How/Why did the Catholic Church move from burning heretics to pachamama and social justice?

BobRyan

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WorldNetDaily - Wikipedia

WorldNetDaily (WND) is an American news and opinion website and online news aggregator which has been described as "fringe" and far right[6] as well as politically conservative.[7] The website is known for promoting falsehoods and conspiracy theories.[15]

But Pope Benedict is not "fringe". Facts in history do not change simply because someone does not like one or two.

References, dates, places compiled at this link for the 50 million number given as an estimate - are so vast that one would have to wave-the-hand all day long to wave them off in dismissal.
Number of Protestants Killed By Catholic Pope

Bottom line. Religious persecution in history "was real" not merely imagined by Pope Benedict or all those other historians listed in that link.
 
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Swag365

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But Pope Benedict is not "fringe". Facts in history do not change simply because someone does not like one or two.

References, dates, places compiled at this link for the 50 million number given as an estimate - are so vast that one would have to wave-the-hand all day long to wave them off in dismissal.
Number of Protestants Killed By Catholic Pope

Bottom line. Religious persecution in history "was real" not merely imagined by Pope Benedict or all those other historians listed in that link.
50 million? And there I had thought that the Pope had killed 100 million. Well, he's not nearly as bad as I thought.
 
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BobRyan

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50 million? And there I had thought that the Pope had killed 100 million. Well, he's not nearly as bad as I thought.

Your standards for killing other christians are pretty hard to beat I will grant you that :)

Even so - we are talking about actual historic fact regarding those persecutions and what the thinking was at the time vs now ... as per the OP. So not trying to debate your "100 million" ideas.
 
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Basil the Great

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Well, let me start by saying this. When it comes to a Protestant looking at Catholicism, I probably rank in the upper 10% on a sliding scale of Protestants who tend to view the Catholic faith favorably. I say this mostly because I like the Catholic emphasis upon works and believe that it is closer to Jesus' teachings in the Gospels about showing love and mercy, compared to Paul's emphasis upon faith. I also like the Catholic belief in an intermediate state after death, though I strongly disagree with the traditional Purgatory imagery of burning. I also like the practice of praying for the dead and think that Protestants "threw that baby out with the bathwater", just because of the indulgence abuses associated with Purgatory and praying for the dead. I also strongly favor the recent change in the Catholic teaching on the death penalty, though said change is opposed by many Traditional Catholics, who tend to believe that the recent change contradicts past Catholic teaching on the subject.

Having said all of the above, I take a back seat to no one on this website when it comes to a negative view of the Holy Office of the Inquisition, aka the Inquisition. I have studied this subject at considerable length. The last man executed during the Spanish Inquisition was a school teacher, Cayetano Ripoll, who was tried and convicted for teaching Deism to his students. He was put to death on July 26, 1826, which made him the last man or woman tried for heresy by a Church authority and put to death. Now the authorization of the use of torture began with Pope Innocent IV on May 15, 1252 and ended with Pope Pius VII in 1814. This means that a multitude of Catholic Popes authorized the use of torture, as part of the Holy Office of the Inquisition's effort to fight heresy, for 562 consecutive years. Now for anyone who considers torture to be totally inconsistent with Jesus' teachings in the Gospels, such poses an immense problem. Where was the Holy Spirit for these 562 years, who was to guide his Church into all truth? How is it possible that so many Popes, believed to be the Vicar of Christ of Earth, could approve of torture and for such a lengthy period of time? Yes, some will say that the practice of torture was never Church teaching, but an administrative practice. Well, for all the souls who were tortured, this is a distinction without a difference. Also, what about the sacraments? These Popes had the sacrament of Holy Orders. They heard confessions and went to confessions themselves. They also said Mass and received what they believed to be the body and blood of Christ, at least weekly, and many of them probably on a daily basis. What then are we to make of the value of the sacraments in helping Christians to live holy lives?

