How were people before the time of Jesus saved?

☦Marius☦

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If God didn’t save anyone before Jesus then that would make him unjust. If the law didn’t save even temporarily then there was no point in it. Baptism replaces circumcision as a sign of the New Covenant while circumcision was of the Old Covenant. The law was sent to guide the Israelites for a specific time, the Old Testament specifically talks about keeping the law at many points.

It wouldn't make him unjust. He decended into Hades to free those shut up. Look at the icon of the resurrection. What is he doing? Pulling Adam and Eve out of Hades. There was pleanty of point to the old covenant, that wasn't salvation. Such as making the Jews ritually pure and showing the nature of sin and establishing the line for the Messiah.
 
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☦Marius☦

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If God didn’t save anyone before Jesus then that would make him unjust. If the law didn’t save even temporarily then there was no point in it. Baptism replaces circumcision as a sign of the New Covenant while circumcision was of the Old Covenant. The law was sent to guide the Israelites for a specific time, the Old Testament specifically talks about keeping the law at many points.

And I'm not just spouting off my own opinion. This is the clear patristic view on the subject. It's what the Orthodox Church teaches.
 
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justbyfaith

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Abraham was certainly saved through faith in the Lord (Genesis 15:6).

Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy of the coming Messiah. That verse is called by theologians the proto-evangelion of scripture.
 
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zoidar

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Yes Z.
To them the "Great Spirit" was God.
What do you think about Romans 1:19?
Faith in God saves us.

I hope you are right! But isn't faith about knowing God, not just believing in God? Else we got saved Muslims, saved Buddhists, Hindus, people who may believe in God without knowing God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I hope you are right! But isn't faith about knowing God, not just believing in God? Else we got saved Muslims, saved Buddhists, Hindus, people who may believe in God without knowing God.
If someone (the Indian) is speaking to God, then surely he must know Him as best he can.

As you well know, there are two types of believing.
One can believe with the mind...
One can believe the way the bible states, with our whole mind, heart, and soul.

One knows there is a God but does not communicate with Him...
The other communicates with the God he believes in.

Humankind has always known there was a superior power. Some communicated with that power, and some didn't.

Only when one DENIES Jesus, can we say that their salvation is in peril --- Not everyone around the world knows about Jesus, nor in the past times.
 
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Barney2.0

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It wouldn't make him unjust. He decended into Hades to free those shut up. Look at the icon of the resurrection. What is he doing? Pulling Adam and Eve out of Hades. There was pleanty of point to the old covenant, that wasn't salvation. Such as making the Jews ritually pure and showing the nature of sin and establishing the line for the Messiah.
So all the prophets are in Hades and the real Adam and Eve are also in Hades, the law itself doesn’t save, God saves those out of virtue of obedience to the law he sent down, I never said the law itself saves, the law was sent down to guide man from sin and expose their sin until the Messiah could effectively come to wipe sin away. All those who acknowledged their sin under the law were granted mercy by the righteousness of God, while the law itself doesn’t save.
 
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Barney2.0

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And I'm not just spouting off my own opinion. This is the clear patristic view on the subject. It's what the Orthodox Church teaches.
The Orthodox Church has no explicit teachings as Protestantism does regarding the Law.
 
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☦Marius☦

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So all the prophets are in Hades and the real Adam and Eve are also in Hades, the law itself doesn’t save, God saves those out of virtue of obedience to the law he sent down, I never said the law itself saves, the law was sent down to guide man from sin and expose their sin until the Messiah could effectively come to wipe sin away. All those who acknowledged their sin under the law were granted mercy by the righteousness of God, while the law itself doesn’t save.

The Orthodox Church has no explicit teachings as Protestantism does regarding the Law.

They aren't because Christ went down to bring Adam and Eve out of Hades. What are you talking about that the Orthodox Church has no teachings regarding the law? What utter nonsense! You really think the fathers didn't write about something that important? You can't just take your own opinion and say it's the church's. The fathers literally teach that even the blessed St. John the Forerunner wasn't just the forerunner to Christ in this world, but also was the forerunner to Christ in Hades. He pronounced the coming messiah even to those in Sheol.
 
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GodsGrace101

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They aren't because Christ went down to bring Adam and Eve out of Hades. What are you talking about that the Orthodox Church has no teachings regarding the law? What utter nonsense! You really think the fathers didn't write about something that important? You can't just take your own opinion and say it's the church's. The fathers literally teach that even the blessed St. John the Forerunner wasn't just the forerunner to Christ in this world, but also was the forerunner to Christ in Hades. He pronounced the coming messiah even to those in Sheol.
Who is John the Forerunner?

The law was given for different reasons.
One was to establish civility in a community that had lived almost 400 years in slavery and had forgotten what it takes to create a society. Love of God and love of man are demonstrated in the 10 Commandments so as to have a civil society.

Law also shows us that we sin and are also transgressors of the law. Before the law there could be no transgression...after the law there was transgression. There is no transgression without law.
Romans 4:15
Before the law men sinned because they did not follow God's Natural Law which is for all humanity. Even atheists believe in a Natural Law.

