how to assimilate all of evolution into a literal 7 day creation

drich0150

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You might ask who cares or why does this matter?

Background: I was an active member here till they pulled the atheist outreach, some years back. as I do some of my best work answering atheist questions. (last 10 or so years) a lot of time these question center around creation versus evolution or just in the creation narrative itself. questions or paradoxes like who did adam's children marry or where did the city of nod come from/where cain fled after killing abel. And the big one how can any of the creation narrative square with evolution???

What if I could tell you, you could answer these questions without changing one letter of the creation narrative (genesis 1-5) and square everyting with what has already been written and even assimilated the whole of the evolution into the 7 day creation.. Now understand this is not gap theory nor any other anything that is not already in the bible. Again this does not thing to add or take anything from the bible away. I simply point out how and where we have been reading genesis wrong for a very long long time.

First we must all understand there were never any original book chapter or verse denotations. However all translations with these denotations ends genesis chapter 1 on day six. This where chapter two picks up, on the beginning of day seven and day 7 carries it (the end of the 7 day creation narrative over to verse 4. I don't know why they did this and cut chapter 1 short of the whole of creation other than to say to start out where they chose to start without a jewish understanding of storytelling would make the start of chapter two seem awkward and as if it we missed a line or two. The Jewish understand of storytelling would start with the author giving a complete overview (7 day creation) and then come back and say now between this and this, this detail happened, so as to frame perspective and give a time line. this allows the storyteller to go off in many different direction at once if need be (when you give the time line first and reference back to it.)

Now if you were reading this narrative without book chapter and verse telling you where a thought begins and ends, the natural break would be to read through till day 7. (establishing the storyteller time line) which again would complete the 7 day creation narrative.

If you do this, chapter two's new beginning @ verse 4 can start out a little confusing. All one need do is keep in mind there are actually two different things being discussed here Chapter 1 a 7 day account of creation and chapter 2 a garden only creation account. This is where we separate ourselves from a traditional reading. Most assume or even teach chapter 2 is a second creation account. This is not true. if it were the atheist point out a large number of inconsistencies when we view chapter two as a broader or more detailed over all 7 day creation/retelling.. case in point, chapter two has man/adam being created on 3 day and chapter 1 says day 6.. ect. if chapter 2 had anything to do with the narrative of chapter one we would have an inconsistent no matter how you explain it.

However if you look at how the new beginning of chapter 2 reads you will note chapter two is a different account all together.

So chapter starts:
4 This is history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, (this is a history of the creation of Adam and Eve, "They." which again is different than what happened on the creation of everything else.) in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, (IN or On the day God created the Heaven and the earth God starts chapter 2's garden project on day one) 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. (So this marks the end of the garden project. "before any plant because no rain which is late day 3, but after God made the ground which is early day 3") because mid day day three is when the plants outside the garden where made. and remember all of this was done before then.

So from sometime mid late day, day 1 which was the start for the garden project, to mid day 3 which ear marks the completion. everything that follows in chapter 2:4-25 is a garen only narrative. Meaning everything chapter two records and the order in which it records is seperate from the rest of creation. Chapter two is garden only. That means Adam the man which God breathed a living soul into on day 1 to day 3 and was placed in the garden per verse 7, was different from "Man made in the image of God" per chapter 1 day 6 outside the garden... two different creations of man. the one we know as Adam was still the first as he was made on day 2ish, verse man made in the image of God on day 6.

Now what does this mean? it means all the paradoxes that plagued the garden narritive because adam and eve where the only people created to this point go away. Meaning who did Adam's children marry and were given off to marry, where did the different races come from if we were all descendants of one race, where did the city of 'nod' come from/the city Cain fled to after killing abel. and on and on and on concerning any diversity or people adam and eve or their children interacted with.

Now like this or not the only alternative is to say Adam was day 3 man and day six man being the same guy, is to say the bible is in error, and then we have to accept incest to explain all the questions that the next 3 chapters create concerning the other people or we have to speak where the bible is silent and create outside the garden man apart from what the bible says. or we can simply accept day three man which was given a soul and placed in the garden was separate from day six man created out side the garden who was made in the image of God. Note the bible does not say day 6 man was given a soul just that he was made in the image of God/compatible with Adam's children. (as per chapter 5:1) As it says adam too was made in the image of God, but again according to chapter 2 was given a soul. To which Day six man was never given a soul. (however later we learn the Sons of Adam pass tis soul on to their children through the doctrine of Traducianism ) So day 6 man has a spirit, but no soul. Adam day 2ish man soul, spirit made in the image of God/complete package. (Also note we are all descendants of Adam per the purge in Gen 10/the flood)

This reading also means that chapter two and chapter 3 are not in chronological order. meaning the events of chapter three did not happen right after chapter two. Again chapter two is the beginning of the garden narrative and chapter three is the end like two book ends, but if you remember the beginning of chapter 2, starts day one and the end happens some time mid day 3 (after land but before plants). So this means if chapter three happened right after chapter 2 Adam and Eve would have been expelled from the garden mid day day 3 or 4... before creation was even complete...

