How to shut down a JW 101

[justbyfaith]

Jehovah's Witnesses is listed as a cult in the classic book by Walter Martin (director of CRI in his day), "The Kingdom of the Cults".

Therefore they are not considered to be a denomination by mainstream Christianity, but a cult.

Because they deny the Deity of Christ, which is an essential for salvation; and they also seek to proclaim that view to others.

They have a different Jesus and a different gospel than what the Bible teaches (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, Galatians 1:6-9).

 

[Zoii]

Jehovah's Witnesses is listed as a cult in the classic book by Walter Martin (director of CRI in his day), "The Kingdom of the Cults".

Therefore they are not considered to be a denomination by mainstream Christianity, but a cult.

Because they deny the Deity of Christ, which is an essential for salvation; and they also seek to proclaim that view to others.

They have a different Jesus and a different gospel than what the Bible teaches (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, Galatians 1:6-9).

Cult simply means a religious group that isn't mainstream.
As for denying JC. I acknowledge in that regard they are closer to the Jewish religion.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

wow - so dismissive because she held to a different religious view - its as if she meant nothing to you because of a differing view of religion - in fact you call her nutty. What a sad and conceited state Christianity has arrived at when we believe our understanding of God is a privileged view and everyone else is wrong.

Christianity is divisive, not an endorsement of harsh tactics though.

Matthew 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Indeed they are against Jesus without ever knowing it. They have been craftily decieved.

The problem with doctrines is that they add words to what scripture says. Are JW's going to hell because they have errors in their doctrine of the Trinity? I say there are already people in heaven that had no understanding of the Trinity, so I can't judge them.

Scripture says the antichrist is one that denies Jesus is the Christ. I don't believe they profess so. They may have a less exalted view of the Son of God than is. I say many with their confession of the Athanasian Creed have an overstated view of the Son of God. Does that mean either are going to hell?

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7​

I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

[gordonhooker]

I don't see any love in trying to put down anyone...

 

[GodsGrace101]

The problem with doctrines is that they add words to what scripture says. Are JW's going to hell because they have errors in their doctrine of the Trinity? I say there are already people in heaven that had no understanding of the Trinity, so I can't judge them.

Scripture says the antichrist is one that denies Jesus is the Christ. I don't believe they profess so. They may have a less exalted view of the Son of God than is. I say many with their confession of the Athanasian Creed have an overstated view of the Son of God. Does that mean either are going to hell?

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7​

I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

I agree with you, but none of the three verses you've posted would be convincing to them because they'd say that all three are correct.

They believe Jesus is the SON OF GOD...not God Himself, but that He shares in the essence of God since He is the son.

It used to be easier to talk to them when they'd say Jesus was a prophet, but now it's become more difficult. I do talk to them though; I always tell them that they could try to convert me and I could try to convert them.

I do tell them that by Christianity's standards, they are NOT Christian since they don't believe in Jesus as God.

I leave the judging to the Almighty.

What I'd love to understand, living in Italy, is why an Italian Catholic would rather convert to the JW instead of Protestantism. This is a mystery to me.

 

[Valetic]

Are JW's going to hell because they have errors in their doctrine of the Trinity?

My aunt just woke up and got saved 2 years ago after being a JW for 40+ years. I believe if they don't come to the truth of Jesus, they will indeed remain unsaved til they perish.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

My aunt just woke up and got saved 2 years ago after being a JW for 40+ years. I believe if they don't come to the truth of Jesus, they will indeed remain unsaved til they perish.

Does your aunt think that the JW are not saved?
Has her life changed since she left the JW?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I agree with you, but none of the three verses you've posted would be convincing to them because they'd say that all three are correct.

They believe Jesus is the SON OF GOD...not God Himself, but that He shares in the essence of God since He is the son.

It used to be easier to talk to them when they'd say Jesus was a prophet, but now it's become more difficult.

The scripture I quoted was to point out to those that think the JW are not Christian, that according to scripture, they are at least not of the antichrist. We all admit that the Trinity is hard to comprehend. Scripture is allusive to their uniqueness. They are not exactly the same as the Athanasian Creed wants to convince.

Most Christians teach a supremacy of Christ.
The JW's teach a supremacy of the Father.
Now this is a simplification, but if you just listened to what each stresses, that would be the message you got. If the persons are not equal, I'll put the Father above. Will they go to hell because they don't think the Son eternal? They still believe him their Savor so I don't judge, but I an no expert in their doctrine. But, I don't think heaven requires one to be an expert in doctrine. John 3:16 is a very simple doctrine. Do what the JW believe count? I can't say for sure, but lean to yes.

I do tell them that by Christianity's standards, they are NOT Christian since they don't believe in Jesus as God.

