How to be Born Again

def

Member
Site Supporter
Oct 13, 2010
584
62
✟89,770.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You're not saying anything I didn't. Baptism is the invitation to examine the requirements and promises of the new covenant. Whilst John's baptism promised escape from wrath, further to studying and accepting God's requirements and promises under the Old Covenant, Jesus' baptism promised escape from the CONDITION that brought on wrath, further to studying and accepting God's requirements and promises under the New Covenant, through
being IN Christ.

I am reposting baptism here:

The complexity science approach. Build a network by making connections. Use appropriate pattern recognition technique to create a starting node - segment into types of baptism, and find the purpose of each.
  1. List all passages with baptism. Too many, but spotted two types, and will proceed from there (different types are often the source of confusion).

  2. John mentioned two types of baptism: with water and with the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5).

  3. There is only one relevant baptism (Eph 4:5, one Lord, one faith, one baptism).

  4. Which baptism is relevant? John’s water baptism does not count (Acts 19:1-5, believers who were water-baptised were baptised “again” by Paul in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

  5. John’s water baptism (Mt 3:11) has a specific purpose. John was a messenger sent ahead of Jesus, to prepare the way (make straight the way) for people to recognise the messiah (John 1:23-27). When Jesus was water-baptised, the heavens opened, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him (John 1:32-34), and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” (Luke 3:21).

  6. Why is Jesus introduced through water baptism? The scene represents a process for others: when people repent (water baptism is for repentance), the Holy Spirit descends upon them.

  7. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is an appeal to God for a good conscience (1 Peter 3:21). The good conscience is the laws put into their minds and written on their hearts (Hebs 8:10, Jer 31, Eze 36). This is where the Holy Spirit is gifted.

  8. Baptism (with the Holy Spirit) saves (Mark 16:16). Baptism with the Holy Spirit saves because those baptised are born again, they live (John 3:5-8 ). Those who live and believes, never die (John 11:25-26).

  9. Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19). Jesus’ disciples are to baptise on Jesus’ behalf (Acts 8:16). Jesus can baptise believers directly (Acts 10:44).

  10. It is ok to have water baptism, believers were baptised with the Holy Spirit and then went on to do water baptism (Acts 10:47).

  11. Why should people water-baptise, if they are already saved? Answer in Matthew 10:32-33.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am glad you see the importance of pattern recognition, but there is also a need to construct a network of related teachings, logically connecting the related teachings.

I am not such how you jump from born again to change mind, a different mindset. Nicodemus was a Pharisee, he is strict with observing the Law, I would say he had the right mindset.

"Change of mind" is an earthly thing, but Jesus was speaking of heavenly things (Jn 3:12). I am sure Nicodemus would understand earthly things that you have mentioned: loving fellow men, giving away an extra coat, serving God. Jesus cannot be explaining something to Nicodemus that Nicodemus already know.

The problem is that the Law was given to showcase the efficacy of being loyal to God.

Every nation had a code that promoted prosperity through fair contract. You worked and you were paid. You stole and you were punished. Cause and effect. Pain resulted in gain. Cutting corners resulted in punishment.

However, Torah was different. Gain came from dependency on God.

You couldnt increase your harvest by planting more or working harder. Harvest was dependent on water and Canaan was unlike Egypt which could control harvest by how much they planted and how much water they drew from the Nile. In the Promised land, harvest depended on loyaty to God who would then case rain to fall.

Deuteronomy 11
10“For the land, into which you are entering to possess it, is not like the land of Egypt from which you came, where you used to sow your seed and water it with your foot like a vegetable garden.

Loyalty to God was following Torah in its essence:

Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Every prophet up to John taught the essence of Torah (but was rejected):

Matthew 21
33“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 34“When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35“The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36“Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37“But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38“But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39“They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40“Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” 41They said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”

42Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,

‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,

THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,

AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES’?

43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44“And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.

You see, the Pharisees examined the law and rationalised everything away:

Mark 7
6And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,

BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

7‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,

TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’

8“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

They read the law and said to themselves, “Did God really say those words? How can it be true? Lets be realistic and understand how things really work. The best way to run things is to look after Number One.”

Were all Jews the same?

Romans 11
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”

.......

