How to shut down a JW 101

KingdomLeast

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When Jesus said, Before Abraham was, I AM (breaking normal grammatical structure to do so: was He trying to make a point?), the Pharisees understood what He meant, and picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:59). Later, when they picked up stones a second time, Jesus asked them what good work they wanted to stone Him for. Their reply, "for a good work we stone thee not; but because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

If the scribes and Pharisees understood what Jesus was saying when He claimed to be the Great I AM; how is it that Jehovah's Witnesses today do not understand?

The answer: 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27.

Believing (with the heart) in the doctrine of the Deity of our Lord is an essential for salvation according to John 8:24 (if you understand the rest).

John 8:58 is a simple statement affirming that Jesus existed before Abraham. The context shows that Jesus is responding to the Jews saying he was not old enough for Abraham to see his day. If Jesus were trying to claim to be the "I AM" of Exodus 3 then the verb of the sentence is completely
missing and this sentence would make no grammatical sense. If Jesus intended to say that he was the "I AM" he would have said "Before Abraham was born I WAS known as "I AM"-- but Jesus did not say this.

It would also be odd for Jesus to chose an event in Moses' day to prove that he lived before
Abraham.

Exodus 6:3 tells us that God was not know to Abraham as "I AM" or any other form of YHWH. See Exodus 6:3.
 
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Tutorman

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When I was in my twenties I meet the most beautiful young women I have ever seen. We introduced ourselves than she tells me she is a Jehovah Witness and all I could say was to her at that point was "all that beautiful frosting and as nutty as a fruitcake" (which was from My Favorite Brunette with Bob Hope) and I zoomed away in my wheelchair. I still think about her to this day.
 
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The Times

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Yes, He is the almighty Yahweh. I just wished I knew how to obey Him, the almighty God.

Jesus Christ heals us. Sometimes it requires us to come to him as a broken and contrite heart. Life itself presents tribulations that requires us to praise his name and in doing so, we are relinquishing any will we have to his Will and by doing this, we become like plasticine to be molded by him over the length of our entire life. Knowing Jesus doesn't happen overnight for most and it requires a life long experience to truly know him, just like a marriage requires time to know each other. This marriage is spiritual and requires patience.
 
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sparow

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Arguing does no good...they have been brainwashed and memorize what jargon they are taught. If you get them off the hamster wheel of speech, they pause, ignore your statement and go right on with what they "know".

I agree, though, as with any non-believer, the ONLY thing to discuss is just WHOM they believe Jesus is! Nothing else matters, no other topic is fruitful until they can see that Jesus IS God.


My experience with JWs is traditionally they will not raise a disputable matter unless they know you and if you asked the to leave they probably would; the Mormons maybe wouldn't leave depending on how nice you ask. I like to talk to them and I have discovered the skill of drawing them out and they are as good as any at apologising the view. I expect their faults are many but their main fault is no keeping the commandments; primarily the fourth commandment.
 
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Gell

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Studying apologetics (presup, expositional, etc) should have an ultimate goal of winning over people and not to win arguments with a boastful heart.
This should be clear first and foremost because we, humans, tend to engage in debate just to win arguments and prove ourselves right which can’t really be helpful if one wants to connect with another
 
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Introverted1293

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Jesus Christ heals us. Sometimes it requires us to come to him as a broken and contrite heart. Life itself presents tribulations that requires us to praise his name and in doing so, we are relinquishing any will we have to his Will and by doing this, we become like plasticine to be molded by him over the length of our entire life. Knowing Jesus doesn't happen overnight for most and it requires a life long experience to truly know him, just like a marriage requires time to know each other. This marriage is spiritual and requires patience.

Thank you.

That was really useful.
 
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justbyfaith

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John 8:58 is a simple statement affirming that Jesus existed before Abraham. The context shows that Jesus is responding to the Jews saying he was not old enough for Abraham to see his day. If Jesus were trying to claim to be the "I AM" of Exodus 3 then the verb of the sentence is completely
missing and this sentence would make no grammatical sense. If Jesus intended to say that he was the "I AM" he would have said "Before Abraham was born I WAS known as "I AM"-- but Jesus did not say this.

It would also be odd for Jesus to chose an event in Moses' day to prove that he lived before
Abraham.

Exodus 6:3 tells us that God was not know to Abraham as "I AM" or any other form of YHWH. See Exodus 6:3.
I am not going to argue with you, friend. It is written that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds, casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. Therefore I will be sending a load of heavy artillery your way (to take out the demonic principalities that are deceiving you): which is even prayer in the Holy Ghost.

Because you did not answer everything that I presented.
 
