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Featured How was Jesus Christ justified?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Jul 8, 2017.

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  1. Haipule

    Haipule Well-Known Member

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    dikE and dikaiosunE meant right and righteousness as they where a society and NOT on trial.
     
  2. -V-

    -V- Well-Known Member

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    Quoting it is one thing. Giving it meaning it doesn't actually say is quite another.

    I don't see anything about Jesus becoming justified there.
     
  3. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Jesus showed great faith:

    And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross.
    Phi. 2:8

    And that is why:

    Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
    Phi. 2:9
     
  4. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Who is Jesus?
    What does it mean to follow him?
     
  5. Haipule

    Haipule Well-Known Member

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    Well, thank you for quoting one of the most difficult passages of Scripture to translated from Greek into English!

    I'll just stick with Romans 5:17:

    For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:17 NASB

    In this verse we have a series of genitives you can identify by the word "of". To translate that is as difficult as the predicate nominative--which one is the subject, and which one is the predicate?

    However, it is easy to determine by the Greek word order and the definite article(s), or not(no article--anarthrous). The conjunction kai: "and-also" is also important. This is the case here. The genitive case establishes a relationship usually of possession or source. Which is why we have to add the English word "of"--"of-this", "of-that".

    These genitives are all articular with the definite article--"thee', "the".

    So we have in the Greek: ...abundance of-thee grace(favor implying joy) and-also of-thee gift of-thee righteousness ones-keep-on-taking(NOT receiving)

    In this phraseology, "favor" and "gift" are the possession and "righteousness" is the source.

    So here, "righteousness" is not "the gift" but the source of the gift and favor that we might reign in life.

    Therefore, righteousness is NOT a judicial act! Righteousness means: to do the right thing, in the right way. It is a noun of action.

    A noun of action is like the "Golf Swing". To swing the club is a verb. To teach someone, from address to follow through, is to teach "the swing", which is a noun of action.

    Another noun of action in Scripture is faith--"we walk by faith(noun of action)".

    So, God declares to us that to function in faith(noun of action) is Equated(NOT imputed) as righteousness--doing the right thing, in the right way(noun of action).
     
  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    But how do you know this?

    Again, how do you know this?
     
  7. doctorwho29

    doctorwho29 Well-Known Member

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    He was justified by being God
     
  8. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!

    How could righteousness justify righteousness?
    It makes no sense, therefore the question asked in regards to...

    how Jesus was justified?

    Is an illogical statement.

    The question in itself is an invalid argument, that is, the conclusion of justification does not apply to the subject in question.

    You said correctly, that is, Jesus is God. So how does God justify God, for the purposes of the argument, hence the argument in itself, is preposterous to ask in the first place.
     
  9. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Exactly. From what high point does Coulter sit that he knows things the entire Church has missed for 2,000 years?
     
  10. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    One need to be justified if they are not justified... Jesus justifys us by His atonment we need to be justified by Him because we cannot justify ourselves..

    Since Jesus is without fault he does not need anyone to justify Him..
     
  11. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Jesus preached the kingdom of God and showed us what it is like.
    When God is recognised and honoured as king - given first place and people acknowledge that there is no other god besides him - then people are forgiven, receive healing and are made whole. Demons are driven out, the deaf hear and blind see, and sinners are brought to repentance and receive reconciliation with God and eternal life.

    How does someone enter the kingdom of God?
    By being born again, John 3:3.
    By receiving eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:40.

    How is someone born again, able to come to God, receive eternal life, be born again and one of God's children?
    Through the cross, Romans 5:6-8, Romans 5:10, 2 Corinthians 5:20, Ephesians 1:7, John 14:6.
    When we have been forgiven and reconciled to God, we can receive his Spirit. We also become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, and receive assurance that we are God's children, Romans 8:16. When God is our Father we will love him, want to put him first, acknowledge him as our king, serve him and do his will and work.
    There is no contradiction. The kingdom of God does not exist where God is not honoured, and served, as king.