At the very least we can point out that the typical garden narrative is wrong. that chapter 2 and 3 are not consecutive events nor even are they chronological events as day 3-7 still have to be complete If we are not adding to scripture. Which means any amount of time could have taken place between the end of chapter two and the beginning of chapter three. it could have been week, month, year or the 100 bazillion years evolution needs for it to take place.

The only thing we know for sure is the end or exodus of the garden happened about 6000 ago as that is how far our 'genealogies' push time outside the garden back to. so YEC's this reading can work for you as well. Now Understand I am not saying you have to believe in evolution for this to work... Again it could have been a week in the garden, but the rest of the world and the evidence does not support this.

Now we as religious people can blindly put out heads in the sand and pretend none of what the world says matters, but our children will not follow us in doing this...lest the "bible BELT' still means something to your kids... but eventually with as much importance the world puts in schooling and collage, they will have to make a decision for themselves.

I have been working with this age group of fresh/new atheist converts, and this one point in the bible that 'we' collective have no answers for, with our traditional readings. is the key stumbling block for our kids going off to school. Again you may not need to reconcile all of the contradictions in genesis, but our kids, rather most of them will/do. as they receive unimaginable pressure to conform to a non god culture, being pushed by science. Now we have the tools to fortify our faith in light of all 'science' has to say. their biggest point being the time line.. now we need not concern ourselves with time lines as God has place non on creation or time spend IN the garden..

Now some of you probably want to point out the 930 years of Adam in chapter 5.. In most translations it says "Adam lived 130 years and begat seth and then lived another 800 years on this earth."

I simply point out that the time spent with God was garden time, and not life on the earth/post garden life. how can I say this? it is simple. God told Adam and eve the day they ate of the forbidden fruit they would surely die. They did. or rather whatever type of immortal life they lived with God (remember the tree of life was in the garden as well and they had access/could eat from it freely) ended the day they were expelled from the presence of God, and they were sent here saddled with their punishments. (Lest you call God a liar) It is if Death is the common bond we have with Adam but in reverse. He was created to exist with God hand in hand and died to come to this earth, to be punished on this purgatory/earth where Satan reigns. (see the book of Job and the temptations of Christ..) And "we" not created in the garden, are born here slaves to sin get to choose to be with God or suffer the second death in this life, and then Die and move on to the life Adam gave up.

Again for the traditionalist. this really changes nothing as you can adjust the time line any way you see fit as there is not one mentioned. but for the kid stuck between this world and God, you can indeed have a 100% literal reading of genesis 1-5 and still assimilate everything the evolution being taught has to say in between the time of chapter 2 and chapter 3 of genesis.

Again nothing I do here changes the content not one letter of the bible. all it does is take the old way of reading and understanding the first 5 chapters of genesis and reminds us of the natural breaks in the story and has us more closely examine the bits we over look that allow the old thinkers to turn genesis 1 and 2 into one creation account rather than 7 day creation and the garden narrative.

Note.. I've been teaching this for the last 10 or so years and yet have had one single atheist can break this reading. meaning their best efforts to use evolution to circumvent the bible or their use of the bible to try and dismiss this reading as they do with YEC's or traditional jewish time line and reading. they can't despite some really good efforts.

Now the best any of them can say or do is question why I have a need to preserve a literal reading of genesis 1-5 (again because Jesus Himself read and referenced it literally, and if he got that wrong then He wasn't who He claimed to be.) Or call me an anti semite for challenging the traditional jewish reading and interpretation.

Not a bad trade for those who need the time to square what they are being taught with their faith.
 

drich0150

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How does the cursing of Adam and Eve get to, or apply to, the rest of man?

Under this idea the Garden Adam is living in a slower progression of time, while billions of years progress outside the Garden, is that correct?
Well if you look at what science says 'we' or man outside the garden were hunter gatherers.. maybe when God kick A&E out there was a paradigm shift in how food was gathered. or better yet look at the bible Adam/man was not cursed directly the ground was. so when Adam left the garden he brought with him weeds thorns and thistles which polluted the ground and choked out the easy life.

Eve maybe her kids had larger heads.. if you look at some early examples some people and their children were much smaller.. and then the last part i think is the biggest dig even for women now.. You will want to rule your husband but he will rule over you. yu can plainly see how soceity view men ruling women verse how the church has the man over the family/house. I would think this would be an Adam/man with soul household item till after the flood.

Also I don't think Adam lived in a slow progression of time. I simply think He took of the fruit of life and lived like and with God.. I've studied the garden to some degree and a lot of smarter people seem to think it was a humongous place. about 2/3's the size of the US. (some speculate it is or sat on the rich oil fields of the middle east which is why there are no fossils in that area)now imagine living in a confined space for a billion years, even if the space was the whole North American continent... would it not get boring after a while?? think about it day in day out the same thing.. all except for this one last mystery tree in the middle of the garden.. which would explain why Eve and Adam both were in such close proximity to the tree of knowledge when she was tempted. it represented the one last unknown, The last great adventure.. because after a billion or 100 billion years even on foot they saw everything there was to see, did everything there was to do, lived everywhere, ate and tasted everything, except this last bit of forbidden fruit.

