How will people know?

[Handmaid for Jesus]

My question is not about the rapture. My question is about the onset of the great tribulation guys , and how will people know it has begun? Do you think there is a way to know it has begun?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

People will/do deny it. There are vast numbers that expect to be "raptured" before the Apocalypse, when they are not, some will lose faith, others will deny the obvious. It's gonna get ugly.
But that's the whole point, isn't it?

As Christ has said "those who will not pass through the door of mercy must go through the door of justice."

So, what will identify the apocalypse?

 

[DavidPT]

Regardless of what rapture view we all hold, I think most of us can agree that the last seven years before Lord Jesus returns will be the worst and most devastating years on Earth since the world began. I just want to explore these questions.How will people know when this terrible period has begun? Will people know that this period has begun? Will people deny that this period has begun?

I'm Post Trib Premil. Premils are known for taking things literally. I'm the exception to that then. I noticed some are basing these things on seeing a literal 3rd temple sitting in Jerusalem, where someone sitting in it is proclaiming to be God. And that some see the 2 witnesses in Rev 12 meaning two literal people. So on and so on. But what if, as I tend to think, very little, if any of these things at all, are meant to be understood in the literal sense? We could already be in the midst of these times right now, but that many would not even realize it because they are still waiting for these things to come to pass in a literal way. Something to think about anyway.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I'm Post Trib Premil. Premils are known for taking things literally. I'm the exception to that then. I noticed some are basing these things on seeing a literal 3rd temple sitting in Jerusalem, where someone sitting in it is proclaiming to be God. And that some see the 2 witnesses in Rev 12 meaning two literal people. So on and so on. But what if, as I tend to think, very little, if any of these things at all, are meant to be understood in the literal sense? We could already be in the midst of these times right now, but that many would not even realize it because they are still waiting for these things to come to pass in a literal way. Something to think about anyway.

Yes you are right. But don't you think there is a definitive event that allows people to know that the last seven years before the return of the King have begun? Or do you think people will not know?

 

[Widlast]

So, what will identify the apocalypse?

When a statue of a world leader stands in the inner sanctum of the temple in Jerusalem and a world leader demands that he should be worshiped. At that point the Apocalypse has been going on for 4 years or so.
All the other signs are occurring NOW, and have been for a few years. The falling away, turning the world upside down, ridiculous farce passed off as truth, earthquakes, storms, wars, etc.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

When a statue of a world leader stands in the inner sanctum of the temple in Jerusalem and a world leader demands that he should be worshiped. At that point the Apocalypse has been going on for 4 years or so.
All the other signs are occurring NOW, and have been for a few years. The falling away, turning the world upside down, ridiculous farce passed off as truth, earthquakes, storms, wars, etc.

OK, so in your opinion it will start after the third Temple has been erected?

 

[iamlamad]

Regardless of what rapture view we all hold, I think most of us can agree that the last seven years before Lord Jesus returns will be the worst and most devastating years on Earth since the world began. I just want to explore these questions.How will people know when this terrible period has begun? Will people know that this period has begun? Will people deny that this period has begun?

I agree with your premise: God's wrath will be shown increasingly more during the 70th week, and by the time the vials of His wrath are poured out, the worst.

It will not be that difficult to know when the 70th week begins. It will be VERY shortly after the rapture will have removed the saints from the earth. Then wait for the nuclear war to begin, and people will KNOW the trumpet judgments have begun. They will start out the 70th week.

 

[Waterwerx]

I see the tribulation as the time that God gives all of His people a common foe and we will rally around Him and each other in a way we have not before. It is used to draw us closer, not punish us. I think we have the wrong view of tribulation here.

Christians in general have a very limited or incorrect view of what the tribulation's purpose is(or rather, its multiple purposes).
Scripture mentions it as being a refinement process: its either going to bring out the best in an individual and convert them, or its going to bring out the worst in an individual. People are going to be pushed in one direction(repentance) or the other(perish) by the ensuing troubles of those times.