    That verse answers your question; the Gospel was revealed to him by Jesus. He met the Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus and was converted from a Christ hating Jew, to someone who preached Christ as Lord and died for his beliefs.


    ?? Paul wrote Galatians to people who were saying that he wasn't a true apostle; that he had just copied the 12 and got his teaching second hand, from other people.
    So he is keen to show that he didn't; it was a revelation from God and he spent time, on his own, working through his beliefs before meeting the 12.
    What's your point?
     
  12. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    How have you arrived at these ideas?
     
  13. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Jesus said that His gospel would repulse many.
     
  14. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,"
     
  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    That's not what Jesus preached and was rejected.

    That makes it sound as though Jesus failed in some way; that his mission didn't go to plan, and that he got himself put to death.
    His death was always part of the plan:
    Matthew 1:21, the angel told Joseph that his child should have the name Jesus, because he would save people from their sins.
    Luke 2:30, Simeon described Jesus as God's salvation.
    Luke 19:10, Jesus said that he had come to seek and save the lost.
    Mark 10:45, Jesus said that he had come to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.
    John 1:29, John the baptist said that Jesus would take away the sins of the world.
    John 12:27, Jesus predicted his death and said that this was why he had come.
    1 Peter 1:19-20, Peter calls Jesus the spotless Lamb, chosen from the foundation of the world.

    No; see the verses above.
    In addition to this, and what Jesus himself said; his death was prophesied in Genesis 3, Isaiah 53, and by the prophets.

    So you are rejecting Paul then?
    How do you know what he assumed?
     
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    The thing is, that if you reject Paul, you are saying the Bible is unreliable; as he wrote a lot of the NT. So if you believe Scripture to be unreliable, how can we accept it when you tell us that something is in Scripture?

    Either Scripture's reliable, inspired and true, or it isn't; you can't say, "that is true and from God, but that bit isn't." That would leave it up to us to decide which bits we were going to accept.
     
  17. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes. What did he save us from, and how did/does he do that?

    The Gospel is that the Kingdom of God is at hand, Mark 1:15 - and to enter that kingdom, you must be born again, John 3:3.
    The Gospel is that everyone who receives Jesus and believes in his name has the right to become a child of God, John 1:12.
    The Gospel is John 3:16.

    So what do the words;
    "the Son of Man came .... to give his life as a ransom for many", Mark 10:45
    " I lay down my life for the sheep", John 10:15
    this is my body, given for you ...... this is my blood, shed for the forgiveness of sins", Matthew 26:28
    mean to you?

    Why did the apostle John say; "THIS is love; Christ Jesus died for sinners"?, 1 John 3:16, and the apostle Peter say, "you were redeemed ...... by the precious blood of Christ"? 1 Peter 1:19. Why did the author of Hebrews say that Christ's sacrifice was once for all, Hebrews 10:10? Why did the author of Revelation talk about the blood of the Lamb, and of a Lamb, looking as though it had been slain? Revelation 7:14, 5:6.

    No, in the OT, Israelites were not forgiven unless they offered a sacrifice to atone for their sins. Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, Hebrews 9:22.
    The early church stopped offering animal sacrifices for sin after Jesus' death and resurrection - and preached the cross instead.

    He didn't resurrect himself, GOD raised him - thus proving that he was who he had said that he was, and all his claims were true, Acts of the Apostles 2:22-24; Romans 1:4 (Peter made the first statement.)

    As do you; how do you know that yours is correct?
     
  18. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Depends on whether you believe the book is from, about and inspired by God, or JUST a man made document. If the latter, then how can we believe anything it tells us - like that the words and deeds of Jesus were true?

    Jesus taught about the cross, about his death, about laying down his life for his sheep, about a grain of wheat falling in the ground and dying; but you don't seem to want to accept it.
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    If you are deriving the gospel of the Kingdom from the Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then I assume you take all truths from those gospel accounts? That's a question as I don't know what your canon looks like.

    Assuming you accept the 4 Gospel accounts as truth, your argument falls as Jesus tells His apostles the following:

    Jesus predicts His death and resurrection and also teaches such from parables:

    Matthew 16:21

    From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed , and be raised again the third day.

