How to believe when reason don't want to let you believe?

[Marcie]

Hi, I'm a non-believer who would like to believe. Right now I just don't know if God exists and despite my desire to believe I just can't force myself to do so. I think I've heard all the logical arguments for the existence of God, and while they do make sense all they do is provide a plausible explanation that does not disprove other explanations. Has any of you by any chance been in a similar situation and managed to overcome it? If yes then I would really like to hear how it happened. Thank you in advance.

 

[Albion]

In my opinion, too many people start their inquiry by asking themselves why they should believe in a god, any god.

In the abstract, that question virtually has to be answered by logic. And even if the answer is "yes," they have no clue as to which god or gods or anything about them.

That fact makes believing harder to do and less meaningful since a god, divested of any particular characteristics, accomplishments, interaction with humans, etc. remains a theory that then leads to no other conclusions about how we are to relate to him (if at all), how we are to live our lives, any codes of ethics, anything about an afterlife, and so on.

It is much better to study the Bible and see if the God of Jews, Christians, and Muslims (yes, I know that the concepts differ somewhat between these faiths)--that god--is credible.

If "Yes," all the rest falls into place. It's spelled out for you in that same Bible. If the answer is "No," then what do you have left?

The pagan gods have long sine been vanquished and died, the Hindus have three million gods, and the Eastern/Oriental religions have none at all.

 

[Tolworth John]

think I've heard all the logical arguments for the existence of God, and while they do make sense all they do is provide a plausible explanation that does not disprove other explanations

You got it the wrong way round.
What plausible explanations do you have that explains the existence of the universe life and everything.

Please explain what caused the big bang?
Why is the universe understandable and so ordered? That is maths can be used to explain how things work and what worked last year still works today.
What is your explanation for Jesus?

Be real now, hallucinations only affect one person, someone beaten almost to death and hung by nails in his hands and had a spear shoved into his side is not going to convince anyone that they are alive

So what did happen at that exceution. Did Jesus die and come back to life?
If he did what does that make him?

 

[Silmarien]

Hi, I'm a non-believer who would like to believe. Right now I just don't know if God exists and despite my desire to believe I just can't force myself to do so. I think I've heard all the logical arguments for the existence of God, and while they do make sense all they do is provide a plausible explanation that does not disprove other explanations. Has any of you by any chance been in a similar situation and managed to overcome it? If yes then I would really like to hear how it happened. Thank you in advance.

I actually have been in that situation. As an atheistic philosophy student in college, I'd always gotten a thrill out of tearing theistic arguments apart, so when I finally became a theist, it was very, very difficult to overcome the fear that I was some sort of crypto-atheist engaged in the most absurd game of self-delusion.

I did finally get through it. My path was through medieval metaphysics and modern philosophy of mind--I had to actually defeat the modern explanations (materialism, naturalism) to finally be free of them. This was extremely difficult and took more than a year, but I finally did get through to the other end.

I can't really help you until I know more about where you are and where you're coming from, what arguments you're familiar with and why you think they don't work. The intellectual path that I took might work for you, though it probably depends on the things that are drawing you to theism in the first place and what sorts of underlying questions you have about reality. But I can try to introduce you to the heavier side of theistic argumentation, if you want.

 

[com7fy8]

I just don't know

Hi, Natalie Welcome to Christian Forums I am Bill, pleased to meet you God bless you however He pleases

I am now thinking that God is so more and better and different than the "god" which people are trying to prove or disprove.

You can read the Bible and discover all this says about God. And very possibly it will be clear we can not use just logic to prove all we have in God's word about Him.

But in us God proves Himself to us, doing with us all His word says we need to do . . . which is meant to be in personal sharing with Him.

I can't prove that God is our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit > all how "God is love" (please see 1 John 8:&16). But I can see there is logical stuff you can conclude from this > how God is about family caring and sharing love, and He is personal with His children. So, if we try to handle God in a theoretical and logical way, this can keep us away . . . not discovering Him in personal sharing in His own love >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, God is this personal with us who are His children.