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Zoii

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When I was in my twenties I meet the most beautiful young women I have ever seen. We introduced ourselves than she tells me she is a Jehovah Witness and all I could say was to her at that point was "all that beautiful frosting and as nutty as a fruitcake" (which was from My Favorite Brunette with Bob Hope) and I zoomed away in my wheelchair. I still think about her to this day.
wow - so dismissive because she held to a different religious view - its as if she meant nothing to you because of a differing view of religion - in fact you call her nutty. What a sad and conceited state Christianity has arrived at when we believe our understanding of God is a privileged view and everyone else is wrong.
 
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TrevorL

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Greetings "friend of",
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jesus IS the Almighty I AM
ALL PRAISE TO YAHWEH!!!
I do not agree with the JW explanation of John 8:58 or Exodus 3:14, but I consider that the Trinitarian insistence that John 8:58 is quoting or alluding to Exodus 3:14 is incorrect. I believe that John 8:58 should be linked with John 8:24 and John 8:28 where the same expression is translated as “I am he”. The following is my explanation of Exodus 3:14:

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

But this was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.

Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM...

I think the problem with you claim is, Jesus doesn’t say in that I am I am. He says “…say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM…”. If we think “I am” means always God, then Jesus is saying “…say unto you, Before Abraham was, God…”. That is not same as saying, “I am God”. I think that would be really bad argument to silence JW.

I am not JW, but I think they are at least as correct as any Christian group, perhaps even more loyal to what the Bible tells than the others. And even if not, they are not against Jesus, so we should not be against them.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Isn't that what we are commissioned to teach or preach? The truth about the gospel? To plant the seed in everyone?

I say I’m set with my spiritual beliefs and then live and represent them in how I treat others. Teaching and preaching comes from living, not chasing people down the street to force God on them.
 
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Valetic

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I say I’m set with my spiritual beliefs and then live and represent them in how I treat others. Teaching and preaching comes from living, not chasing people down the street to force God on them.

Whoever said that in the bible was how you do it? Whoever said anything about chasing people down the street?

You're only doing half of it if you don't tell people about the gospel. Everyone's heard of Jesus but how are they going to know him unless someone tells them?

How do you lead someone to Christ without mention of Christ? So rather than planting seeds we just need to continue living and love each other? What part of that plants a seed of the gospel in them? That leads me to think they would just be envious of you, not want to believe in the religion you believe in...
 
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Valetic

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I think the problem with you claim is, Jesus doesn’t say in that I am I am. He says “…say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM…”. If we think “I am” means always God, then Jesus is saying “…say unto you, Before Abraham was, God…”. That is not same as saying, “I am God”. I think that would be really bad argument to silence JW.

I am not JW, but I think they are at least as correct as any Christian group, perhaps even more loyal to what the Bible tells than the others. And even if not, they are not against Jesus, so we should not be against them.

Indeed they are against Jesus without ever knowing it. They have been craftily decieved.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Whoever said that in the bible was how you do it? Whoever said anything about chasing people down the street?

You're only doing half of it if you don't tell people about the gospel. Everyone's heard of Jesus but how are they going to know him unless someone tells them?

How is it when a JW feels that way about their faith, it’s a problem, but when you feel that way about your beliefs, it’s noble?

How do you lead someone to Christ without mention of Christ? So rather than planting seeds we just need to continue living and love each other? What part of that plants a seed of the gospel in them? That leads me to think they would just be envious of you, not want to believe in the religion you believe in...

I didn’t say I don’t mention my faith. I do. I just extend to them the same respect I hope to receive in turn. I won’t convert to their faith, but let’s be honest, neither will they to mine. I can beat my head against a wall and drive them off, or I can live my beliefs and cultivate a seed that way. It has nothing to do with making them envious. It’s about living how I feel I’m called to live as is consistent with my faith.
 
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GodsGrace101

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The JW's I have talked to have answers for that Scripture.
When I talk to them I show them Jesus accepting worship and the Scripture that says of God that He will not give His glory to another and the fact that there is only one God, none beside Him. So Jesus Christ must be the One True God.
I like what Thomas said...
My Lord and My God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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There are myriads of versions of what someone believes in Christianity whether Catholic. Eastern Orthodox, rattle snake handling fundie, Mormon SDA, or JW. I don't think anyone can argue they have a monopoly to God and are the keepers of truth. Everyone is on a path of learning the best way we know how. I wouldn't be so quick to ridicule another's understanding
They call themselves Christians.
But they aren't Christian's.
 
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Zoii

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They call themselves Christians.
But they aren't Christian's.
Well there are lots of denominations that call themselves Christians. Who is lying and who isn't. The argument here is that we all are telling the truth and everyone else is lying.

My argument is that everyone is coming from a different perspective of whats truth and none of us have a monopoly on it.

If Catholics and Protestants for example, were holders of the truth, then we wouldn't have historically had so many midwives and scientists burnt at the stake. History has shown we haven't actually been very good at being keepers of truth. We've been exposed repeatedly through history to be false and at times down-right immoral.

So I'm not inclined to point at another denomination and accuse them of being Non-christian because they don't align with my religious paradigm.
 
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