Romans 9
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

29And just as Isaiah foretold,

“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,

WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

There are two components to be born again: born of water and Spirit. From pattern recognition, water is determined to be a person's spirit (man is dust + spirit). We are born of dust, and born again (another birth) of the spirit. It is the born again spirit that gives everlasting life.

Being born of water is being born of John’s baptism leading to escaping from God’s wrath by accepting the essence of the Law, leading to remaining in the Promised Land, whle others were vomited out into Babylon.

But there remains a rest to be entered, a spiritual Land, which is what being born of the spirit, by being born from Jesus’ baptism enables.
 
Upvote 0

def

Member
Site Supporter
Oct 13, 2010
584
62
✟89,770.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Being born of water is being born of John’s baptism leading to escaping from God’s wrath by accepting the essence of the Law, leading to remaining in the Promised Land, whle others were vomited out into Babylon.

But there remains a rest to be entered, a spiritual Land, which is what being born of the spirit, by being born from Jesus’ baptism enables.
Am I understanding you correctly?

Born of water and Spirit; water refers to John's water baptism, and Spirit refers to Jesus' baptism of the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
I am reposting baptism here:

The complexity science approach. Build a network by making connections. Use appropriate pattern recognition technique to create a starting node - segment into types of baptism, and find the purpose of each.
  1. List all passages with baptism. Too many, but spotted two types, and will proceed from there (different types are often the source of confusion).

  2. John mentioned two types of baptism: with water and with the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5).

  3. There is only one relevant baptism (Eph 4:5, one Lord, one faith, one baptism).

  4. Which baptism is relevant? John’s water baptism does not count (Acts 19:1-5, believers who were water-baptised were baptised “again” by Paul in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

  5. John’s water baptism (Mt 3:11) has a specific purpose. John was a messenger sent ahead of Jesus, to prepare the way (make straight the way) for people to recognise the messiah (John 1:23-27). When Jesus was water-baptised, the heavens opened, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him (John 1:32-34), and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” (Luke 3:21).

  6. Why is Jesus introduced through water baptism? The scene represents a process for others: when people repent (water baptism is for repentance), the Holy Spirit descends upon them.

  7. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is an appeal to God for a good conscience (1 Peter 3:21). The good conscience is the laws put into their minds and written on their hearts (Hebs 8:10, Jer 31, Eze 36). This is where the Holy Spirit is gifted.

  8. Baptism (with the Holy Spirit) saves (Mark 16:16). Baptism with the Holy Spirit saves because those baptised are born again, they live (John 3:5-8 ). Those who live and believes, never die (John 11:25-26).

  9. Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19). Jesus’ disciples are to baptise on Jesus’ behalf (Acts 8:16). Jesus can baptise believers directly (Acts 10:44).

  10. It is ok to have water baptism, believers were baptised with the Holy Spirit and then went on to do water baptism (Acts 10:47).

  11. Why should people water-baptise, if they are already saved? Answer in Matthew 10:32-33.

The 66 books of the Bible are a novel, not a science textbook. You will miss of overarching story reading it as you do; therefore missing the entire point on any subject.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Am I understanding you correctly?

Born of water and Spirit; water refers to John's water baptism, and Spirit refers to Jesus' baptism of the Holy Spirit.


The Exodus is a good analogy of the plan of salvation of men that God put into force right after the Fall, when God said that the seed of the woman would strike the head of the serpent (selfish living).

Israel left serving Egypt, symbolising a decision to turn away from selfish living, crossed the Red Sea, signifying willingness to learn from God how He would use her to be the vessel of honour in His plan of salvation, did learn that God required her to be the suffering servant, the lamb without blemish, through observing the essence of the Law, and finally to be that servant that laid down her life for the salvation of the world.

What Israel did not do, Jesus did.

The Israel of God did take on representation of man, left serving Egypt/the world/mammon, was accepted by baptism into finding out God's requirements for Him, did not succumb to temptation to return to serving Egypt in the face of being deceived by Satan in the wilderness, unlike Israel.

Look at Jesus’ words to the rich young ruler:

Matthew 19:16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

So entering into eternal life is by being loyal to God and His requirements. We know that most of Israel had replaced the law with traditions of men. Those who believed the pure Torah were the ones who had not bowed their knees to Baal, they were the remnant. The latter group were protected by God, escaped wrath, signified by the baptism of water, of John the Baptist and all the prophets before him, back to Moses.