And I think we can get some help about how to be with God and so personally share with Him and submit to how He guides us >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

If this scripture means God's love is gentle and quiet . . . you can see why people are not experiencing God. Because we in our human ways can be living in our own mental and emotional and intellectual chaos which keeps us noisy so we miss God who is quiet and gentle and humble in how He shares with His children.

I have offered what anyone can read in the Bible, haven't I? But ones arguing and denying can have a way of not bringing your attention to this, right? Now, why would that be? If people are honest and trustworthy and competent readers, I would think they would know these scriptures and include them in their discussion of God.

You might evaluate why they haven't. I mean, if God is quiet and gentle and humble and all-loving, why are people not experiencing Him to be like this?? Jesus suffered and died for each and every person, with hope for even any evil person, at all. So, any of us can share with Jesus, by personally caring about each and every person, with hope for any person, at all > because God's love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). And this is how we know Him > by being pleasing to our Father in His love's "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God", while personally caring for any and all people in sharing with Jesus.

While we share with God in His all-loving love, we also discover how, with Jesus, we have His almighty power to keep us free from that chaos which keeps people elsewhere > "the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:4-7)

We understand how God is almighty, right? Well, then, this peace of God is almighty to easily guard our "hearts and minds" < clearly said, right in God's word. This is logical, though we can not prove this with only intellectual discussion; we need how God proves this, in us.

 

[Marcie]

You got it the wrong way round.
What plausible explanations do you have that explains the existence of the universe life and everything

Just because we often don't know the answers does not mean God is the answer. Can God be the answer? Absolutely. Can we be a plaything of some super-advanced civilisation? Yes. A simulation? It also makes sense. We just don't know. By assuming it's definitely God we're no different from ancient Greeks who assumed that Zeus was responsible for lighting blots because they had no other explanation. As for Ressurection of Jesus (Which might, or might have not happened. First records of this were Christian and were written decades after the supposed resurrection) - God is as good of an explanation as a plot orchestrated by Reptilians. We can't prove or disprove either.

 

[redleghunter]

Right now I just don't know if God exists and despite my desire to believe I just can't force myself to do so.

As you explore 'belief' I would like to share some key characteristics of 'Willful unbelief.'

1) unbelief sets false standards;

2) unbelief always wants more evidence but never has enough;

3) unbelief does biased research on a purely subjective basis;

4) unbelief rejects the facts; and

5) unbelief is self-centered.

 

[com7fy8]

We can't prove or disprove

You have mentioned a few distant possibilities, of what would be the case of impersonal beings who do not personally care for us humans.

But God through Jesus loves us dearly, and He is personally involved with every one of us. This is part of why Jesus left Heaven in order to come here on earth to reach us and save us and share His very own good with us. Jesus is not conceited, then, though He is so superior to how we have been!

Plus, now we are experiencing His personal communication and activity in our lives, whether we know this or not >

"God resists the proud,
.But gives grace to the humble."
. . . . . . . . . . (in 1 Peter 5:5)

But many are in pride so they have the personal communication of His resistance!! So they do have proof of His existence. But pride and its chaos can keep them in denial.

 

[redleghunter]

Just because we often don't know the answers does not mean God is the answer. Can God be the answer? Absolutely. Can we be a plaything of some super-advanced civilisation? Yes. A simulation? It also makes sense. We just don't know. By assuming it's definitely God we're no different from ancient Greeks who assumed that Zeus was responsible for lighting blots because they had no other explanation. As for Ressurection of Jesus (Which might, or might have not happened. First records of this were Christian and were written decades after the supposed resurrection) - God is as good of an explanation as a plot orchestrated by Reptilians. We can't prove or disprove either.

The best we can do as Christians giving you advice is (1) what @Albion suggested...Read the Holy Scriptures---The Bible. It is in Holy Scriptures where the God of the Hebrew and Christian faiths YHWH has revealed Himself to mankind. Want to get to know Him? Study the Bible.

(2) This is what the New Testament says about 'belief' and 'faith' which is related to #1 above:

Romans 4: NASB

8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

 

[crossnote]

Hi, I'm a non-believer who would like to believe. Right now I just don't know if God exists and despite my desire to believe I just can't force myself to do so. I think I've heard all the logical arguments for the existence of God, and while they do make sense all they do is provide a plausible explanation that does not disprove other explanations. Has any of you by any chance been in a similar situation and managed to overcome it? If yes then I would really like to hear how it happened. Thank you in advance.

