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Featured How- You Can Keep The Law, No Law Is Against You, You Are Free From The Law And Not Under The Law

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by gospels, Jul 26, 2019.

  1. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Can you please interact with what I've said instead of just ignoring it and citing other verses?
     
  2. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    I didn't read every reply, but in response to your opening post: It is true that God's Spirit knows God's Law and that when we live by God's Spirit we'll keep God's Law. It is important though that we understand and reiterate what God' Law actually says and instructs in order to understand and identify what it means to be led by God's Spirit. Otherwise we are opening ourselves up to lawlessness since otherwise it is easy to call anything of the Spirit of God because it is accompanied by good feelings, because lots of zealous people do it, or whatever. The Spirit of God will never contradict God's Word, and to be in the strait and narrow way we need to be in a place where applying the Word of God and the promptings of God's Spirit are working hand in hand in us and feeding off each other. To live by every Word of God and to be led by the Spirit of God are inseparable; so those who don't love and have a heart to do every Word of God are still at enmity with God and the experiences they have which they label of God's Spirit, and the hopes they have of being free from condemnation, are delusions. Some Scriptures below to consider on this:

    1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

    Earlier in 1 John the following was stated. This is speaking of something not any different than being led by God's Spirit. 1 John 2:3-6 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

    2 Corinthians 11:3-4: "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
     
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  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have but nothing I say or what these verses say will change your mind so I am just going to post scriptures about the old law so people reading will know that Christians are not supposed to follow the Mosaic laws and are in fact freed from the burden and bondage of that law.
     
  4. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

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    I absolutely agree with this because Christ fulfilled that law and He put us under His grace. Christ did what no man could ever uphold on this earth. Jesus Christ was and is perfect. :yellowheart: His yoke is light: Matthew 11:30
     
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  5. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    "To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5, this is precisely what he then proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so Jesus was one of countless people who have done that. In Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret it in the same way as fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, namely obeying it as it should be. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again referred to causing Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed.

    According to Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct us how to do. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to 2 Peter 3:17-18, growing in grace is contrasted with being taken away with the error of Lawless men. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into license for immorality. According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His Law (Psalm 40:8), so grace is the power of God to overcome Lawlessness in our lives and it is by grace that God teaches us to walk in His ways in accordance with His Law.

    The goal of a disciple was to come under a rabbi's yoke and to learn from them how to obey the Torah by memorizing their teachings, by learning how to think and act like them, and by essentially becoming an imitation of them. We see verses along this line in 1 John 2:3-6, 1 Peter 2:21-22, and 1 Corinthians 11:1. In Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus was inviting people to become his disciples and to learn from him how to obey the Torah. By saying that he would give us rest, he remezed that he he was God because it is God who gives us rest (Exodus 33:14), by saying that he was humble of heart, he remezed that he was the second Moses that they were expecting (Numbers 12:3, Deuteronomy 18:15-19), and he remezed that he was the Torah (Jeremiah 6:16-19). He certainly was not inviting people to rebel against what the Father has commanded and to refuse to follow him.
     
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  6. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

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    What is the law of sin and death? And from where did this law come from?

    What is “the law of her husband”? Who gave that law against adultery?

     
  7. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    If you're not wanting to discuss verses, then the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you think that Paul taught us to rebel against obeying what God has commanded, then you should be quicker to disregard everything that he said than to disregard what God has commanded. Paul did not have the authority to countermand God or to tell anyone not to obey any of His commands, nor did he try to do so, nor should we follow him instead of God if if you insist that is what he was trying to do.
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The law of sin and death is not so much a list of rules as it is a principle or an evil inclination that stirs up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. However, in Romans 7:7, Paul said that God's Law is not sinful, but that it was given to reveal what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that should lead us to repent and cause sin to decrease, so it is the opposite of the law of sin. In Romans 7:12-22, Paul said that God's Law is good and that he wanted to do good, but that there was a law of sin that was working within him to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do. So verses that speak about a law that is sinful or that causes sin to increase should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, not to the Mosaic Law, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.


    Or do you not know, brothers[a]—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

    The law of her husband is the law of marriage that binds her to her husband that would cause her to commit adultery if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive, which is the law that she would be released from if her husband was to die. If she were to then get married to another man, then she would still be required to refrain from committing adultery, so at no point was she ever set free from being required to obey God's Law. It is God who gave the law against adultery.
     
  9. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

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    Thank you. I consider it a blessing and a miracle to have Messianic's and learn from them. We need greater understanding of God's torah and Hebrew point of view to better understand what the apostles were actually speaking about when they use these terms in their letters/books.
     
  10. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One day I was reading the 119 psalm and David explained to me how the law was given for our benefit. So that we do what is good and right and true. This is why Jesus can say: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from. the law, till all be fulfilled."
     
  11. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually the "Jewish" people have 613 laws that they follow. This maybe why Jesus said: "2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them" Matthew 23:3
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh, so the law of sin is the opposite of the Mosaic Law. Furthermore, in Matthew 23:2-4, Jesus was not criticizing the Pharisees for teaching the people to obey the Mosaic Law, but for placing all of their mountains of traditions in the backs of the people.
     