I leave the judging to the Almighty.

It appears that you judge them to not be Christian.

What I'd love to understand, living in Italy, is why an Italian Catholic would rather convert to the JW instead of Protestantism. This is a mystery to me.

The JW and Catholics both stress works based salvation. Protestants stress God's grace, so not a mystery to me.

 

[Valetic]

Does your aunt think that the JW are not saved?
Has her life changed since she left the JW?

It's obvious they are not. Yes it has, traumatically.

 

[Valetic]

Do what the JW believe count? I can't say for sure, but lean to yes.

No, Jesus is a created being. They don't understand what it means to walk in fellowship or relationship with God. They do not understand how God conceived himself inside of a virgin and became flesh. They believe Jesus is a little god which contradicts what God says of himself when He says "I am the LORD. Beside me there is no other."

What is repentance then if you do not look at God? If God is not your conviction how can you truly repent of your sin and be sorry for breaking His heart? How can you then tell your God you do not want him to leave your side because of what you've done, that you are sorry for it, and that you want to remain with him?

They feel this way towards the organization instead of God. And it is out of fear of being disfellowshipped, shunned, and being left out of God's eternal paradise on earth after Armageddon.

 

[1213]

Indeed they are against Jesus without ever knowing it.

Please explain how?

 

[Valetic]

Please explain how?

Jesus said He came to give us life and to give us life in the abundance. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Jehovah's witnesses reject the diety of Jesus and deny that he should be worshiped.

They are spreading a false gospel of this Jesus that bled and died on a cross, rewrote the bible to fit their modalism, and said that only 144000 are going to heaven and if we join the JW organization and perform the duties they request we will live forever on a paradise earth after Armageddon.

They claim Jesus is also the archangel Michael. Jesus is above all names. He is above all things. But they made him a little lower than God and turned him into a created being rather than the creator who created all things through Him and by Him and for Him.

They are going around convincing people they can live on a paradise earth and avoid the annhialation of their soul and their life if they join the JW organization.

 

[Valetic]

When they pass around the flesh and blood once a year nobody takes to eat and nobody takes to drink. Only the 144k are allowed to eat and drink the Lord's flesh and blood at communion.

 

[1213]

Jehovah's witnesses reject the diety of Jesus and deny that he should be worshiped.

But I don’t think they deny anything that the Bible tells. And for me, that is enough and good. I don’t think Bible says Jesus must be worshiped, but if there is a scripture that says so, please show it?

They are spreading a false gospel of this Jesus that bled and died on a cross, rewrote the bible to fit their modalism, and said that only 144000 are going to heaven …

If that is true, it doesn’t seem to be Biblical belief.

They claim Jesus is also the archangel Michael. Jesus is above all names. He is above all things. But they made him a little lower than God and turned him into a created being rather than the creator who created all things through Him and by Him and for Him.

I don’t know any scripture in the Bible that tells Jesus is Michael. That is why I think it can be wrong belief, but Bible tells God is above Jesus:

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28


…for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Bible tells Jesus is the image of God:


in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 1:14

 

[GodsGrace101]

The scripture I quoted was to point out to those that think the JW are not Christian, that according to scripture, they are at least not of the antichrist. We all admit that the Trinity is hard to comprehend. Scripture is allusive to their uniqueness. They are not exactly the same as the Athanasian Creed wants to convince.

Most Christians teach a supremacy of Christ.
The JW's teach a supremacy of the Father.
Now this is a simplification, but if you just listened to what each stresses, that would be the message you got. If the persons are not equal, I'll put the Father above. Will they go to hell because they don't think the Son eternal? They still believe him their Savor so I don't judge, but I an no expert in their doctrine. But, I don't think heaven requires one to be an expert in doctrine. John 3:16 is a very simple doctrine. Do what the JW believe count? I can't say for sure, but lean to yes.

It appears that you judge them to not be Christian.
The JW and Catholics both stress works based salvation. Protestants stress God's grace, so not a mystery to me.

Catholics here don't know what they're getting themselves into!

They know nothing about works saved salvation...which the CC doesn't even believe, BTW. They believe in justification by faith alone...then comes sanctification; a different story.

I agree with what you've said regarding salvation. I NEVER said they're not saved. I don't know who's saved and who is not...that's for God to know.

What I said is that they cannot claim to be Christian. To be Christian one must believe in the basics of Christianity:
1. That Jesus is God incarnated and that He always existed.
2. That Jesus is God, just as the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. IOW, the Trinity, however one can understand it.
3. One must believe in the resurrection.

Since the JW do not believe Jesus is God, but the SON OF GOD, they cannot be called Christian. This does not mean, to me, that they are not saved. God will judge us on an individual basis according to the life we've lived in accordance with His rules and commandments.