HOW

[Hoshiyya]

When we have been exposed to the divine culture, the high culture, the noble culture, the beautiful way of life, the beautiful way of worship, the beautiful way of doing things, the heavenly way of doing things, the logical way of doing things, (the way of doing things as they are done in the temple in Shamaya,) should we be satisfied with the unbeautiful way of doing things, the non-numinous way of doing things, the undivine way of doing things, the illogical way of doing things ?

Other ways can be good, even beautiful, but by comparison they are inferior; the way of Shamaya is the true dignity, the true nobleness, the true beauty.
How can lesser ways, particularly the low-fi, secularizing, modern western anti-religion of Protestantism (a child on the world-stage, not even 1000 years old) possibly hope to pull away from THE WAY someone who has rejoiced in the light of Hashem ?

 

[Shimshon]

One man's meat is another man's poison.

 

[Hoshiyya]

One man's meat is another man's poison.

But if a man knows the difference between actual meat and actual poison, why would he choose, to use your term, poison ?

Or if he knows the difference between a superior meat and a lesser meat, why would he pretend the lesser is superior ?

 

[pearcekj]

The ways of Jesus Christ looked pretty ugly and secular to the "tried and true" Pharisees and Saducees. How did the Jews and Gentiles of the early church, a "child on the world stage" then, choose their meat and unite in the body of Christ?

Romans 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[Hoshiyya]

The ways of Jesus Christ looked pretty ugly and secular to the "tried and true" Pharisees and Saducees. How did the Jews and Gentiles of the early church, a "child on the world stage" then, choose their meat and unite in the body of Christ?

Romans 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

1. "The ways of Jesus Christ looked pretty ugly and secular to the "tried and true" Pharisees and Saducees."

I don't see any evidence of that in scripture. In fact, the Sadducees were the secularists. It is quite an interesting topic, I advise you to familiarize yourself with this. They were the liberal and wealthy who made common cause with the Roman occupation.

Yeshua and the Pharisees both represented the beauty of religion and tradition over against the secularizing influence of the Sadducees.
Yeshua specifically said "whatever the Pharisees tell you to do, do it". He would never have said that about the Sadducees.

2. To me, the way of Yeshua is very beautiful, so what is your point ?

 

[Shimshon]

A person's knowing comes from an assumption of one's own reality. In other words, faith. A hope and assurance of things we do not see. Conversely, there is no such hope in someone who thinks himself right in his own eyes.

What is it that you are so sure of that you continue to pit one against another? Should not the wise lift up those of lesser position?

 

[pearcekj]

Jesus was rejected as Messiah by many involved in organized religion during that time. They could memorize the Torah but didn't know what to make of Him. His ways are very beautiful but many of the established religious folks didn't see the beauty then, they saw a threat to the outward comforts and prestige of the traditions and the laws of men. Of course, the Jews who truly did love God all along, recognized Messiah and followed. Gentiles recognized this beauty as well, followed and were grafted in.

His ways are beautiful for both the Jew and the Gentile, but what defines that beauty is very personal between the individual and God. Jews and Gentiles should be careful not to judge one another's heart towards Christ based on differences in how we are led by His Holy Spirit to glorify Him.

 

[Hoshiyya]

What is it that you are so sure of that you continue to pit one against another? Should not the wise lift up those of lesser position?

The question here is, how can anyone, particularly the Protestants/Liberals, expect me or anyone to prefer their way to a superior way, the way of Hashem ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

Jesus was rejected as Messiah by many involved in organized religion during that time. They could memorize the Torah but didn't know what to make of Him. His ways are very beautiful but many of the established religious folks didn't see the beauty then, they saw a threat to the outward comforts and prestige of the traditions and the laws of men. Of course, the Jews who truly did love God all along, recognized Messiah and followed. Gentiles recognized this beauty as well, followed and were grafted in.

His ways are beautiful for both the Jew and the Gentile, but what defines that beauty is very personal between the individual and God. Jews and Gentiles should be careful not to judge one another's heart towards Christ based on differences in how we are led by His Holy Spirit to glorify Him.

What makes Yeshua's teachings beautiful is the fact that they are divine, reflecting the noble way, the way things are done in heaven.

 

[Shimshon]

The question here is, how can anyone, particularly the Protestants, expect me to prefer their way to a superior way, the way of Hashem ?

I see, you're calling them out. I will not stand between you two then .

 

[Hoshiyya]

I see, you're calling them out. I will not stand between you two then .

They are the ones who keep coming here, missionaries of other religions tend to not do this as much as them. The Protestants are the ones trying to undermine MJ. If it was eg. Sikhs or Muslims or whatever who kept coming here, I would mention them instead.