However, are these the complete promises of God to those He accepted as His followers? I had mentioned above about an honour, a special privilege God promised Abraham. God was so pleased with Abraham that He did not only promise protection to his descendants, but a role in His plan of salvation, a privilege, an honour, to be used by God to be a blessing to the world:

Acts 3:25"It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.'

So the rich young ruler is thinking about this purposeful life enabling promise (as opposed to futile life of the world) when he questions Jesus further (yes, the Gospel is deep and complex):

Matthew 19:20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”



When we are baptised with the water AND the spirit, the promises received are protection through being turned away from selfish living (leaving Egypt) AND entering the REAL Promised Land, Christ. When we are IN Chist, we rest from our own works and share in the honour and privilege earned by Jesus’ work!



Hebrews 4:3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,

THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”

although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
 
Upvote 0

RisenInJesus

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2016
608
273
USA
✟34,201.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No verse is, but the answer to His question is also not found in the book of Galatians. Verses 7-8 are the answer that Jesus gave to his question. If that's not clear, I don't know what can be.
Maybe you should consider listening to your own advice... "The 66 books of the Bible are a novel, not a science textbook. You will miss of overarching story reading it as you do; therefore missing the entire point on any subject (post #64).

I don't understand how you post what you did previously, yet you are so willing to isolate John 3:7-8 from the context of the passage, neglecting the rest of Jesus' words in His the answer to Nicodemus, and the overarching gospel message of the NT. I have certainly seen JW's and Mormons do this to support their doctrinal systems. I find it very disturbing when it seems that Calvinists too often take this same approach to the scriptures to fit their theology. The book of Galatians makes a big deal about the importance of faith preceding salvation, as do pretty much all the rest of the books in the NT. The fact that faith and belief in Jesus Christ is the condition which determines whether or not one is regenerated and receives the gift of eternal life is made abundantly clear in numerous places throughout the NT...

This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal. 3:2

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:49

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 1:38-39

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. Acts 16:30-32

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. Romans 4:23-25

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Roams 5:1-2

knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16


To say that being born again happens before one expresses faith in Jesus Christ is contrary to the entire NT and no one comes to this conclusion from reading their Bible alone. When compared to the scriptures I think it is clear that Calvinism, TULIP, or the "Doctrines of Grace" is a system of theology made by men and one arrives at this kind of thinking only after reading or listening to Reformed or Calvinistic teachers and seeing the scriptures interpreted through their teachings. Why not try simply reading your Bible alone and asking God to give His insight into what is being said?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith, Romans 1:16-17

Since you brought up Galatians, it might also be worth noting the warning about different gospels which deviate from the biblical gospel...

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I am reposting baptism here:

The complexity science approach. Build a network by making connections. Use appropriate pattern recognition technique to create a starting node - segment into types of baptism, and find the purpose of each.
  1. List all passages with baptism. Too many, but spotted two types, and will proceed from there (different types are often the source of confusion).

  2. John mentioned two types of baptism: with water and with the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5).

  3. There is only one relevant baptism (Eph 4:5, one Lord, one faith, one baptism).

  4. Which baptism is relevant? John’s water baptism does not count (Acts 19:1-5, believers who were water-baptised were baptised “again” by Paul in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

  5. John’s water baptism (Mt 3:11) has a specific purpose. John was a messenger sent ahead of Jesus, to prepare the way (make straight the way) for people to recognise the messiah (John 1:23-27). When Jesus was water-baptised, the heavens opened, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him (John 1:32-34), and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” (Luke 3:21).

  6. Why is Jesus introduced through water baptism? The scene represents a process for others: when people repent (water baptism is for repentance), the Holy Spirit descends upon them.

  7. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is an appeal to God for a good conscience (1 Peter 3:21). The good conscience is the laws put into their minds and written on their hearts (Hebs 8:10, Jer 31, Eze 36). This is where the Holy Spirit is gifted.

  8. Baptism (with the Holy Spirit) saves (Mark 16:16). Baptism with the Holy Spirit saves because those baptised are born again, they live (John 3:5-8 ). Those who live and believes, never die (John 11:25-26).