Scripture also indicates it as a necessary cleansing process to destroy the wickedness of the earth and its unrepentant sinners.

Throughout Scripture, the great tribulation is likened to a pregnant woman going into labor. God had a reason for consistently using this metaphor. One of which makes plain the stupidity of holding to the idea that things are going to get better in the world in preparation for Christ's return. The other is that it perfectly reflects the model.
The process of childbirth in a woman functions on a positive feedback mechanism, just as blood clotting likewise does so.
To put it quick and simple in an analogy, Israel is to the woman in labor as oxytocin is to sin as troubles(war, famine, pestilence, etc.) is to labor pains.

Christ's return, the birth of His kingdom/reign, brings a completion to the process, just as the formation of the blood clot completes the process or the birth of the child completes labor. Otherwise, left unrestrained, mankind's sinfulness would effectively destroy the earth, just as an unending or out of control process of blood clotting would kill an individual.

 

[GUANO]

A great revolution will occur of the likes never seen before on earth. All the nations will fall and there will be no organized government anywhere. That's a pretty easy sign to watch for.

 

[Widlast]

OK, so in your opinion it will start after the third Temple has been erected?

That's what scripture says.

 

[Quasar92]

My question is not about the rapture. My question is about the onset of the great tribulation guys , and how will people know it has begun? Do you think there is a way to know it has begun?

As Paul wrote in 1 Thess.5:1: "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

IMO, I see no way people can live without being effected, as Jesus relayed to John in the following:

The Beast out of the Sea [The Antichrist]

Rev.13:1 "The dragon [Satan] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast [Antichrist] coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.b

9Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10“If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killedc with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”d
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

The Beast out of the Earth [The False Prophet]

11Then I saw a second beast [False Prophet], coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.e That number is 666." [Parenthetics mine


There are two more signs the Great Tribulation has come: 1. The Antichrist will stop the sacrificing in the temple, according to Dan.9:27. 2. The Antichrist will sit in the temple of God claiming he is God, according to 2 Thess.2:4.

Hope this helps.


Blessings


Quasar92]

 

[BABerean2]

The Antichrist will stop the sacrificing in the temple, according to Dan.9:27.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


Dr. Kelly Varner on Daniel chapter 9

 

[Quasar92]

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


Dr. Kelly Varner on Daniel chapter 9

What is it that "he" will do? The ANTICHRIST will "make a firm covenant with the many for one week," that is seven years. Non-literal interpreters of Daniel’s seventy-week prophecy usually attempt to make this covenant a reference to Christ’s covenant to save His people, usually known as the covenant of grace. "This, then, is a confirming of a covenant already extant, i.e., the covenant of God’s redemptive grace that Christ confirms (Rom. 15:8)," claims Dr. Gentry. Dr. Gentry and those advocating a similar view, must resort to a non-textual, theological interpretation at this point since there was no seven-year covenant made by Christ with the Jewish people at the time of His first coming. They must back off from the specifics of the text in verse 27 and import in a theological interpretation, thus providing us with a classic example of spiritualization or allegorical interpretation.[/font]

If this is supposed to be a reference to the covenant of grace, then "it may be observed first that this would be a strange way to express such a thought," notes Dr. Wood. Christ’s salvation covenant is not limited to seven years rather it is an eternal covenant. Daniel 9:27 says the covenant is to be made with "the many." This term always refers in some way to Israel throughout the book of Daniel (Daniel 11:33, 39; 12:3). Thus it is a narrow term, used in a specific context. It is not a broad term, synonymous with the language of global salvation. Further, "it is evident that the covenant is subsequent to the cutting off of Messiah and the destruction of the City and the Sanctuary, in the twenty-sixth verse; therefore, it could not have been confirmed at the First Advent," says G. H. Pember. Such an interpretation does not fit this text and it does not account for the seven years that Gabriel says this covenant will be in place. Dr. Wood further explains:[/font]

Since a covenant as described in verse 27 has not yet taken place in reference to the nation of Israel, it must therefore follow that this will be a yet to occur future event. This then, demands a postponement of the seventieth week with a gap of time between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks of years.[/font]