Now, as to the question posed by this thread, it would appear that the authorization of torture ended in 1814 and the last execution took place in 1826, as such practices became untenable to continue in a modern and more pluralistic society and keeping them alive would have hurt the Church's image in a massive way. Now I do not make such a statement without also acknowledging that more recent Popes have tried hard to move the Catholic Church into ways closer to that found in the Gospels, especially with an emphasis upon helping the poor, the homeless and the oppressed and reaching out to non-Catholic Christians, Jews, Muslims and others.

p.s. - Before some Protestants here try to feel totally free of the Inquisition's practices, let us not forget that thousands were accused of being witches, mostly women, and put to death in both Catholic and Protestant lands. We also must remember that the institution of slavery in the American South was mostly a Protestant practice, except in Catholic Louisiana, and that many slaves were tortured and more than a few put to death. How many Evangelical Protestant pastors spoke out against the evils of slavery and how many Catholic priests in Louisiana we might ask as well?
 
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JM

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I think that's a fair question, at least, why the move toward Social Justice and woke theology. The Catholic sources I use are Taylor Marshall and Church Militant.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=taylor+marshall+liberal+woke+pope

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=church+militant+liberal+woke+pope

“Rome herself admits, openly admits, that if she is not the very kingdom of Christ, she is that of Antichrist. Rome declares she is one or the other. She herself propounds and urges this solemn alternative. You shrink from it, do you? I accept it. Conscience constrains me. History compels me. The past, the awful past rises before me. I see the great apostasy, I see the desolation of Christendom, I see
the smoking ruins,

I see the reign of monsters;I see those vice-gods,

that Gregory VIII,

that Innocent III,

that Boniface VIII,

that Alexander VI,

that Gregory XIII,

that Pius IX;

I see their long succession, I see their abominable lives; I see them worshipped by blinded generations, bestowing hollow benedictions, bartering lying indulgences, creating a paganised Christianity; I see their liveried slaves, their shaven priests, their celibate confessors; I see the infamous confessional, the ruined women, the murdered innocents; I hear the lying absolutions, the dying groans; I hear the cries of the victims; I hear the anathemas, the curses, the thunders of the interdicts;

I see the racks, the dungeons, the stakes; I see that inhuman Inquisition, those fires of Smithfield, those butcheries of St. Bartholomew, that Spanish Armada, those unspeakable massacres. I see it all, and in the name of the ruin it has wrought in the Church and in the world, in the name of the truth it has denied, the temple it has defiled, the God it has blasphemed, the souls it has destroyed; in the name of the millions it has deluded, the millions it has slaughtered, the millions it has damned; with holy confessors, with noble reformers, with innumerable martyrs, with the saints of ages, I denounce it as the masterpiece of Satan as the body and soul and essence of Antichrist.” H. Grattan Guinness, Romanism and the Reformation


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Philip_B

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There is without doubt a change in what is considered acceptable practice and behavior. There was a time when it was considered that the slewing of heretics was a virtue, whereas today we would see that as a vice.

Following in the wake of the Reformation there happened in Europe a gradual awakening to the importance of the individual, and our thinking turned more from the idea of Christian Nations to Christian People. Whilst Henry VIII could have Margaret Pole executed without charge or trial, that is not something we would so easily accept today. Presidents and Monarchs these days have to settle for sacking people!

The reformation did not only affect the Reformation Churches, it also affected the Catholic (and perhaps to a lesser extent the Orthodox) Churches. For the Catholic Church that has been a long and slow road, and when you look at the Catholic Church in the Post Vatican II period and what the 16th Century Reformers were asking for, you see a much closer alignment.

I don't doubt that there have been a couple of raised that would please them less (Infallibility and Assumption), yet overall there has been a greater alignment in ideas and objectives than perhaps ever before, and I think it is worth recognising it as we serve the one who prayed that we all may be one.
 
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chevyontheriver

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JSRG

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But Pope Benedict is not "fringe". Facts in history do not change simply because someone does not like one or two.
But did Benedict actually make the claim attributed to him? So far the only source for this claim is World Net Daily, which is regarded as a fringe source, and the article quoted gives no citation or source for the declaration that he said the archives "indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church." So the only evidence offered that he made this claim of 25 million is an apparently fringe site that gives no proof!

References, dates, places compiled at this link for the 50 million number given as an estimate - are so vast that one would have to wave-the-hand all day long to wave them off in dismissal.
Number of Protestants Killed By Catholic Pope
First, that was not written by a guy with historical credentials, but rather a PhD in computer science. And looking at it, the sources offered for the numbers largely consist of non-historians, frequently with a bias against the Catholic Church, and most of the time from over a century ago and thus not up-to-date with historical scholarship.

I also did find a Catholic writer addressing that paper (as part of a larger article, though) here.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Inkfingers, post: 75389813, member: 353014"]I think that the question is fairly self-evident...