  9. Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19). Jesus’ disciples are to baptise on Jesus’ behalf (Acts 8:16). Jesus can baptise believers directly (Acts 10:44).

  10. It is ok to have water baptism, believers were baptised with the Holy Spirit and then went on to do water baptism (Acts 10:47).

  11. Why should people water-baptise, if they are already saved? Answer in Matthew 10:32-33.

1) Your first false assumption is that baptism with water is somehow uniquely and only identified with John the Baptist, which you errenously then use to proceed to make another false assumption:

2) That other mentions of baptism must therefore be some sort of "spiritual" baptism. Yet Scripture tells us what the baptism with the Holy Spirit is, and when/where it happened--the text specifically states it.

With these two false assumptions you have reached false conclusions, and committed serious eisegesis to the biblical texts.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Tevilah and mikveh were purification rituals, hardly analagous to baptism. Baptism was unique to John the Forerunner, and was a way to get in, rather than a way to stay in, the group having God's approval and thereby escaping His wrath.

No, what John was doing wasn't something new, it was fundamentally tevilah. The meaning and purpose of tevilah in Judaism had (and has) a number of uses. John calling Jews to wash themselves in repentance in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah is a prophetic use of tevilah, but it's still tevilah.

Claiming that tevilah isn't analogous to baptism makes no sense given historical and cultural context. St. John the Baptist didn't come up with the idea of washing for the purpose of being made clean before God, that idea is baked into Judaism. John certainly wasn't offering just any old tevilah, as a prophet calling people to repentance and preparing the way for the coming of the Messiah gives a particular character to what he was doing that makes it more than just regular tevilah, but it is not some brand new animal disconnected with centuries of Jewish practice of ritual washing.

Likewise, Christian baptism didn't just suddenly show up in a vacuum, Jesus didn't instruct His apostles to baptize and then the apostles were all, "er, what's that?" But it is clear instead that the use of washing for religious purpose was well established in Judaism--tevilah--and so what John was doing was culturally comprehensible, there's no reason to assume that John was saying, "Come down here to the river and be washed for repentance" and people were completely befuddled by the meaning of it, the meaning would have been very clear because Judaism had the practice and the language to give context to the meaning, making it culturally comprehensible. Likewise, Christian baptism though distinct and for a different meaning and purpose than either Jewish tevilah or what John was doing, has its antecedent in both and was a readily comprehensible practice and concept--what made Christian baptism distinct and unique was that it was identified with Christ, and with His death and resurrection, bringing with it forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit. This is the context clues to why Paul would ask, "What baptism did you receive?" to the group in Acts 19, why did he ask this? It was the follow up question to whether they had received the Holy Spirit, they were confused, "We didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit"--that is what leads to Paul's second question of what baptism they received, and their answer "John's" explains why, and also gives context to what Paul did next: He preached the Gospel, then he baptized them (Christian baptism), and then laid hands on them. The reason why Christians baptize is for the distinctively Christian purpose and meaning of that it unites us to Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-7), clothes us with Christ (Galatians 3:27), is for the remission of sins and reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), so on and so forth.

Ignoring Scripture, ignoring the historical, cultural, and religious context of the persons, events, and ideas presented in Scripture is a very good way to avoid the meaning of the texts or be woefully misinformed and ignorant of it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

def

Member
Site Supporter
Oct 13, 2010
584
62
✟89,770.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1) Your first false assumption is that baptism with water is somehow uniquely and only identified with John the Baptist, which you errenously then use to proceed to make another false assumption:

2) That other mentions of baptism must therefore be some sort of "spiritual" baptism. Yet Scripture tells us what the baptism with the Holy Spirit is, and when/where it happened--the text specifically states it.

With these two false assumptions you have reached false conclusions, and committed serious eisegesis to the biblical texts.

-CryptoLutheran
Please state the different types of baptism, and where they are explained in the Bible. Many thanks.
 
Upvote 0

def

Member
Site Supporter
Oct 13, 2010
584
62
✟89,770.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So entering into eternal life is by being loyal to God and His requirements. We know that most of Israel had replaced the law with traditions of men. Those who believed the pure Torah were the ones who had not bowed their knees to Baal, they were the remnant. The latter group were protected by God, escaped wrath, signified by the baptism of water, of John the Baptist and all the prophets before him, back to Moses.
...