The bible speaks of the cool of the evening that God himself like to walk in the garden with Adam so I would assume the time rate would be 1:1 it's just the garden was a sanctuary God Himself protected. This 1:1 time rate also make Adam and Eve seem a little more human in that why would right after being created in the most perfect way possible would they imdeiatly run off and sin? that makes no sense to me unless God created man flawed, even after he saw what he created was good.. Now add a 100 billion years and just about anyone's resolve perfect or not would get the best of them. to me that makes more sense.

But again there is no time line in this narrative unless you need one. 100 billion could just as easily be a million or thousand years, or again if you absolutely need it to be no more than a month.. then you can have that as well. I find it best to leave it open and allow people to plug in the time that they need. As it is explained here it does not matter anymore.
 
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drich0150

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I accept the creation stories of Genesis --- as an interpretive allegory.
good.. finding how to assimilate genesis into your modern life is what this post is all about. Most are brought up with a literal teaching and then have to face off with "higher learning" teachers and peers and can not easily reconcile a literal teaching with a science professor.

However here, you don't have to. You can take back a 7 day creation and still assimilate anything or any evidence that shows the world to be older or younger than we once thought.

You can teach genesis as Jesus Himself taught and supported it. or you can do what you are doing the narrative works for you no matter what you believe, and it still cleans out all the supposed contradictions and paradoxes doubters bring up.
 
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1213

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God told Adam and eve the day they ate of the forbidden fruit they would surely die.

Actually, if we are accurate, God told:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17

Meaning, with death you shall die. This “life” seems to be the first death. And people are expelled to this death, after what Adam and Eve did. And Jesus came to rescue people from this death.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 4:24

Interesting thing also abut creation is, in Genesis 1, it is Elohim who creates and in Genesis 2 it is Yahweh who forms. So literally Genesis 2 is not about creation, but about forming things.


In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:1

God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 1:27


Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Yahweh God planted a garden eastward, in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Genesis 2:7-8

It may be that when God created in Genesis 1 man, it was Jesus, who is the image of God, according to the Bible:

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible

God, the firstborn of all creation.

Colossians 1:14-

And then Jesus is maybe actually Yahweh who later formed Adam.

But I think it can be also so that Genesis 2 is just more accurately about the day when man was created and about planting the garden.
 
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JIMINZ

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All of the six days of creation and rest on the seventh can be understood to be a literal accounting of the actual events depicted.

There isn't anything to suggest an evolution during this six day period.

The amount of time Adam was in the Garden no one knows, if you also take a literal understanding of the account of Adams being formed from the dust of the ground and his being expelled from the Garden for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they you have to understand Adam only spent 1 day in the Garden.

I personally do not believe, in the Garden Time existed as we account it in our daily lives.....A literal passage of 24 hrs.

My belief is, Time and the passage of it was outside the Garden, therefore we can account for the passage of Time by the use of a Geological Clock.

We know from Geological records, it took millions of years for what we now see to have Evolved into what we see today.

This does not include the Theory that different species also Evolved during that same period of Time into what we see today, because there is the literal account of the Creation of species during the six day period of Creation.

Adam was then expelled from the Garden, and time for man and his NOW aging process to begin.

I do not believe there was any need for the passage of Time a literal 24 hr. period while Adam was in the Garden, he was beyond that having been formed in the image and likeness of God, if he had not sinned, he would still be in the Garden, because there was no death until sin entered the world, and we would be in the Garden as well as Living Souls.

The Geological happenings outside the Garden have absolutely no bearing on what transpired during the Creation, and the Time spent in the Garden by Adam.

The Geological happenings outside the Garden are the Natural physical processes God put into motion upon His Creation of the Land Water, Sky these processes which He knew would take Millennia to accomplish, therefore He (God) sequestered the Garden where Adam could live, for Gods' purpose on Creation was to have fellowship with man.

We see this same Process taking place today, in the Erosion of the Land, nothing has changed sense the Creation, all is as it has always been.
 
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Gottservant

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This is the most devout reading I have come across, for Genesis.

I simply add that intially the Earth revolved around the Sun very slowly, hence the days covering the time necessary.

And secondly I add that it was God speeding the days up, out of mercy for those in the garden,, given that the chosen could not express their salvation (as they did not "know" it).

Thanks so much for putting this together: it is great stuff.
 
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mark kennedy

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You reconcile the creation narrative by understanding evolution is a phenomenon, not a law of science demanding universal common ancestry. The living creatures are fully, mature and procreation capable, evolution starts there. The narrative can be taken chronological except the creation of Adam and Eve was revisited to expand the detail. Adam was created day 6. Problem solved
 
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JackRT

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I simply add that intially the Earth revolved around the Sun very slowly, hence the days covering the time necessary.

In the distant past the earth revolved much more rapidly in the neighbourhood of 4 to 6 hours. Due to gravitational tidal friction we have been slowing ever since. We are still slowing at a measured rate of a few milliseconds per year.
 
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drich0150

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Actually, if we are accurate, God told:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17
I don't speak 15th century english fluently so I use a modern translation. the reason being is people tend to find meaning in the obscurity of the dialect, for instance: 17 But you must not eat from the tree that gives knowledge about good and evil. If you eat fruit from that tree, on that day you will certainly die!” I don't know what dying thou dost die means but i certainly understand that the day you eat this fruit you will die.

from the latter I made that point when I explain Adam's 930 years. Meaning Adam died the day he ate the forbidden fruit died 'went to his after life'/expelled from the garden and live 930 outside the garden (This 'hell' being life away from God outside the garden) so again Adam died/lost immortality was sent to live here. then lived 930 years on THIS EARTH.