Men were always saved by faith and by obeying God. Before the resurrection the saved went to Hades in Abraham's Bossom and were in comfort. The others went into the place of torment, call it what you may -- hell or tartarus.
Luke 16

There they comforted ones waited for the resurrection and their freedom to go to heaven. This happened when the veil was torn open and Jesus liberated the ones waiting for Him in Hades.
Mathew 27:51
 
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Barney2.0

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They aren't because Christ went down to bring Adam and Eve out of Hades. What are you talking about that the Orthodox Church has no teachings regarding the law? What utter nonsense! You really think the fathers didn't write about something that important? You can't just take your own opinion and say it's the church's. The fathers literally teach that even the blessed St. John the Forerunner wasn't just the forerunner to Christ in this world, but also was the forerunner to Christ in Hades. He pronounced the coming messiah even to those in Sheol.
St. John the Baptist the forerunner taught that Christ came to bring an everlasting covenant to both Jews and Gentiles and fulfill the true purpose of the Old Covenant. I didn't say the Orthodox Church has no teachings regarding the law, I said they have no explicit teachings on the subject if the law. Keeping of the law was required under the threat of a curse which shows the law did at one point save, but at great cost. While the son of man saves without sacrifice because he is the only sacrifice.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Who is John the Forerunner?

The law was given for different reasons.
One was to establish civility in a community that had lived almost 400 years in slavery and had forgotten what it takes to create a society. Love of God and love of man are demonstrated in the 10 Commandments so as to have a civil society.

Law also shows us that we sin and are also transgressors of the law. Before the law there could be no transgression...after the law there was transgression. There is no transgression without law.
Romans 4:15
Before the law men sinned because they did not follow God's Natural Law which is for all humanity. Even atheists believe in a Natural Law.

Men were always saved by faith and by obeying God. Before the resurrection the saved went to Hades in Abraham's Bossom and were in comfort. The others went into the place of torment, call it what you may -- hell or tartarus.
Luke 16

There they comforted ones waited for the resurrection and their freedom to go to heaven. This happened when the veil was torn open and Jesus liberated the ones waiting for Him in Hades.
Mathew 27:51

St. John the Baptist.
 
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☦Marius☦

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St. John the Baptist the forerunner and taught that Christ came to bring an everlasting covenant to both Jews and Gentiles and fulfill the true purpose of the Covenant. I didn't say the Orthodox Church has no teachings regarding the law, I said they have no explicit teachings on the subject if the law. Keeping of the law was required under the threat of a curse which shows the law did at one point save, but at great cost. While the son of man saves without sacrifice a r is the only sacrifice.

You've changed what you originally said so many times I have no idea what you actually believe now.
 
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ewq1938

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How were people before the time of Jesus saved?

Jesus said obeying the law is the way to receive eternal life under the old covenant.


Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 
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bcbsr

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I have heard it be said that the people before the time of Jesus were saved by faith in the saviour who was to come, but I don't know.

Did someone like Abel knew to trust in the saviour to come? Did the OT-people knew to trust in the saviour for salvation? Is there even one verse in the OT that says that salvation comes from trusting in a future saviour? Aren't OT more about keeping the Laws and following God?

I know there are a lot of prophecies in the OT about Jesus, still did the people understand these prophecies? Didn't even the Jews believe that Christ was going to be an earthly ruler?
Paul uses Abraham as an example of saving faith in Romans 4. Thus justification was always by faith apart from works. In Abraham's case God gave him a promise and Abraham believed the promise and was justified."

Rom 4:1-3
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

And Paul goes on in Romans 4 to say likewise of David, both being OT characters. So there you go.
 
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bcbsr

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Before Jesus, any Jew who followed the law of Moses was saved and any Gentile who followed the law of Noah was saved.
But no one ever followed the Law.

Gal 3:
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them.


Furthermore in Romans 4 Paul points to Abraham and David as men justified by faith apart from the law.
 
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zoidar

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Paul uses Abraham as an example of saving faith in Romans 4. Thus justification was always by faith apart from works. In Abraham's case God gave him a promise and Abraham believed the promise and was justified."

Rom 4:1-3
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

And Paul goes on in Romans 4 to say likewise of David, both being OT characters. So there you go.

Ok, but by faith in what were people like Abel and Noah justified?

Noah, didn't only believe that God would send a flood, he acted on his belief, and so did also Abraham. God chose Abraham because Abraham obeyed him.

"Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, 'By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.'"(Gen 22:15-18)

"I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." (Gen 26:4-5)
 
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bcbsr

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Ok, but by faith in what were people like Abel and Noah justified?

Noah, didn't only believe that God would send a flood, he acted on his belief, and so did also Abraham. God chose Abraham because Abraham obeyed him.

"Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, 'By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.'"(Gen 22:15-18)

"I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." (Gen 26:4-5)
Notice your references come from Gen 22 and 26. Yet Paul declares that Abraham was already justified in Gen 15:6 and that apart from works.

Rom 4:2,3 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (Gen 15:6)
 
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Karola

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Jesus said obeying the law is the way to receive eternal life under the old covenant.


Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
In which case, they were all in trouble:

Do not bring your servant into judgement, for no one living is righteous before you Psalms143:2
 
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