  13. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

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    I agree with much of what is said here, but there is a fine line between obeying the Law rather than God Himself, Whom is Spirit. I respect your views, I have just witnessed so many lost in the whole "Hebrew Roots" movement that is completely twisting of the truth. So again, I agree with all scripture, but I am also keeping in mind those that are young in the faith and could easily slide into this kind of thinking "Torah only".

    I understand what you're saying, but I also understand the other view as well. Don't get me wrong, I believe Torah is just as essential as the rest of the Bible that God has handed down to us, but that is more personal growth with God and He should be the focus in getting to know Him and His ways. :yellowheart:
     
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  14. gospels

    gospels Active Member Supporter

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    Can i ask why in Galatians 4:8-11, Paul is saying that observing the days and months and seasons and years is making oneself enslaved to that by nature are not gods and are weak and worthless elementary principles of the world.

    Were they not observing according to the God's Law? Why did Paul refer them as "by nature are not gods and weak and worthless elementary principles of the world".

    Also, why is the example of slave woman Hagar is compared to as being under the law given at Mount Sinai?

    And why did Jesus say that which enters the mouth does not defile the man when God told in His Law to abstain from certain foods to be clean.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  15. ajcarey

    ajcarey Active Member

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    The answer to these questions has to do with the difference between a moral law and a ceremonial law. A moral law is inherently right, good, holy, necessary, etc; it can never cease to be these things since it's a reflection of God's nature and it would be impossible for God Himself to abolish it since it is impossible for God to do evil and to permit anyone to do evil.

    A ceremonial law on the other hand is only right and necessary by God's appointment- and God has the right to bind people with it for a time and God has the right to loose the bands of it when He chooses to do so. God bound the ceremonies of the Law of Moses to Israel for a time for instructional purposes and perhaps other purposes in preparation for Christ and the New Covenant. And even the earliest Christians all kept them and considered themselves bound by them- but then in Acts 10 God permitted Cornelius as a gentile into the His New covenant by giving him the Holy Spirit without circumcision (and circumcision implied being bound to all the ceremonies of Judaism when one received it). And then in Acts chapter 15 the Apostles through the Holy Spirit concluded that God had removed this bondage from gentile Christians in receiving Cornelius and those gentiles converted to Christ by Paul's ministry (including many of the Galatians). They then sent out the letter decreeing this which you see later in Acts 15. The Galatians had received this decree letter (see Acts 16:1-4).

    The Book of Galatians was written after those events because the Galatians had been persuaded to yet impose the Jewish ceremonies contrary to the decree of the Apostles. The Apostle Paul recognized that there was a wrong mentality and a wrong approach to seeking God which had corrupted the Galatians' thinking as they were now abusing the ceremonial law and using it unlawfully. There was a wickedness in the "why" of why they were still choosing bondage to the ceremonies of the Law of Moses. Faith keeps what God has imposed; but to cleave to ceremonial things God has previously imposed but does not impose anymore is perverting the reason He had imposed those things originally and ultimately is seeking God's favor through confidence in the flesh. In Galatians Paul is addressing this fleshly mentality but he is in no way saying that the moral principles found in the Law are not binding anymore- you see him emphasizing that being led by God's Spirit causes one to fulfill those in chapters 5 and 6. In the Galatians' case their unnecessary attachment to the Jewish ceremonies went hand in hand with their erring from focusing on godly character through a living faith in Christ and being conformed to God's image. There are still ceremonies in the New Covenant which are yet binding (baptism, the Lord's Supper) and these can (and must) be done by Christians in faith; but to impose Jewish ceremonies when God Himself stopped imposing them or (even worse) to impose rituals and ceremonies which God never imposed at all is militating against faith and thus opposing God's true grace- and hence is preaching another gospel. You can read the Book of Titus and see how the Judaizers' abuse of the law was substituting for and opposing the true grace of God which ultimately when followed brings people to the very character and manner of living which the Law ultimately prescribes and requires. God's true grace practically redeems those under it from iniquity (i.e. lawlessness).

    Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    QUOTE="gospels, post: 74161564, member: 400717"]Can i ask why in Galatians 4:8-11, Paul is saying that observing the days and months and seasons and years is making oneself enslaved to that by nature are not gods and are weak and worthless elementary principles of the world.

    Were they not observing according to the God's Law? Why did Paul refer them as "by nature are not gods and weak and worthless elementary principles of the world".

    Also, why is the example of slave woman Hagar is compared to as being under the law given at Mount Sinai?

    And why did Jesus say that which enters the mouth does not defile the man when God told in His Law to abstain from certain foods to be clean.[/QUO
    TE
    The differences, and the biggest problem(s), in religious groups appears to be tradition over-riding God's Word, without understanding His Word, and without knowing His Power.(as written somewhere in Scripture)

    Revelation from the Father is required, as His Word Says, and is granted generously to those who ask Him, without reproach.