Faith won't come by a wrestling match with logic.
Faith comes by God's Word, i.e. the revelation God has given about Himself through His Word.
It boils down to which will you hold to? Man's reason or God's revelation?

 

[Marcie]

I did finally get through it. My path was through medieval metaphysics and modern philosophy of mind--I had to actually defeat the modern explanations (materialism, naturalism) to finally be free of them.

And what made you go from "I don't know/It's definitely not God/It might be God but doesn't really have to" to "it's definitely God!"? What makes you sure that this is the right answer and not something else we haven't come up with yet (or simply can't because our cognitive abilities are simply not good enough to fully comprehend reality).

 

[Marcie]

Faith won't come by a wrestling match with logic.
Faith comes by God's Word, i.e. the revelation God has given about Himself through His Word.
It boils down to which will you hold to? Man's reason or God's revelation?

The issue is that reason makes me doubt that the Bible (or any other holy text for that matter) is God's revelation

 

[Silmarien]

And what made you go from "I don't know/It's definitely not God/It might be God but doesn't really have to" to "it's definitely God!"? What makes you sure that this is the right answer and not something else we haven't come up with yet (or simply can't because our cognitive abilities are simply not good enough to fully comprehend reality).

Well... to take your question so literally as to be useless, the Principal of Sufficient Reason, the objection from modal collapse, and a free will defense presented by a Scotist. That was when the scales finally fell away for real, though it took a while to get there and I still didn't have all the divine attributes accounted for.

(If you know what that means, then you likely do already know the more serious arguments. If you don't, then that's okay. I can introduce them to you, if you want.)

I did have problems with the epistemological question of whether we could know something like this for a while, but finally came to the conclusion that it's the one thing we actually come the closest to having true knowledge of, just due to the way various theories of knowledge collapse.

Asking me what worked for me isn't going to be of much use, since like I said, it took at least a year, and you can't really reduce something like that to a post, but if you want to talk, I can try to figure out where you are and what I can do to help you.

 

[crossnote]

The issue is that reason makes me doubt that the Bible (or any other holy text for that matter) is God's revelation

Right, so which will you trust? Reason or Revelation?
How well has your reason been in foretelling future events?
Hundreds have been spelled out in Scripture especially concerning Christ's first coming. e.g. Isaiah 53

 

[Albion]

The issue is that reason makes me doubt that the Bible (or any other holy text for that matter) is God's revelation

We appreciate straightforward answers like that one. It makes coming to grips with the issue, the question, easier to do.

So in reply, I'd ask "What, in your view, is it that casts doubt on the Bible's account of events?

It has been described as the most questioned book in the world, and whether or not that's true, it has had innumerable challenges thrown at it over the centuries and yet it has not been disproved.

In addition, it is almost unique among the various religions' sacred texts for being an historical record that has proven out...as well as a book of spiritual advice.

 

[Marcie]

Asking me what worked for me isn't going to be of much use, since like I said, it took at least a year, and you can't really reduce something like that to a post, but if you want to talk, I can try to figure out where you are and what I can do to help you.

Hmm, I'm not sure exactly how to describe "when I am". I'm just looking for arguments that would convince me that God exists. Unlike you, I am not well versed in philosophy. I admit I definitely went too far when I wrote "all the logical arguments". I should have written "all the common arguments". I do not know what modal collapse and the Scotist thingy is (although I might have heard about those and just don't know/remember they're called that way). Either way, I'd definitely like to explore those. For now could you please refer me to some sources on those topics?

So in reply, I'd ask "What, in your view, is it that casts doubt on the Bible's account of events?

It claims things which are hard to believe and for which there is no proof I know of (I'm talking about the supernatural). The "divine" claims of the Bible have indeed not been disproven, but how could they be? How do we prove a lack of existence of heaven or God? We can't. Just like we can't prove karma doesn't work. Just because something has not been disproven doesn't mean it's true. The burden of the proof lies on the side claiming that God exists.