Meaning, with death you shall die. This “life” seems to be the first death.
yes but for Adam the After life/His first Life was with God, then was HIS FIRST Death, and after life.

And people are expelled to this death, after what Adam and Eve did. And Jesus came to rescue people from this death.
Jesus did not come to save us from our first death. It is our second life Jesus came to give.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 4:24
this does not change with the reading I presented.

Interesting thing also abut creation is, in Genesis 1, it is Elohim who creates and in Genesis 2 it is Yahweh who forms. So literally Genesis 2 is not about creation, but about forming things.


In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:1

God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 1:27
Elohim is the word or the generic title of God, which can be used in the generic sense like Roman elohim or the one true elohim.


Yahweh God formed
man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Yahweh God planted a garden eastward, in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:7-8

It may be that when God created in Genesis 1 man, it was Jesus, who is the image of God, according to the Bible:

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible

God, the firstborn of all creation.

Colossians 1:14-
the problem with that understanding is the word that we translate 'first born' when pertaining to Jesus means "created before creation."

As I pointed out chapter 2 is a mid creation event.
Meaning Christ was born before creation was started, and even John 1:1 attest to Jesus being the one who actually enacted the will of the father. So Jesus was alive well and fully God at the point where creation begins if as stated by John enacted the will of the father durning creation.. God says let their be light Jesus flipped the main breaker ect...

1 Before the world began, the Word was there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was there with God in the beginning.3 Everything was made through him, and nothing was made without him.4 In him there was life, and that life was a light for the people of the world. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not defeated it.


And then Jesus is maybe actually Yahweh who later formed Adam.
"the word" of John1:1 may indeed refer to "The word" not suitable for man to utter which is why Yahweh was actually written Yhwh (without vowels)

But I think it can be also so that Genesis 2 is just more accurately about the day when man was created and about planting the garden.
If you read Genesis two it tells you exactly what it is about. It was the creation of adam/man created with a soul being placed in the garden to work it his duties in the garden life in the garden and the creation of woman. The what is less important that the when. again genesis 2 was placed between day one and day three while all of that was going on.
 
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drich0150

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You reconcile the creation narrative by understanding evolution is a phenomenon, not a law of science demanding universal common ancestry. The living creatures are fully, mature and procreation capable, evolution starts there. The narrative can be taken chronological except the creation of Adam and Eve was revisited to expand the detail. Adam was created day 6. Problem solved

Not according to Genesis 2 4&5
It says these events happened between the day God the sky and the earth, but before there was plants...

So we go back to genesis 1 and find out what day the earth and sky were created which was day chapter 1 verse 1 day 1. and then we look to see when land was created but not any plants. so verse 10 land was created fist 1/2 day 3 and plants 2nd /12 so..

When chapter 2 verse 4 and 5 says these things happened between day 1 and the 1st half of day three it means everything in chapter two was started day 1 after earth and sky and everything was complete by day 3.5

Now what is the first thing God is said to have created (the garden) so day one maybe day 2 then man, and placed him in the garden maybe day two... because again everything in chapter two according to verses 4 and 5 of chapter 2 is done by the 1st 1/2 of day 3...

Now in Gen 1in the creation of the world man is clearly 2nd 1/2 of day six and no where is it said this version of man has a soul like Adam/day 2 man nor does it say anywhere day 6 man was placed in the garden. Again only by chater 2 do we have adam day 2 man being placed in the bible.

Now that said if you believe day 6 man is adam fine.. just know your beliefs are not consistent with scripture aa it leaves many unanswerable questions and paradoxes with what is wriiten in chapters 3-5. Again if you do want to give an account or feel like you do not have to defend the written word as it is penned down then again I am not here to challenge what you 'know.'

I am here for those who need to reconcile a 7 day creation with a science model that previously said 7 days of creation was not possible. and for those who need to know who Adam's children married and had kids with.. where did the city of nod come from if it were just adam and his family. how then was cain being banished to nod if the whole city was made up of the sons and daughters of Adam? where did the bio diversity come from if adam's children only had each other t mate with... and on and on..

This one simple observation absolves all of that. Day 2 man created to work in the garden. Day 6 man no soul made to populate the earth.
 
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drich0150

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All of the six days of creation and rest on the seventh can be understood to be a literal accounting of the actual events depicted.
that is my point.

There isn't anything to suggest an evolution during this six day period.
there doesn't need to be the evolution process outside the garden could have started at the end of the seventh day, and progressed up unit about 6000 years ago where adam was expelled from the garden.
The amount of time Adam was in the Garden no one knows, if you also take a literal understanding of the account of Adams being formed from the dust of the ground and his being expelled from the Garden for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they you have to understand Adam only spent 1 day in the Garden.
again not possible if you read and consider gen 2:4-6.. in that the garden account starts day 1 and ends first 1/2 of day 3. if Adam spent one day in the garden then where did eve come from? also Adam and eve's explution would be no later than day 4 or day 5 of creation. How could they survive if the earth itself could not yet full support life?