According to your profile you are MJ, so I don't know exactly what to make of your posts or where you are coming from.

 

[pearcekj]

Protestants should not expect you to go against the beautiful way you know in your heart you are called to glorify God. They are in error. But you should also not condemn all Protestants who come to Christ like a child and seek to glorify Him in the way He has shown them. Not all Protestants do this and our Father does not view our attempts to follow Him as inferior. It seems maybe you are voicing frustrations with those that are the aggressors though.

I am a Gentile, but don't identify with any particular denomination.

 

[Hoshiyya]

But you should also not condemn all Protestants

I compliment all the religions. To return to our metaphor, they are delicious steaks. But one steak is superior, to me. So how can they possibly expect me to pretend otherwise?

And as it happens, the Protestants are the ones condemning me to hell. I have never condemned anyone to hell.

 

[pearcekj]

Perhaps they have not yet tasted a delicious steak of their own yet. Many self-professed Christians have not yet experienced a revelation of Christ's love and so they remain insecure, feeling rejected, looking at what others are doing with envy and strife, like dogs fighting over the food bowl, unsure of their next meal. Those of us that have been well fed by our Father can rest and trust that He will provide for us again and again. We no longer need to fight.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Perhaps they have not yet tasted a delicious steak of their own yet. Many self-professed Christians have not yet experienced a revelation of Christ's love and so they remain insecure, feeling rejected, looking at what others are doing with envy and strife, like dogs fighting over the food bowl, unsure of their next meal. Those of us that have been well fed by our Father can rest and trust that He will provide for us again and again. We no longer need to fight.

"We no longer need to fight"

Yet the Protestants, more so than anyone else, keep coming here to undermine and challenge our religion, which is MJ. It's not the Orthodox Christians, the Sikhs or the Taoists. If it was them, I would mention them instead. But as it stands, Orthodox Christianity, Coptic Christianity and Catholicism (the traditional forms) are more beautiful and divine than Protestantism, so they might have an easier time convincing me than the Prots.

Incidentally, if I compared anyone to dogs, I'm sure someone would criticize me for that.

Interesting that you warn or tell me to not "condemn" Protestants, when in fact you call some of them dogs, and they condemn me to hell.

 

[pearcekj]

Every denomination has it's flaws. I think it's better to look at the heart of the individual. All men are equally wretched and ugly without Christ. The only beauty in any denomination is from Jesus Christ. He looked over the whole earth and found every man from every denomination wanting. None were good.

I believe Jesus Christ referred to Gentiles as dogs, and as a Gentile, I say, "Truth, Lord":

Matthew 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The world condemned Jesus Christ to hell, beat him to a bloody pulp and killed Him and yet He forgave them. I encourage you to forgive Protestants for their forum posts until seventy times seven.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Every denomination has it's flaws.... I encourage you to forgive Protestants for their forum posts until seventy times seven.

If I referred to someone as dogs, someone like Shimson would probably come to correct me. If I referred to Protestants as dogs you would probably correct me.

Forgiveness is not the issue. The fact that you think that says a lot. This is a matter of truth and untruth, greater beauty and lesser beauty, not forgiveness and sin. Forgiveness ONLY matters relative to physical fines and punishments in a court of Jewish law.

Every unit of civilization has its merits and its flaws, but one has the greater potential than the others.

Traditional religions, including traditional Christianity, can be very beautiful, but any form of religion based on protest is by definition intellectually and logically inferior.

 

[pearcekj]

So your criticism is moreso towards the inferior outward framework of the Protestant denomination, which was essentially born of and built upon rebellion rather than submission? As even Christ taught, implied and demonstrated submission to authority, even if it was flawed authority like the Pharisees, Sanhedrin or Roman Caesar.

 

[Hoshiyya]

So your criticism is moreso towards the inferior outward framework of the Protestant denomination, which was essentially born of and built upon rebellion rather than submission? As even Christ taught, implied and demonstrated submission to authority, even if it was flawed authority like the Pharisees, Sanhedrin or Roman Caesar.

Protestants make up the majority of the people who come to this subforum to challenge, undermine and ultimately try to convert us away from the true religion. The curious thing is, they are the least capable of challenging or replacing the truth. Almost every other religion would have an easier time.

I don't see Yeshua submitting to the Romans or Sadducees, except in the sense that he paid taxes. If his visitation to earth was the 2nd coming, he would have destroyed the Roman occupation, with violence if necessary, and probably the Sadducees as well. Not the Pharisees, however. He specifically said "whatever they tell you to do, do it."

 

[pearcekj]

I understand now where you're coming from. I think the old Protestant in me misunderstood your intent. I appreciate your patience, brother.