For One Week

This passage clearly says that the length of the covenant that "he" will make will be for one week or seven years. I suppose that this could mean either that the covenant will be predetermined to last seven years or that it does not specify a length of time when made, but as it turns out, is only in existence for seven years. Many of those who believe that the entire prophecy of the seventy weeks has already been fulfilled around the time of Christ’s first coming teach that the first half of the seventieth week was fulfilled by Christ’s ministry. "We know Christ’s three-and-one-half-year ministry," says Dr. Gentry, "was decidedly focused on the Jews in the first half of the seventieth week (Matt. 10:5b; cf. Matt. 15:24)." G. H. Pember objects to such a view with the following:[/font]

Conclusion

Once again we have seen in this installment on the seventy weeks that the text of this passage supports a gap of time between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. It is becoming increasingly obvious that the seventieth week is still future to the time in which we now live. "Israel has now been reestablished as a nation (1948), suggesting that the seventieth seven may soon begin." Maranatha!

By: Thomas Ice, PhD

From: http://www.raptureme.com/featured/70-weeks-9.html [Site has been moved]


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

This then, demands a postponement of the seventieth week with a gap of time between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks of years.

It is only modernist dispensational futurism after the 18th century that demands it. The other 1800 years of true Church history do not.

 

[Quasar92]

It is only modernist dispensational futurism after the 18th century that demands it. The other 1800 years of true Church history do not.

Would you care to tell me why the gap between Dan.9:26 and 27 is so unreasonable to you? When there was more than 300 OT prophecies, Jesus fulfilled in the NT. Here are a few of them:

They said He would be:

1. "Sold" for 30 pieces of silver [Zech.11:12; fulfilled in Mt.26:31-56].

2. Forsaken by His disciples [Zech.13:7; fulfilled in Mt.26:31-56].

3. Mocked [Ps.22:7-8; fulfilled in Mt.26:67-68; 27:31-44].

4. Spat on [Isa.50:6; fulfilled in Mt.26:67; 27:30 .

5. Beaten [Isa.50:6; fulfilled in Mt.26:67-68; 27:26-30 .

6. Executed without having a bone broken [Ex.12:46; Ps.34:20; fulfilled in Jn.19:33-36].

7. Thirsty during His execution [Ps.22:15; fulfilled in Jn.19:28].

8. Given vinegar to quench His thirst [Ps.69:21; fulfilled in Mt.27:34].

9. Considered a lawbreaker ["transgressor"] - [Isa.53:12; fulfilled in Mt.27:38].

10. "Cut off [executed], but not for Himself" 69 X 7 years after the command to rebuild Jerusalem [Dan.9:24-26; fulfilled in Rom.5:6 and 1 Pet.3:18].

11. Buried in a rich man's tomb [Isa.53:9; fulfilled in Mt.27:57-60.

12. Raised from the dead [Isa.53:9-10; fulfilled in Mt.28:1-20 .

The above prophecies were made between 500 to 1,500 years before Christ was born - and all of them were perfectly fulfilled and recorded in the New Testament.


Quasa92r

 

[Another Lazarus]

Tribulation will Biblically begin with fake PEACE
when the 1st seal is opened after a big ww3, and antichrist is launched to conquer the world by Peace Agreement with the power of the dragon

Dan 9:28 ... and by peace he shall destroy many...

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
a bow without arrows is a symbol of peace making.

 

[jgr]

Would you care to tell me why the gap between Dan.8:26 and 27 is so unreasonable to you? When there was more than 300 OT prophecies, Jesus fulfilled in the NT. Here are a few of them:

They said He would be:

1. "Sold" for 30 pieces of silver [Zech.11:12; fulfilled in Mt.26:31-56].