My point in this reading is to point out there is no time line and more importantly genesis 2 is not in chronological order with chapter one or 3. Genesis 2 is a spin off anew series of events that use chapter 1 to frame the time period between day one and day 3.

I personally do not believe, in the Garden Time existed as we account it in our daily lives.....A literal passage of 24 hrs.
as Do I because it was written in gen 3 that God like to walk with Adam in the cool of the evening.

My belief is, Time and the passage of it was outside the Garden, therefore we can account for the passage of Time by the use of a Geological Clock.
Indeed. I simply point out the tree of life was not forbidden fruit and Adam was immortal in the garden with God up until he sinned.

We know from Geological records, it took millions of years for what we now see to have Evolved into what we see today.
Indeed I simply put the 7 days of creation on top of that 100 bazillion years evolution needs.

This does not include the Theory that different species also Evolved during that same period of Time into what we see today, because there is the literal account of the Creation of species during the six day period of Creation.
Two points here 1 When God say he made birds one day 6 one could understand it that he made the seed that ultimately would become a bird. or you can go super literal and actually define the hebrew word for bird.. a bird is a flying animal/non insect. A bat could be a bird for example.. The pont the ancient jews did not classify life the way we do now. their usage of the word is far more generalized whales and alligators could be considered 'fish.' So just because the bible say tree it is not tied to genus, phylum and species when we say 'tree,' a mustard plant was a tree, when in fact it is not a tree as we know it but a bush.
Adam was then expelled from the Garden, and time for man and his NOW aging process to begin.
agree once expelled his clock on his 930 years begins.

I do not believe there was any need for the passage of Time a literal 24 hr. period while Adam was in the Garden, he was beyond that having been formed in the image and likeness of God, if he had not sinned, he would still be in the Garden, because there was no death until sin entered the world, and we would be in the Garden as well as Living Souls.
speculation. in truth the bible does not say much. So i do not place much need to know on time outside of what is actually framed out.
The Geological happenings outside the Garden have absolutely no bearing on what transpired during the Creation, and the Time spent in the Garden by Adam.
agree

The Geological happenings outside the Garden are the Natural physical processes God put into motion upon His Creation of the Land Water, Sky these processes which He knew would take Millennia to accomplish, therefore He (God) sequestered the Garden where Adam could live, for Gods' purpose on Creation was to have fellowship with man.
YES! until the outside world caught up to the garden world which all went down about 6000 years ago, so say the genealogies of the YEC's. The world is not 6000 years old... Adam was expelled from an eternity (figuratively speaking) in the garden 6000 years ago which starts the genealogies.

We see this same Process taking place today, in the Erosion of the Land, nothing has changed sense the Creation, all is as it has always been.
yes!
 
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mark kennedy

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Not according to Genesis 2 4&5
It says these events happened between the day God the sky and the earth, but before there was plants...

So we go back to genesis 1 and find out what day the earth and sky were created which was day chapter 1 verse 1 day 1. and then we look to see when land was created but not any plants. so verse 10 land was created fist 1/2 day 3 and plants 2nd /12 so..

When chapter 2 verse 4 and 5 says these things happened between day 1 and the 1st half of day three it means everything in chapter two was started day 1 after earth and sky and everything was complete by day 3.5

Now what is the first thing God is said to have created (the garden) so day one maybe day 2 then man, and placed him in the garden maybe day two... because again everything in chapter two according to verses 4 and 5 of chapter 2 is done by the 1st 1/2 of day 3...

Now in Gen 1in the creation of the world man is clearly 2nd 1/2 of day six and no where is it said this version of man has a soul like Adam/day 2 man nor does it say anywhere day 6 man was placed in the garden. Again only by chater 2 do we have adam day 2 man being placed in the bible.

Now that said if you believe day 6 man is adam fine.. just know your beliefs are not consistent with scripture aa it leaves many unanswerable questions and paradoxes with what is wriiten in chapters 3-5. Again if you do want to give an account or feel like you do not have to defend the written word as it is penned down then again I am not here to challenge what you 'know.'

I am here for those who need to reconcile a 7 day creation with a science model that previously said 7 days of creation was not possible. and for those who need to know who Adam's children married and had kids with.. where did the city of nod come from if it were just adam and his family. how then was cain being banished to nod if the whole city was made up of the sons and daughters of Adam? where did the bio diversity come from if adam's children only had each other t mate with... and on and on..

This one simple observation absolves all of that. Day 2 man created to work in the garden. Day 6 man no soul made to populate the earth.
This is the same thing they do with Bible prophecy, twisting everything around in pretzels, its unnessacary. Genesis has three words for God's work in creation, translated created, made and set. Created is a brand new creation, made is from preexisting material and set is basically an adjustment. There is the account of the original creation Gen. 1:1, Creation week which runs from Gen. 1:2 through Gen. 2:3, then from Gen. 2:4 a special revelation concerning Adam and Eve explains in detail from the creation of Adam and Eve through the planting of the Garden of Eden leading up to the temptation and fall in chapter 3. When it says this is an account of the creation of the heavens and the earth that term is used only once in connection with the creation of the natural order, Gen 1:1. After that it is used only once in connection with the creation of life in general Gen 1:21. It is used three times in connection in verse 25 indicating the creation of man is the heart of the emphasis. Now the second part of Gen 2:4 says it's an account of things made which was creation week. That's how I know the sun, moon and stars were already created day four, the word there is translated made.