    There have been a few true teachers explaining these problems, accurately. Seek, and keep seeking (off site), and God Promises in His Word you will find.
     
  17. Monksailor

    Monksailor Active Member Supporter

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    Love what you have said and how you aligned with Scripture, only problem is the same problem the USA Constitution drafters/signers had in not even being able to imagine how corrupt (anti-Christ/God) our country would become. Some of the fruit of the Spirit such as goodness and faithfulness can be and ARE seen in deplorable ways by others. Standing firm and being faithful to God about what He says about an unborn baby being a human life, about what He says is a perversion as in Romans ch1, or even about giving in secret are seen by some who now have a significant influence in changing the laws of our land as something to be annihilated- laws implemented making it ILLEGAL. In 2005 there was a law implemented in Canada, for example, that made it a criminal offense and punishable with jail time if one just quoted what the Bible says about homosexuality. US of A is teetering upon such a perversion of the law. It is good and commanded that we try to save as many souls as we can before the "Judgement." But many institutions have laws, EVEN prisons, against proselytizing.
     
  18. RexColin

    RexColin New Member

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    ummm the Law of Christ is the Law of Moses. If you read the Law of Moses you can easily see that it is about loving God with all your being and love others. Even Jesus taught that. I'm afraid the term "under the Law" has been misrepresented in that is a person whom has broken the law (sinned) and under it's curse (divorce from God, death) for doing so, hence that only God can pay the eternal price of that penalty through his death, in doing so we now have eternal life. I'm sorry to say, but until you have a solid grasp on the lawful use of the Law, you do not know what Paul is talking about in his messages. The Law is intended to bless us when we abide in it. I think it's great you know scripture, but more importantly you need to know the scripture, the culture, history, and context of what the NT was based on before you go teaching falsely unintentionally and lead others astray. God's word clearly says that the Law is forever and for ALL persons. Jesus is the Lawgiver, so no matter how much you feel joy about him, if you break his Laws he gave then you break the covenant that binds you in life with him.
     
  19. RexColin

    RexColin New Member

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    Deu 11:26-27 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: (27) the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I am commanding you today;
    Gen 4:7-9 NASB "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." (8) Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. (9) Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?"
    Exo 20:19-20 NASB Then they said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die." (20) Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin."
    Sinner/sinful = Hebrew chaṭṭâ' (khat-taw') Strong’s H2400; a criminal, or one accounted guilty: - offender, sinful, sinner.
    •In order to be a criminal you have to have committed a crime, in order to commit a crime, you must break a Law.
    1Jn 3:4-12 NASB Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. (5) You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. (6) No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. (7) Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; (8) the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. (9) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (10) By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. (11) For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; (12) not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brothers were righteous.
    1.Is anyone who does not practice the Law born of God?
    Mat 24:11-14 NASB "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. (12) "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. (13) "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (14) "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
    2.What does Jesus say The Gospel is?
    Joh_14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
    3.If you truly love Jesus, what will you do?
    Joh_14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
    Joh_14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
    4.What does Jesus say that love is?
    Deu 30:10-11 NASB if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. (11) "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
    Rom_13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
    5.What does Paul say Love is?
    a.Fulfillment = the meeting of a requirement or condition
    1Co 13:3-7 NASB And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. (4) Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, (5) does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, (6) does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; (7) bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments.
    6.What does John say Love is? Walk/live according to the Commandments of God.
    1Jn 5:2-4 NASB By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. (3) For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
    1Pe_4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
    Mat 7:21-24 NASB "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (22) "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (24) "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
    Mat 5:17-18 NASB "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. (18) "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
    7.Has the Commandments of God, the Law of God, been done away with by Jesus?
    8.Has Heaven and Earth passed away yet?
    1Ti 1:5-8 NASB But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (6) For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, (7) wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. (8) But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully
    9.How do we know when the Law of God is good?
    Jas 1:25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
    10.Who will be blessed in what he does?
    Psa 119:44-47 NASB So I will keep Your law continually, Forever and ever. (45) And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts. (46) I will also speak of Your testimonies before kings And shall not be ashamed. (47) I shall delight in Your commandments, Which I love.
    Mat 24:12-13 NASB "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. (13) "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
    Ecc 12:13-14 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. (14) For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
    11.To whom does “fear God and keep his commandments” apply to?
    Exo 20:6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
    Deu 5:10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
    Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
    12.Does that love for God include you?
    Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the COMMANDMENTS of God and their FAITH in Jesus.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS.
    Rev 22:12-13 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to WHAT HE HAS DONE. (13) "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
    Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No those are two different laws.

    Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


    There are only two laws. The old Sinai law of sin and death and the "law of Christ" which is the law of the Spirit of life!




    1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
    1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without law.
    1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.



    Here again the two are compared.




    James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.





    James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.





    It is also called "the law of liberty" because it is the opposite of the law of bondage, that same old law of sin and death.
     
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