When we are baptised with the water AND the spirit, the promises received are protection through being turned away from selfish living (leaving Egypt) AND entering the REAL Promised Land, Christ. When we are IN Chist, we rest from our own works and share in the honour and privilege earned by Jesus’ work!
Nicodemus was not asking what he must do, but he was asking HOW a person can have a second birth (born again). Trying to work out the things involved and the process, surely, he said, an old man cannot enter into his mother's womb.

Then Jesus explained to him it is of water and Spirit, correcting his thinking about an old man entering his mother's womb.

Nicodemus was stunned, "How can these things be?" If water baptism is required of Nicodemus, he would understand it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

def

Member
Site Supporter
Oct 13, 2010
584
62
✟89,770.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The 66 books of the Bible are a novel, not a science textbook. You will miss of overarching story reading it as you do; therefore missing the entire point on any subject.
Someone on this forum mentioned that there are 44,000 denominations, hard to believe that number, but one thing that cannot be denied: there are lots of confusion and disagreements over what the Bible is saying.
A network needs correcting as more information and understanding come to light, but the network is always getting better and better, and converging on the answer. In contrast, traditional methods produce opinions and new meanings, where more information leads to more opinions, and the result we have today: CHAOS.

Insanity is using the same methods and strategies, and expecting different result (modified from Einstein quote).
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Someone on this forum mentioned that there are 44,000 denominations, hard to believe that number, but one thing that cannot be denied: there are lots of confusion and disagreements over what the Bible is saying.
A network needs correcting as more information and understanding come to light, but the network is always getting better and better, and converging on the answer. In contrast, traditional methods produce opinions and new meanings, where more information leads to more opinions, and the result we have today: CHAOS.

Insanity is using the same methods and strategies, and expecting different result (modified from Einstein quote).

Man's sin is largely responsible for division. Self-appointed and untrained leaders is also a huge factor.

I'm actually suggesting to you to try a different approach. What you are attempting has already been done. Many people have reduce the Bible to a reference book. Systematic Theology is what has gotten us to this point. Biblical Theology is what I am suggesting will help us escape it.

The Bible is misread when there is not the framework of the OT - the covenant, upon which it is understood.

Why was Jesus baptized? He was perfect. Did He need a baptism of repentance?
 
Upvote 0

def

Member
Site Supporter
Oct 13, 2010
584
62
✟89,770.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Man's sin is largely responsible for division. Self-appointed and untrained leaders is also a huge factor.

I'm actually suggesting to you to try a different approach. What you are attempting has already been done. Many people have reduce the Bible to a reference book. Systematic Theology is what has gotten us to this point. Biblical Theology is what I am suggesting will help us escape it.

The Bible is misread when there is not the framework of the OT - the covenant, upon which it is understood.

Why was Jesus baptized? He was perfect. Did He need a baptism of repentance?

Complexity science (CS) is not systematic theology (ST). CS is a non-reductionist approach, while ST is reductionist. Reductionism will fail when dealing with a complex "system" like the Bible.

Biblical theology fares no better, and I quote from gotquestions.org:
"As a result, the field of biblical theology is checkered with every imaginable opinion and variation of what the Bible teaches. Biblical theology is utterly dependent upon the hermeneutics of the theologian. The methods employed in interpreting Scripture are crucially important to biblical theology. One’s biblical theology can be no better than the methods he uses to interpret Scripture."

And to answer your question regarding Jesus baptism, node 5 of the baptism network given above noted the reason, and is found in John 1:31, water baptism of Jesus was an event to manifest the messiah to Israel, the people who went there were the Pharisees.

I am not saying the network is perfect, but it serves as a structure to hold teachings together. If a teaching does not fit, the entire network may need to be evaluated.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, what John was doing wasn't something new, it was fundamentally tevilah. The meaning and purpose of tevilah in Judaism had (and has) a number of uses. John calling Jews to wash themselves in repentance in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah is a prophetic use of tevilah, but it's still tevilah.