 

[Silmarien]

Hmm, I'm not sure exactly how to describe "when I am". I'm just looking for arguments that would convince me that God exists. Unlike you, I am not well versed in philosophy. I admit I definitely went too far when I wrote "all the logical arguments". I should have written "all the common arguments". I do not know what modal collapse and the Scotist thingy is (although I might have heard about those and just don't know/remember they're called that way). Either way, I'd definitely like to explore those. For now could you please refer me to some sources on those topics?

No worries. The frustration with theism is that we all think we already know what the arguments are (and even what theism itself is!), up until the point where we find out that we didn't.

I think a good starting place to wipe away false ideas about what we even mean by the word "God" is David Bentley Hart's The Experience of God. He's Eastern Orthodox, but the book is written from a cross-cultural perspective, looking at the ways in which a variety of different religions approach the question (and how similar they really are). It's more evocative than argumentative, but is a great gate-way drug into classical theism.

(Scotism is a school of thought in Catholic scholasticism, so there's really no reason to have known about it. If you would like a run-down on the Principle of Sufficient Reason, there is a link here you can look at, though people have a tendency to think it's trying to prove more than it is, so that might not be the best starting place. I think it would be a better idea to get a picture of what theology means by the word "God" first.)

 

[Runner12]

Hi, I'm a non-believer who would like to believe. Right now I just don't know if God exists and despite my desire to believe I just can't force myself to do so. I think I've heard all the logical arguments for the existence of God, and while they do make sense all they do is provide a plausible explanation that does not disprove other explanations. Has any of you by any chance been in a similar situation and managed to overcome it? If yes then I would really like to hear how it happened. Thank you in advance.

It is impossible to reason your way to belief. "Wanting to believe" (or disbelieve) is irrelevant. Trying to "force yourself" to believe is an exercise in futility.

Theism makes sense. There are good philosophical arguments for it and pretty good evidence for it. Ditto for atheism. Ditto for Christianity and religions other than Christianity. It is impossible to weigh the arguments and evidence for each and arrive at anything resembling a conviction. It will be at best an intellectual house of cards.

I say this as someone who is very highly educated and very intellectual. I have studied vast amounts of the arguments and evidence for many years. Nevertheless, belief struck me like lightening when I was 20 years old, not searching, not seeking, and really wholly unprepared for what occurred.

I believe the Christian concepts of God "calling" and the Spirit "convicting" are essentially true. When the time is right, belief will happen. The only "trying" I might suggest is to spend time in quiet and prayerful contemplation, inviting God to reveal himself to you. It may not happen in a week, but if you are sincere I have to believe it will happen.

 

[Marcie]

Right, so which will you trust? Reason or Revelation?
How well has your reason been in foretelling future events?
Hundreds have been spelled out in Scripture especially concerning Christ's first coming. e.g. Isaiah 53

I don't believe the Bible is a revelation (I'm not saying it can't possibly be, I'm just not convinced that it is). If I were to believe some revelation it would be due to reason telling me it's believable, or some kinda unexplained conviction, which I just don't have. As for the prophecies - what's said in the New Testament (and had not been confirmed by other historical sources) can't really be a proof of their fulfilment. Authors of the Gospels knew those prophecies and could bend the facts to fit (some of) them. Plus many have not been fulfilled (Christians claim they will be fulfilled later, while the Jews claim they discredit Jesus) or require lots of logical, linguistic and interpretational gymnastics to be considered fulfilled (like the fall of Tyre, for which each church appears to have its own interpretation conflicting with others)

 

[Albion]

It claims things which are hard to believe and for which there is no proof I know of (I'm talking about the supernatural).

True enough. That's the nature of religion. However, I recognize that you asked about God, not about religions.

The "divine" claims of the Bible have indeed not been disproven, but how could they be? How do we prove a lack of existence of heaven or God? We can't.

Agreed. So the two are equally unproven and unprovable. That's something in itself.

The burden of the proof lies on the side claiming that God exists.

I'm not sure that that does follow. After all, if there were no God, no first cause, the origin of all things would remain unanswered and yet need an answer, so I would say that there is a presumption in favor of a Creator.

But yet, we could go round that mulberry bush forever and not settle anything. So we are still at my suggestion that you do some study, not necessarily an intensive one, of the Bible and see if it makes any difference.