Now there is a special account starting with 2:4 of the domesticated plants God planted in Eden, he just didn't give them enough water to spring up. Yea it was most likely planted when plant life was created but it just sat there until Adam and Eve were created.

Understanding the Genesis account like most passages in Scripture require a sound exposition, little more.
 
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drich0150

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This is the same thing they do with Bible prophecy, twisting everything around in pretzels, its unnessacary. Genesis has three words for God's work in creation, translated created, made and set. Created is a brand new creation, made is from preexisting material and set is basically an adjustment. There is the account of the original creation Gen. 1:1, Creation week which runs from Gen. 1:2 through Gen. 2:3, then from Gen. 2:4 a special revelation concerning Adam and Eve explains in detail from the creation of Adam and Eve through the planting of the Garden of Eden leading up to the temptation and fall in chapter 3. When it says this is an account of the creation of the heavens and the earth that term is used only once in connection with the creation of the natural order, Gen 1:1. After that it is used only once in connection with the creation of life in general Gen 1:21. It is used three times in connection in verse 25 indicating the creation of man is the heart of the emphasis.

Either you do not see the irony in your own statement or you did not take the time to read the op. It seems you think I've gone some where in my interpretation other than what you considered a 'sound exposition.'

Truth is I simply read what was on page using a common/modern english bible. most of what you've said here repeats what I said. however the time frame you got completely wrong because you've omitted 1/3 of the text provided in genesis 2:4 to frame your guesstimation after creation.

So again (look who is and has been quoting scripture and look who is using his own authority in our back and fourth)
Genesis 2:
4 This is the story about the creation of the sky and the earth. This is apart of the 7 day creation narrative/the same earth and sky story

This is what happened when the Lord God made the earth and the sky. These events started day 1 because God made the earth and sky day one and the line literally says this is what happened on the day God made the earth and sky. this opens or marks the beginning of the story about to be told.

5 This was before there were plants on the earth. Nothing was growing in the fields because the Lord God had not yet made it rain on the earth, and there was no one to care for the plants. This is where The story ends mid day 3. we know the story ends this day/time because it book ends, the beginning in verse 4 frames out a beginning with the word 'THIS' and the ends with the word "THIS." As in the following happened between THIS beginning and THIS End. Or between the Day the Heavens and Earth were made and end on THiS day that Land was made but before plants as there was no rain or man to till the ground.

So then When did God create land? 1st half of day 3 was land second half of day three was plants.. So the genesis two narrative begins on day one and end the first half of day 3.

I nor you don't need some special book you only get with membership with a given church to understand what is written on page here. The Spirit will guide you if you simply ask. Nothing I said here come from an external/guide book source it is simply taken what is written in plain english and a general understanding of how OT jews told stories. I took this and applied it to the genesis one 7 day account to frame out what genesis two says happened in the time frame genesis two provides. Nothing added nothing taken away all my work is shown. if you have a problem with the logic of a specific detail highlight it and discuss. try to avoid discarding the whole thing just because it is different.

Now the second part of Gen 2:4 says it's an account of things made which was creation week. That's how I know the sun, moon and stars were already created day four, the word there is translated made.

Now there is a special account starting with 2:4 of the domesticated plants God planted in Eden, he just didn't give them enough water to spring up. Yea it was most likely planted when plant life was created but it just sat there until Adam and Eve were created.

Understanding the Genesis account like most passages in Scripture require a sound exposition, little more.

Wow.. now the rest of this mess you literally made up to fill the gaps in your "sound exposition." You literally spoke where the bible was silent. meaning all of this information is nowhere to be found in the bible but is critical in keeping your explanation cohesive. not to mention when yu were guesstimating the time frame of genesis 2 you omitted 1/3 of what was written in the beginning of Genesis 2 when you pronounced it had to be after the 7 day creation! Well of curse if you cut out 30% of a text you will get a different answer than what I did.

Now that in mind.. what did I add? what did I take away? all I did was frame out what was on page as it was literally written down. word by word not skipping anything. simple reinforced and stood by what was already on page.
 
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mark kennedy

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Either you do not see the irony in your own statement or you did not take the time to read the op. It seems you think I've gone some where in my interpretation other than what you considered a 'sound exposition.'

After better then tens years of doing expositions in Genesis, related passages in Job, Isaiah and the New Testament witness I know what an exposition should look like. I've also did exegetical studies of the principle words used in the text, so I know what is lost in translation and how to discern the contour of the original Hebrew. This is not complicated if you let the text guide you, the passage is adequate to interpret itself if you will let it.

Truth is I simply read what was on page using a common/modern english bible. most of what you've said here repeats what I said. however the time frame you got completely wrong because you've omitted 1/3 of the text provided in genesis 2:4 to frame your guesstimation after creation.

Before we start majoring in the minors here let's step back and see what we are dealing with, the account of the creation of the heavens and the earth (universe) Gen. 1:1. From Genesis 1:2 through 2:3 It's the account of creation week. The rest of Gen. 2 is an account of Adam and Eve immediately following creation, centered on a garden eastward in Eden. I will be delighted to discuss what is going on in 2:4 if you would be good enough to understand that the account of the Garden of Eden and the creation of Eve are subsequent to creation week, quite trying is equivocate the planting (not creation) of the Garden with creation week it simply doesn't fit in the pigeon hole your trying to make for it. This can all be readily discerned from a cursory reading of the text, no special insights required.