Claiming that tevilah isn't analogous to baptism makes no sense given historical and cultural context. St. John the Baptist didn't come up with the idea of washing for the purpose of being made clean before God, that idea is baked into Judaism. John certainly wasn't offering just any old tevilah, as a prophet calling people to repentance and preparing the way for the coming of the Messiah gives a particular character to what he was doing that makes it more than just regular tevilah, but it is not some brand new animal disconnected with centuries of Jewish practice of ritual washing.

Likewise, Christian baptism didn't just suddenly show up in a vacuum, Jesus didn't instruct His apostles to baptize and then the apostles were all, "er, what's that?" But it is clear instead that the use of washing for religious purpose was well established in Judaism--tevilah--and so what John was doing was culturally comprehensible, there's no reason to assume that John was saying, "Come down here to the river and be washed for repentance" and people were completely befuddled by the meaning of it, the meaning would have been very clear because Judaism had the practice and the language to give context to the meaning, making it culturally comprehensible. Likewise, Christian baptism though distinct and for a different meaning and purpose than either Jewish tevilah or what John was doing, has its antecedent in both and was a readily comprehensible practice and concept--what made Christian baptism distinct and unique was that it was identified with Christ, and with His death and resurrection, bringing with it forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit. This is the context clues to why Paul would ask, "What baptism did you receive?" to the group in Acts 19, why did he ask this? It was the follow up question to whether they had received the Holy Spirit, they were confused, "We didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit"--that is what leads to Paul's second question of what baptism they received, and their answer "John's" explains why, and also gives context to what Paul did next: He preached the Gospel, then he baptized them (Christian baptism), and then laid hands on them. The reason why Christians baptize is for the distinctively Christian purpose and meaning of that it unites us to Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-7), clothes us with Christ (Galatians 3:27), is for the remission of sins and reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), so on and so forth.

Ignoring Scripture, ignoring the historical, cultural, and religious context of the persons, events, and ideas presented in Scripture is a very good way to avoid the meaning of the texts or be woefully misinformed and ignorant of it.

-CryptoLutheran

It doesn't matter what immersion was used for by Judaism.

What matters is the closer analogies of baptism found in the Exodus narrative.

There, baptism is what follows when a person decides that selfish living isn't working, leaves it, Egypt, and considers what's on offer from God. The analogy is the opening of the Red Sea.

Some found God's method, challenge and reward good, and decided, based on reliability, they and their family, to follow God, others found it terrifying: the taking of risks, stepping out in faith and being rewarded. They preferred the known and the safe even if deprived and oppressed, to the venturing out required for seeking better prospects.

This is also the pattern of the early church, some believing in the futility of selfish living, serving Mammon, and deciding, rather, to follow God, laying down their property at Peter's feet, whilst others reverted, like Simon Magus and Ananias and Sapphira
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nicodemus was not asking what he must do, but he was asking HOW a person can have a second birth (born again). Trying to work out the things involved and the process, surely, he said, an old man cannot enter into his mother's womb.

Then Jesus explained to him it is of water and Spirit, correcting his thinking about an old man entering his mother's womb.

Nicodemus was stunned, "How can these things be?" If water baptism is required of Nicodemus, he would understand it.

Repentance, changing of mind is a two step process.

First the candidate acknowledges the futility of serving the world.

Then baptism is open to him. The sea opens and he is fed bread from heaven. All are fed with Christ, but not all profited. Those who believed have been born again.

They need this process to access the kingdom of God, the blessings promised to Abraham.

This is a framework, you can easily flesh out the details. Shout if you have a problem.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Please state the different types of baptism, and where they are explained in the Bible. Many thanks.

There's baptism, which is referenced in Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-7, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 3:21, and many other places.

Scripture also speaks of a baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is St. John the Baptist says will come with the One who will come after him, it is found in all three Synoptics in Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, and Luke 3:16. Jesus mentions it again in Acts 1:4-5 in reference to the outpouring of the Spirit mentioned in the 2nd chapter of the Acts, it is then mentioned again in Acts 11:16 in reference to what took place at Cornelius' house (the 10th chapter of the Acts) and on Pentecost in the upper room (again the 2nd chapter of the Acts). At no point is baptism with the Holy Spirit identified with anything other than the public outpouring of the Spirit, the first time on Pentecost, and the second at Cornelius' house. No other experience, phenomenon, or thing is ever identified as a baptism with the Holy Spirit except these two events, recorded down by St. Luke in his Acts of the Apostles.