2. Forsaken by His disciples [Zech.13:7; fulfilled in Mt.26:31-56].

3. Mocked [Ps.22:7-8; fulfilled in Mt.26:67-68; 27:31-44].

4. Spat on [Isa.50:6; fulfilled in Mt.26:67; 27:30 .

5. Beaten [Isa.50:6; fulfilled in Mt.26:67-68; 27:26-30 .

6. Executed without having a bone broken [Ex.12:46; Ps.34:20; fulfilled in Jn.19:33-36].

7. Thirsty during His execution [Ps.22:15; fulfilled in Jn.19:28].

8. Given vinegar to quench His thirst [Ps.69:21; fulfilled in Mt.27:34].

9. Considered a lawbreaker ["transgressor"] - [Isa.53:12; fulfilled in Mt.27:38].

10. "Cut off [executed], but not for Himself" 69 X 7 years after the command to rebuild Jerusalem [Dan.9:24-26; fulfilled in Rom.5:6 and 1 Pet.3:18].

11. Buried in a rich man's tomb [Isa.53:9; fulfilled in Mt.27:57-60.

12. Raised from the dead [Isa.53:9-10; fulfilled in Mt.28:1-20 .

The above prophecies were made between 500 to 1,500 years before Christ was born - and all of them were perfectly fulfilled and recorded in the New Testament.


Quasa92r

I presume you mean Daniel 9:26-27.

All of your citations contain OT prophecies with indisputable NT fulfillments. They are prophetically inspiring.

Daniel 9:26 contains OT prophecies with indisputable NT fulfillments. It is prophetically inspiring.

Daniel 9:27, which immediately follows 9:26, and in normal perusal seems semantically and logically connected; contains OT prophecies. But suddenly, unlike its predecessor, it is claimed that it has no NT fulfillments. Being unfulfilled, it is devoid of prophetic inspiration.

Its unfulfillment is both unreasonable and untenable to me.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Regardless of what rapture view we all hold, I think most of us can agree that the last seven years before Lord Jesus returns will be the worst and most devastating years on Earth since the world began.

I just want to explore these questions.How will people know when this terrible period has begun?

Will people know that this period has begun?

Will people deny that this period has begun?

likewise what do you think will signal it if you hold another view?

I just wonder. What more has to happen?

But Lord Jesus did say watch and pray. Here is another question. Watch what?

My question is about the onset of the great tribulation guys , and how will people know it has begun? Do you think there is a way to know it has begun?

So, what will identify the apocalypse?

Excellent questions.

Best answer taken from the thread:

I noticed some are basing these things on seeing a literal 3rd temple sitting in Jerusalem, where someone sitting in it is proclaiming to be God.

And that some see the 2 witnesses in Rev 12 meaning two literal people. So on and so on.

But what if, as I tend to think, very little, if any of these things at all, are meant to be understood in the literal sense?

We could already be in the midst of these times right now, but that many would not even realize it because they are still waiting for these things to come to pass in a literal way.

Something to think about anyway.

We ARE already in the midst of these times right now,
but the people are not even realizing it.

 

[Quasar92]

I presume you mean Daniel 9:26-27.

All of your citations contain OT prophecies with indisputable NT fulfillments. They are prophetically inspiring.

Daniel 9:26 contains OT prophecies with indisputable NT fulfillments. It is prophetically inspiring.

Daniel 9:27, which immediately follows 9:26, and in normal perusal seems semantically and logically connected; contains OT prophecies. But suddenly, unlike its predecessor, it is claimed that it has no NT fulfillments. Being unfulfilled, it is devoid of prophetic inspiration.

Its unfulfillment is both unreasonable and untenable to me.

Yes, I did mean Dan.9:27, and apologize for the typo. I need a new pair of glases, actually, no pun intended.

I suggest you read Jesus Olivet Discourse, which is an ampliiction of Dan.9:27, as is Rev.6. You might also review 1 Cor.12, asPaul reveals the Holy Spirit will give ifts to those whom He will. Everyone is not given the gift og prophecy, for example, or for any of the other many gifts. But we all share in the gifts He has specifically given to each one of us with the others.


Quasar92

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

We ARE already in the midst of these times right now,
but the people are not even realizing it.

LOL! How do you know?