Does anyone have any answers to this (please, no out-right anti-Catholicism and the like, as I'm looking to see how the change occurred and not just to unleash a load of "POPERY!!!!!!" type comments)?

The church has always had a concern for social welfare, which these days has largely been taken over by the state, at least in Western democracies. I lifted the following passage from an Encyclopaedia Britannica site -

Christianity - Church and social welfare

It discusses other social concerns besides those of caring for the sick, if you want to read the whole article

Care for the sick
In The Gospel According to Matthew, Jesus says to his Apostles, when the Son of Man comes in majesty to render final judgment on all of humankind, he will say to the chosen ones at his right hand, “I was sick and you took care of me,” and to the condemned at his left hand, “I was…sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” When the condemned ask the Lord when they saw him sick and did not visit him, they will receive the answer, “Just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.”

In the early church, the care of the sick was carried out by the deacons and widows under the leadership of the bishop. This service was not limited to members of the Christian congregation but was directed toward the larger community, particularly in times of pestilence and plague. Eusebius noted in his Ecclesiastical History that while the heathen fled the plague at Alexandria, “most of our brother-Christians showed unbounded love and loyalty” in caring for and frequently dying with the victims.

Beginning in the 4th century, the monasteries created a new institution, the hospital, and continued to care for the sick throughout the Middle Ages. The growing number of pilgrims to the Holy Land and the necessity of care of their numerous sick, who had fallen victim to the unfamiliar conditions of climate and life, led to knightly hospital orders, the most important of which was the Hospitallers of St. John of Jerusalem (later called the Knights of Malta), founded in the 11th century. The service for the sick, which was carried out by the knights alongside their military service for the protection of the pilgrims, was not elaborate.

In connection with the orders of mendicant friars, especially the Franciscans, civil hospital orders were formed. Even the hospital in Marburg, which was founded by St. Elizabeth of Hungary (1207–31) on the territory of the knights of the Teutonic Order, was influenced by the spirit of St. Francis. Other hospitals were founded as autonomous institutions under the leadership or supervision of a bishop. The centralization of the different existing institutions became necessary with the growth of cities and was most frequently undertaken by city councils. The laity began to take over, but the spiritual and pastoral care of the patients remained a major concern.

In Protestant lands during the Reformation, medieval nursing institutions were adapted to new conditions. The church constitutions in the different territories of the Reformation stressed the duty of caring for the sick and gave suggestions for its adequate realization. The office of the deacon was supplemented by that of the deaconess. The Counter-Reformation brought a new impulse for caring for the sick in the Roman Catholic Church, insofar as special orders for nursing service were founded—e.g., the Daughters of Charity, a non-enclosed congregation of women devoted to the care of the sick and the poor, founded by St. Vincent de Paul, a notable charismatic healer. A great number of new orders came into existence and spread the spirit and institutions of ecclesiastical nursing care throughout the world as part of Roman Catholic world missions.

As for burning heretics, this was usually carried out by political powers. The Inquisition for example was most active in Spain. However "according to Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome and curator of the 783-page volume released yesterday, only 1% of the 125,000 people tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain were executed." That's 1250 people over 200 years, which averages out at about 6 per year.

Historians say Inquisition wasn't that bad.

Henry VIII, the once "Champion of the Faith" was responsible for hundreds if not thousands of deaths in a much shorter time frame, after he became began the Reformation in England.

The killer king: How many people did Henry VIII execute?

To answer this question properly, you'd need to have a thorough knowledge of European and Church history, and also an understanding of how men and women thought back in the middle ages, and the Reformation years.

Joan of Arc's burning at the stake for example was at least as much political as religious. She was a real military thorn in the side of the British and she was in their hands when the judgement was passed.

It's not a question for which there is a quick and easy answer.
 
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DamianWarS

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I think that the question is fairly self-evident...

Does anyone have any answers to this (please, no out-right anti-Catholicism and the like, as I'm looking to see how the change occurred and not just to unleash a load of "POPERY!!!!!!" type comments)?
three words: the printing press
 
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Lost4words

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Through many a rough storm and turbulent seas, the Catholic church still stands.

The devil has tried, and keeps trying to sink her. He has won many battles but he will never ever win the war. Just like Jesus said, the gates of hell will not prevail against His church.
 