Scripture also uses the word baptism either by analogy, such as saying that the Israelites were baptized "into Moses by the cloud and the sea" (1 Corinthians 10:2), or where Christ speaks of undergoing His passion as a "baptism" (Mark 10:38); further it is used in reference to tevilah, most clearly in Mark 7:4, and also what St. John the Baptist was doing in the Jordan, calling people to come and receive a washing (baptism) of repentance in anticipation and readiness of the coming of the Messiah; in the Acts of the Apostles we encounter followers of John who were not yet Christians and had not received Christian baptism, namely Apollos before he was taught by Priscilla and Aquila as per Acts 18:25, and Acts 19:2-7.

There is every reason to understand that "baptism", as used in a Christian context in the New Testament, means baptism, in the usual, normal, sense--unqualified in any way, such as in Acts 8 where Philip baptizes the Ethiopian eunuch, the eunuch does not need to ask "what kind of baptism?" but says, "Look, see, here is some water" because "baptism" could to people living in then, and in culture and context of the time, understand baptism to mean baptism, washing [in water]; and that this specific washing, in a Christian context has the meaning found within that context.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

def

Member
Site Supporter
Oct 13, 2010
584
62
✟89,770.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Repentance, changing of mind is a two step process.

First the candidate acknowledges the futility of serving the world.

Then baptism is open to him. The sea opens and he is fed bread from heaven. All are fed with Christ, but not all profited. Those who believed have been born again.

They need this process to access the kingdom of God, the blessings promised to Abraham.

This is a framework, you can easily flesh out the details. Shout if you have a problem.
"repent, believe, born again, enter the kingdom" is what you are saying. And, I agree.

Jesus and Nicodemus were discussing the born again (second birth) event. It is hard to believe Jesus was teaching to a Pharisee about repentance, who is strict in obeying the law. A Pharisee, though, believes in afterlife. So, when Jesus brought out another life, Nicodemus zeroed in on it.

Flesh gives life to flesh (first birth). The Spirit gives life to the spirit (second birth). The spirit comes alive, you can hear it (verse 8).
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"repent, believe, born again, enter the kingdom" is what you are saying. And, I agree.

Jesus and Nicodemus were discussing the born again (second birth) event. It is hard to believe Jesus was teaching to a Pharisee about repentance, who is strict in obeying the law. A Pharisee, though, believes in afterlife. So, when Jesus brought out another life, Nicodemus zeroed in on it.

Flesh gives life to flesh (first birth). The Spirit gives life to the spirit (second birth). The spirit comes alive, you can hear it (verse 8).

Matthew 6
24"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Luke 6
14Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.


Joshua learnt from God, ate the bread of heaven, drank from the Rock, AFTER baptism, and abandoned Mammon to follow God, both he and his family.

The others wanted to go back to Egypt, and with them God was not pleased and swore on His Name that they would never enter His rest (Kingdom).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
One’s biblical theology can be no better than the methods he uses to interpret Scripture."

Is this a surprise? One's understanding regarding any subject is only as good as his reading comprehension, as well.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
First, there is no reference anywhere in the passage to "the elect" as defined by Calvinism.. Jesus says whoever. Secondly, Jesus is clearly spelling out details of how a person becomes born again as Nicodemus asks for further information... Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” John 3:9

Notice the number of times Jesus used the word BELIEVE to show Nicodemus that this was the necessary factor which resulted in one being born again, being condemned or not condemned.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Again, verse 8 is not a stand alone verse.



Was Nicodemus asking how he could be saved? No, he wasn't. He asked, "how could this be"? How could it be that a man could be born again? That was his question, and Jesus answers him in 7-8.

Nicodemus understood how to obey the law better than anyone. He knew how to "do", as most around the Church today do, but few know how to live by faith. Few approach Christ by faith. Countless masses attempt to approach Him by works. They read the Bible as if it were a checklist. They've reduced it to such. However, the Bible is a book about God's actions. He is the main actor in the story of redemption.
 
Upvote 0