So again (look who is and has been quoting scripture and look who is using his own authority in our back and fourth)

You seem to think this is a contest, it's not, I know how do do an exposition of this text but let's see what you have here.
Genesis 2:
4 This is the story about the creation of the sky and the earth.
This is apart of the 7 day creation narrative/the same earth and sky story

What kind of a paraphrase did you get that from?
This is what happened when the Lord God made the earth and the sky. These events started day 1 because God made the earth and sky day one and the line literally says this is what happened on the day God made the earth and sky. this opens or marks the beginning of the story about to be told

No, the passage is actually saying that this is a continuation of the account of the original creation and the previous account of creation. The passage describing the Garden of Eden is subsequent to the seventh day Sabbath, you might have noticed it at the top of the chapter. It's so important there is even a special commandment commemorating this day following Go's work in Creation. It also marks the timeframe, this is obviously subsequent to creation week,
 
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mark kennedy

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I accept the creation stories of Genesis --- as an interpretive allegory.
Then what about the rest of the first five books of the OT, is the rest historical narratives or interpretive allegory? How about the five historical narratives in the New Testamenr, are those interpretive allegory to?
 
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SkyWriting

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You might ask who cares or why does this matter?

Background: I was an active member here till they pulled the atheist outreach, some years back. as I do some of my best work answering atheist questions. (last 10 or so years) a lot of time these question center around creation versus evolution or just in the creation narrative itself. questions or paradoxes like who did adam's children marry or where did the city of nod come from/where cain fled after killing abel. And the big one how can any of the creation narrative square with evolution???

What if I could tell you, you could answer these questions without changing one letter of the creation narrative (genesis 1-5) and square everyting with what has already been written and even assimilated the whole of the evolution into the 7 day creation.. Now understand this is not gap theory nor any other anything that is not already in the bible. Again this does not thing to add or take anything from the bible away. I simply point out how and where we have been reading genesis wrong for a very long long time.

First we must all understand there were never any original book chapter or verse denotations. However all translations with these denotations ends genesis chapter 1 on day six. This where chapter two picks up, on the beginning of day seven and day 7 carries it (the end of the 7 day creation narrative over to verse 4. I don't know why they did this and cut chapter 1 short of the whole of creation other than to say to start out where they chose to start without a jewish understanding of storytelling would make the start of chapter two seem awkward and as if it we missed a line or two. The Jewish understand of storytelling would start with the author giving a complete overview (7 day creation) and then come back and say now between this and this, this detail happened, so as to frame perspective and give a time line. this allows the storyteller to go off in many different direction at once if need be (when you give the time line first and reference back to it.)

Now if you were reading this narrative without book chapter and verse telling you where a thought begins and ends, the natural break would be to read through till day 7. (establishing the storyteller time line) which again would complete the 7 day creation narrative.

If you do this, chapter two's new beginning @ verse 4 can start out a little confusing. All one need do is keep in mind there are actually two different things being discussed here Chapter 1 a 7 day account of creation and chapter 2 a garden only creation account. This is where we separate ourselves from a traditional reading. Most assume or even teach chapter 2 is a second creation account. This is not true. if it were the atheist point out a large number of inconsistencies when we view chapter two as a broader or more detailed over all 7 day creation/retelling.. case in point, chapter two has man/adam being created on 3 day and chapter 1 says day 6.. ect. if chapter 2 had anything to do with the narrative of chapter one we would have an inconsistent no matter how you explain it.

However if you look at how the new beginning of chapter 2 reads you will note chapter two is a different account all together.

So chapter starts:
4 This is history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, (this is a history of the creation of Adam and Eve, "They." which again is different than what happened on the creation of everything else.) in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, (IN or On the day God created the Heaven and the earth God starts chapter 2's garden project on day one) 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. (So this marks the end of the garden project. "before any plant because no rain which is late day 3, but after God made the ground which is early day 3") because mid day day three is when the plants outside the garden where made. and remember all of this was done before then.

So from sometime mid late day, day 1 which was the start for the garden project, to mid day 3 which ear marks the completion. everything that follows in chapter 2:4-25 is a garen only narrative. Meaning everything chapter two records and the order in which it records is seperate from the rest of creation. Chapter two is garden only. That means Adam the man which God breathed a living soul into on day 1 to day 3 and was placed in the garden per verse 7, was different from "Man made in the image of God" per chapter 1 day 6 outside the garden... two different creations of man. the one we know as Adam was still the first as he was made on day 2ish, verse man made in the image of God on day 6.

Now what does this mean? it means all the paradoxes that plagued the garden narritive because adam and eve where the only people created to this point go away. Meaning who did Adam's children marry and were given off to marry, where did the different races come from if we were all descendants of one race, where did the city of 'nod' come from/the city Cain fled to after killing abel. and on and on and on concerning any diversity or people adam and eve or their children interacted with.