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Pathfinder627

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Through many a rough storm and turbulent seas, the Catholic church still stands.

The devil has tried, and keeps trying to sink her. He has won many battles but he will never ever win the war. Just like Jesus said, the gates of hell will not prevail against His church.

You act like these are external attacks. They're not. Everything from mafioso style Borgia and Medici popes, killing your own Templar champions, burning people alive for mundane scientific assertions, and protecting pedophiles are self-inflicted wounds - done with approval at the highest level.

I love day to day Catholics. I do not hesitate to consider them brothers. The power structure, on the other hand, doesn't exactly breed confidence. And it's low level Catholics themselves who are the victims most of the time. It's not me getting hurt by any of it. It's Catholics. And the only really reason why it's slow to change are because regular people have no say so. Not divine mandate. It's because there are no checks and balances.
 
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Hmm

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I love day to day Catholics. I do not hesitate to consider them brothers. The power structure, on the other hand, doesn't exactly breed confidence. And it's low level Catholics themselves who are the victims most of the time. It's not me getting hurt by any of it. It's Catholics.

I agree. There are good Catholics and bad Catholic just as with any other denomination but the RCC's claim to infallibility inevitably leads to a lot of unhealthy guilt in actual people's lives. It can make people afraid to trust their own moral judgment and so they submit to an external source that they don't really understand which leaves them constantly wondering if they have done anything wrong. It is very destructive. The RCC has hoisted itself by its own petard through adopting it's stance on infallibility because it can't change its mind on this without admitting it got it wrong which logically it can't do. Abuse goes on in all churches obviously but at least there's hope for churches that are able to repent.
 
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Lost4words

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You act like these are external attacks. They're not. Everything from mafioso style Borgia and Medici popes, killing your own Templar champions, burning people alive for mundane scientific assertions, and protecting pedophiles are self-inflicted wounds - done with approval at the highest level.

I love day to day Catholics. I do not hesitate to consider them brothers. The power structure, on the other hand, doesn't exactly breed confidence. And it's low level Catholics themselves who are the victims most of the time. It's not me getting hurt by any of it. It's Catholics. And the only really reason why it's slow to change are because regular people have no say so. Not divine mandate. It's because there are no checks and balances.

Internal and external
 
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Pathfinder627

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Internal and external

Some things perceived as external attacks are just people wanting to go their own way. The bulk of the Reformation was such. But secularism indeed does attack Christianity - Catholicism included. We're all in that together. I'm glad we've created a united front on abortion especially.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I think that the question is fairly self-evident...

Does anyone have any answers to this (please, no out-right anti-Catholicism and the like, as I'm looking to see how the change occurred and not just to unleash a load of "POPERY!!!!!!" type comments)?
What changed was the acceptance of new ideas formerly known as heretical. Be blessed.
 
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BobRyan

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References, dates, places compiled at this link for the 50 million number given as an estimate - are so vast that one would have to wave-the-hand all day long to wave them off in dismissal.
Number of Protestants Killed By Catholic Pope

First, that was not written by a guy with historical credentials, but rather a PhD ...

The point was to see the references to Wesley, Albert Barnes and many others -- books, pages, references.

When you quote someone here - we are getting it "from you" but cannot delete each reference you give simply because you yourself are not a world class theologian - you only quote or reference them.

Your practice of discounting all these world-class references "because the person pointing them out" is not also a world class author - is not at all compelling in this regard.
 
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chad kincham

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On the one hand, we have a pope who recognizes that command from God, and calls to everyone to come and join the Church just as they are, with no guidance and no exclusions.

On the other hand, you have a pope who, abhorring the sin found within the Church, follows the example of Jesus when He cleared the moneychangers out of the Temple, and purified it.

Mmmm... let me check...

Nope, Jesus didn’t burn anyone to death, nor execute them - not when clearing out the temple, or anywhere else.
 
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ViaCrucis

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While tacit approval was given by church leadership, I'm not aware of an example of the Church doing any burning of heretics, this was always an action taken by the State. The State burned heretics, but again this was often with approval from the Church, whether explicitly or implicitly.

The reason why Christians today understand that burning heretics is wrong is because, well, it's wrong. Religious persecution is a bad thing. Obviously so.

Christ's Church must be Christ's Church; Caesar may wield the sword, that does not mean that the Church must kiss Caesar's heel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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