom He wishes to believe in Him?

Why not just make it to where everyone 'knows' He exists. You could still have plenty of free will to reject Him, like Satan for instance.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
So are you saying that God chooses who/whom He wishes to believe in Him?


Yes.

Why not just make it to where everyone 'knows' He exists. You could still have plenty of free will to reject Him, like Satan for instance.

Everyone does know that he exists. You know he exists deep down. Yet you suppress this knowledge because you cannot stand for it to be true.
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Everyone does know that he exists. You know he exists deep down. Yet you suppress this knowledge because you cannot stand for it to be true.

This is patently false. You think I would spend so much time on here if I already knew such a claimed agent existed? The answer is NO. If it was true, I would either profess to rebel or accept it. Not instead ask for evidence or arguments to demonstrate it's claimed and asserted truth for existence.

You think there would be ongoing knock-down-drag-out philosophical debates for and against the existence of a God(s)?

It is absolutely no different than a Hindu telling you that you know 'deep down' that Vishnu exists.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,437
2,685
United States
✟196,179.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Yes.



Everyone does know that he exists. You know he exists deep down. Yet you suppress this knowledge because you cannot stand for it to be true.
It is not an effective argument style to claim to know what’s in your interlocutor’s mind better than they do. Not only does it come across as arrogant and condescending, but your interlocutor also has privileged access to proof that you’re incorrect. If you open with a claim that’s already completely incorrect, why should anyone take anything you say seriously?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: cvanwey
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
It is not an effective argument style to claim to know what’s in your interlocutor’s mind better than they do. Not only does it come across as arrogant and condescending, but your interlocutor also has privileged access to proof that you’re incorrect. If you open with a claim that’s already completely incorrect, why should anyone take anything you say seriously?

I'm not attempting to make an argument. I'm simply stating the truth and commending it to your conscience.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,437
2,685
United States
✟196,179.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm not attempting to make an argument. I'm simply stating the truth and commending it to your conscience.
It’s not true. It’s not convincing, persuasive, or compelling in any way. It just hurts your credibility. I don’t know why you do it.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
It’s not true. It’s not convincing, persuasive, or compelling in any way. It just hurts your credibility. I don’t know why you do it.

It is true.

One of the front lines of your intellectual scheme is that there is no god. But for all atheists, this is a very superficial thesis. Deep down, you think, speak, and act as if there was a god. But you have to continually remind yourself and reassert that there is no god. You superficially suppress what you know to be true deep down.

Deep down you acknowledge universal moral norms that bind all people. It's impossible to live otherwise. But if there is no god, there can be no universal norms. When you are wronged you feel a need for justice. But justice is a ridiculous concept if there is no lawgiver and judge. You acknowledge that the universe is full of wonder, awe, and wisdom and that the physical world is governed by a set of laws that can be studied, known, and utilized. But all of this quietly presupposes a rational creator who stands behind the universe.

There are many such deep intuitions and instincts that you live by every day and would be impossible to live without. All of them depend upon the existence of God. You certainly know that he exists, but it displeases you that he exists and so you superficially deny his existence and vainly attempt to suppress the truth that you know deeply.
 
Upvote 0

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,437
2,685
United States
✟196,179.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It is true.

One of the front lines of your intellectual scheme is that there is no god. But for all atheists, this is a very superficial thesis. Deep down, you think, speak, and act as if there was a god. But you have to continually remind yourself and reassert that there is no god. You superficially suppress what you know to be true deep down.

Deep down you acknowledge universal moral norms that bind all people. It's impossible to live otherwise. But if there is no god, there can be no universal norms. When you are wronged you feel a need for justice. But justice is a ridiculous concept if there is no lawgiver and judge. You acknowledge that the universe is full of wonder, awe, and wisdom and that the physical world is governed by a set of laws that can be studied, known, and utilized. But all of this quietly presupposes a rational creator who stands behind the universe.

There are many such deep intuitions and instincts that you live by every day and would be impossible to live without. All of them depend upon the existence of God. You certainly know that he exists, but it displeases you that he exists and so you superficially deny his existence and vainly attempt to suppress the truth that you know deeply.
No. It’s really not true. You assume there are no compelling reasons to behave morally or follow other natural intuitions in the absence of a god, and this leads you make incorrect inferences about the state of my psyche. You need to demonstrate this underlying premise, that morality and other intuitions cannot be compelling in the absence of a god, before you can conclude that atheists all behave as though there is a god.

The assertion that there is no god isn’t terribly meaningful to me. I’ve never seen two people with the same exact concept of a god, so I don’t know exactly what I’d be negating if I said there is no god. It’s far from the “front lines” of my intellectual scheme. I will, however, vociferously object when someone claims to know what I believe better than I do.

I could just as easily assert that you know deep down that there is no god, but you can’t stand the idea of this life being all you’ll ever experience so you delude yourself with a fantasy to quiet your existential dread. I could explain that you see injustice and tragedy all around you, maybe even happening to you, and you constantly have to remind yourself that although it makes sense that all this would happen in the absence of a loving god, it’s all part of God’s plan, a plan beyond reproach and beyond comprehension. I could argue that way, but that would be just as disingenuous as what you’re doing.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Par5
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
No. It’s really not true. You assume there are no compelling reasons to behave morally or follow other natural intuitions in the absence of a god, and this leads you make incorrect inferences about the state of my psyche. You need to demonstrate this underlying premise, that morality and other intuitions cannot be compelling in the absence of a god, before you can conclude that atheists all behave as though there is a god.

I'm not saying there are no other compelling reasons to behave morally. There are 99 compelling reasons to behave morally that don't need to explicitly acknowledge God. But every one of these reasons quietly assumes God's existence. And the fact that you expect others to behave morally quietly assumes God's existence. If you think about it too hard and dig too deep, you'll discover this profound contradiction within your belief system. Nietzsche came close to discovering the contradiction and he rightly attempted to reject all moral constraints in the same way that he rejected theism. This was merely an intellectual stunt for him, however, as he did not live according to his philosophy.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,437
2,685
United States
✟196,179.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm not saying there are no other compelling reasons to behave morally. There are 99 compelling reasons to behave morally that don't need to explicitly acknowledge God. But every one of these reasons quietly assumes God's existence. And the fact that you expect others to behave morally quietly assumes God's existence. If you think about it too hard and dig too deep, you'll discover this profound contradiction within your belief system. Nietzsche came close to discovering the contradiction and he rightly attempted to reject all moral constraints in the same way that he rejected theism. This was merely an intellectual stunt for him, however, as he did not live according to his philosophy.
No, they don’t. It is perfectly rational to behave morally out of pure self-interest and expect others to as well, even if you don’t have moral intuitions. There is no quiet, moderate, or explicit assumption of God’s existence necessary for this. Only the desire to live long and prosper is necessary.
 
Upvote 0