Now like this or not the only alternative is to say Adam was day 3 man and day six man being the same guy, is to say the bible is in error, and then we have to accept incest to explain all the questions that the next 3 chapters create concerning the other people or we have to speak where the bible is silent and create outside the garden man apart from what the bible says. or we can simply accept day three man which was given a soul and placed in the garden was separate from day six man created out side the garden who was made in the image of God. Note the bible does not say day 6 man was given a soul just that he was made in the image of God/compatible with Adam's children. (as per chapter 5:1) As it says adam too was made in the image of God, but again according to chapter 2 was given a soul. To which Day six man was never given a soul. (however later we learn the Sons of Adam pass tis soul on to their children through the doctrine of Traducianism ) So day 6 man has a spirit, but no soul. Adam day 2ish man soul, spirit made in the image of God/complete package. (Also note we are all descendants of Adam per the purge in Gen 10/the flood)

This reading also means that chapter two and chapter 3 are not in chronological order. meaning the events of chapter three did not happen right after chapter two. Again chapter two is the beginning of the garden narrative and chapter three is the end like two book ends, but if you remember the beginning of chapter 2, starts day one and the end happens some time mid day 3 (after land but before plants). So this means if chapter three happened right after chapter 2 Adam and Eve would have been expelled from the garden mid day day 3 or 4... before creation was even complete...

At the very least we can point out that the typical garden narrative is wrong. that chapter 2 and 3 are not consecutive events nor even are they chronological events as day 3-7 still have to be complete If we are not adding to scripture. Which means any amount of time could have taken place between the end of chapter two and the beginning of chapter three. it could have been week, month, year or the 100 bazillion years evolution needs for it to take place.

The only thing we know for sure is the end or exodus of the garden happened about 6000 ago as that is how far our 'genealogies' push time outside the garden back to. so YEC's this reading can work for you as well. Now Understand I am not saying you have to believe in evolution for this to work... Again it could have been a week in the garden, but the rest of the world and the evidence does not support this.

Now we as religious people can blindly put out heads in the sand and pretend none of what the world says matters, but our children will not follow us in doing this...lest the "bible BELT' still means something to your kids... but eventually with as much importance the world puts in schooling and collage, they will have to make a decision for themselves.

I have been working with this age group of fresh/new atheist converts, and this one point in the bible that 'we' collective have no answers for, with our traditional readings. is the key stumbling block for our kids going off to school. Again you may not need to reconcile all of the contradictions in genesis, but our kids, rather most of them will/do. as they receive unimaginable pressure to conform to a non god culture, being pushed by science. Now we have the tools to fortify our faith in light of all 'science' has to say. their biggest point being the time line.. now we need not concern ourselves with time lines as God has place non on creation or time spend IN the garden..

Now some of you probably want to point out the 930 years of Adam in chapter 5.. In most translations it says "Adam lived 130 years and begat seth and then lived another 800 years on this earth."

I simply point out that the time spent with God was garden time, and not life on the earth/post garden life. how can I say this? it is simple. God told Adam and eve the day they ate of the forbidden fruit they would surely die. They did. or rather whatever type of immortal life they lived with God (remember the tree of life was in the garden as well and they had access/could eat from it freely) ended the day they were expelled from the presence of God, and they were sent here saddled with their punishments. (Lest you call God a liar) It is if Death is the common bond we have with Adam but in reverse. He was created to exist with God hand in hand and died to come to this earth, to be punished on this purgatory/earth where Satan reigns. (see the book of Job and the temptations of Christ..) And "we" not created in the garden, are born here slaves to sin get to choose to be with God or suffer the second death in this life, and then Die and move on to the life Adam gave up.

Again for the traditionalist. this really changes nothing as you can adjust the time line any way you see fit as there is not one mentioned. but for the kid stuck between this world and God, you can indeed have a 100% literal reading of genesis 1-5 and still assimilate everything the evolution being taught has to say in between the time of chapter 2 and chapter 3 of genesis.

Again nothing I do here changes the content not one letter of the bible. all it does is take the old way of reading and understanding the first 5 chapters of genesis and reminds us of the natural breaks in the story and has us more closely examine the bits we over look that allow the old thinkers to turn genesis 1 and 2 into one creation account rather than 7 day creation and the garden narrative.

Note.. I've been teaching this for the last 10 or so years and yet have had one single atheist can break this reading. meaning their best efforts to use evolution to circumvent the bible or their use of the bible to try and dismiss this reading as they do with YEC's or traditional jewish time line and reading. they can't despite some really good efforts.

Now the best any of them can say or do is question why I have a need to preserve a literal reading of genesis 1-5 (again because Jesus Himself read and referenced it literally, and if he got that wrong then He wasn't who He claimed to be.) Or call me an anti semite for challenging the traditional jewish reading and interpretation.

Not a bad trade for those who need the time to square what they are being taught with their faith.

Adam was not the first man
but was the first to be given
eternal life by God.
 
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JackRT

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So who was the first man? where can we find this in the bible?

From an evolutionary point of view I do not think it possible to identify a "first man" because evolution doesn't happen to an individual but to a population over long periods of time. Anatomically modern humans trace back 200 to 400 thousand years ago. Neandertals trace back much further. Since Neandertal genes are found in most modern human populations we obviously were able to interbreed with them and consequently they must be regarded as human beings as well.
 
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