    Matthew 17:9

    And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead .

    Matthew 17:22-23

    [17:22] And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: [17:23] And they shall kill him , and the third day he shall be raised again . And they were exceeding sorry.

    Matthew 20:18-19

    [20:18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, [20:19] And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him : and the third day he shall rise again .

    Matthew 21:38

    But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him , and let us seize on his inheritance.

    Matthew 26:2

    Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

    Matthew 26:31-32

    [26:31] Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd , and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. [26:32] But after I am risen again , I will go before you into Galilee.

    Mark 8:31

    And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again .

    Mark 9:9

    And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead .

    Mark 9:31

    For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him ; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

    Mark 10:33-34

    [10:33] Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: [10:34] And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him : and the third day he shall rise again .

    Mark 12:7-8

    [12:7] But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him , and the inheritance shall be our's. [12:8] And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

    Mark 14:8

    She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying .

    Mark 14:27-28

    [14:27] And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd , and the sheep shall be scattered. [14:28] But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.

    Mark 14:41

    And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

    Luke 9:22

    Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day .

    Luke 9:44

    Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men .

    Luke 18:31-33

    [18:31] Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. [18:32] For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: [18:33] And they shall scourge him, and put him to death : and the third day he shall rise again .

    Luke 20:14-15

    [20:13] Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son : it may be they will reverence him when they see him. [20:14] But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him , that the inheritance may be ours. [20:15] So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

    Luke 24:6-7

    [24:6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, [24:7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again .

    John 3:14

    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up :

    John 8:28

    Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man , then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    John 10:17-18

    [10:17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life , that I might take it again . [10:18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself . I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again . This commandment have I received of my Father.

    John 12:7,:23-24, 32-34

    [12:7] Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. [12:23] And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. [12:24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [12:32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. [12:33] This he said, signifying what death he should die. [12:34] The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up ? who is this Son of man?

    Jesus commands the apostles to preach His death and resurrection and repentance in His name:

    Luke 24:
    44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

    46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

    Then Jesus makes it clear how the remission is based on his shed blood:

    Matthew 26:

    27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Therefore, the apostles preached the correct Gospel. We see this in 1 Corinthians 15:

    1 Corinthians 15:
    Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

    9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

    Extract Luke 24:
    -“These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

    -“Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    Extract 1 Corinthians 15:

    -For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures...

    Both extracts above from Jesus and from Paul mention "according to the Scriptures."

    Here's the clincher of what Jesus and Paul speak of:

    Isaiah 53:

    Who has believed our report?
    And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
    And as a root out of dry ground.
    He has no form or comeliness;
    And when we see Him,

    There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
    3 He is despised and rejected by men,
    A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
    And we hid, as it were,
    our faces from Him;
    He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.



    4 Surely He has borne our griefs
    And carried our sorrows;
    Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
    Smitten by God, and afflicted.
    5 But He
    was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace
    was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, every one, to his own way;
    And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.


    7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He opened not His mouth;
    He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
    And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,

    So He opened not His mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
    And who will declare His generation?
    For He was cut off from the land of the living;
    For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

    9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
    But with the rich at His death,
    Because He had done no violence,
    Nor
    was any deceit in His mouth.

    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
    He has put
    Him to grief.
    When You make His soul an offering for sin,

    He shall see
    His seed, He shall prolong His days,
    And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
    11 He shall see the labor of His soul,
    and be satisfied.
    By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
    For He shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
    And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    Because He poured out His soul unto death,
    And He was numbered with the transgressors,
    And He bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the transgressors.


    I think that explains how the apostles were preaching the correct Gospel. The Gospel Jesus told them to preach (Luke 24).
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Yet what authority do you claim to confirm your view? If the Bible is just a collection of human writings with no inspiration, what do you point to as the authority for your claims.

    Last I checked there was only one claim, no two, to conditional supreme infallibility. The Pope and "The Mormon First Presidency."
     
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