- Mar 16, 2008
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Background: I was an active member here till they pulled the atheist outreach, some years back. as I do some of my best work answering atheist questions. (last 10 or so years) a lot of time these question center around creation versus evolution or just in the creation narrative itself. questions or paradoxes like who did adam's children marry or where did the city of nod come from/where cain fled after killing abel. And the big one how can any of the creation narrative square with evolution???
What if I could tell you, you could answer these questions without changing one letter of the creation narrative (genesis 1-5) and square everyting with what has already been written and even assimilated the whole of the evolution into the 7 day creation.. Now understand this is not gap theory nor any other anything that is not already in the bible. Again this does not thing to add or take anything from the bible away. I simply point out how and where we have been reading genesis wrong for a very long long time.
First we must all understand there were never any original book chapter or verse denotations. However all translations with these denotations ends genesis chapter 1 on day six. This where chapter two picks up, on the beginning of day seven and day 7 carries it (the end of the 7 day creation narrative over to verse 4. I don't know why they did this and cut chapter 1 short of the whole of creation other than to say to start out where they chose to start without a jewish understanding of storytelling would make the start of chapter two seem awkward and as if it we missed a line or two. The Jewish understand of storytelling would start with the author giving a complete overview (7 day creation) and then come back and say now between this and this, this detail happened, so as to frame perspective and give a time line. this allows the storyteller to go off in many different direction at once if need be (when you give the time line first and reference back to it.)
Now if you were reading this narrative without book chapter and verse telling you where a thought begins and ends, the natural break would be to read through till day 7. (establishing the storyteller time line) which again would complete the 7 day creation narrative.
If you do this, chapter two's new beginning @ verse 4 can start out a little confusing. All one need do is keep in mind there are actually two different things being discussed here Chapter 1 a 7 day account of creation and chapter 2 a garden only creation account. This is where we separate ourselves from a traditional reading. Most assume or even teach chapter 2 is a second creation account. This is not true. if it were the atheist point out a large number of inconsistencies when we view chapter two as a broader or more detailed over all 7 day creation/retelling.. case in point, chapter two has man/adam being created on 3 day and chapter 1 says day 6.. ect. if chapter 2 had anything to do with the narrative of chapter one we would have an inconsistent no matter how you explain it.
However if you look at how the new beginning of chapter 2 reads you will note chapter two is a different account all together.
So chapter starts:
4 This is history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, (this is a history of the creation of Adam and Eve, "They." which again is different than what happened on the creation of everything else.) in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, (IN or On the day God created the Heaven and the earth God starts chapter 2's garden project on day one) 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. (So this marks the end of the garden project. "before any plant because no rain which is late day 3, but after God made the ground which is early day 3") because mid day day three is when the plants outside the garden where made. and remember all of this was done before then.
So from sometime mid late day, day 1 which was the start for the garden project, to mid day 3 which ear marks the completion. everything that follows in chapter 2:4-25 is a garen only narrative. Meaning everything chapter two records and the order in which it records is seperate from the rest of creation. Chapter two is garden only. That means Adam the man which God breathed a living soul into on day 1 to day 3 and was placed in the garden per verse 7, was different from "Man made in the image of God" per chapter 1 day 6 outside the garden... two different creations of man. the one we know as Adam was still the first as he was made on day 2ish, verse man made in the image of God on day 6.
Now what does this mean? it means all the paradoxes that plagued the garden narritive because adam and eve where the only people created to this point go away. Meaning who did Adam's children marry and were given off to marry, where did the different races come from if we were all descendants of one race, where did the city of 'nod' come from/the city Cain fled to after killing abel. and on and on and on concerning any diversity or people adam and eve or their children interacted with.
Now like this or not the only alternative is to say Adam was day 3 man and day six man being the same guy, is to say the bible is in error, and then we have to accept incest to explain all the questions that the next 3 chapters create concerning the other people or we have to speak where the bible is silent and create outside the garden man apart from what the bible says. or we can simply accept day three man which was given a soul and placed in the garden was separate from day six man created out side the garden who was made in the image of God. Note the bible does not say day 6 man was given a soul just that he was made in the image of God/compatible with Adam's children. (as per chapter 5:1) As it says adam too was made in the image of God, but again according to chapter 2 was given a soul. To which Day six man was never given a soul. (however later we learn the Sons of Adam pass tis soul on to their children through the doctrine of Traducianism ) So day 6 man has a spirit, but no soul. Adam day 2ish man soul, spirit made in the image of God/complete package. (Also note we are all descendants of Adam per the purge in Gen 10/the flood)
This reading also means that chapter two and chapter 3 are not in chronological order. meaning the events of chapter three did not happen right after chapter two. Again chapter two is the beginning of the garden narrative and chapter three is the end like two book ends, but if you remember the beginning of chapter 2, starts day one and the end happens some time mid day 3 (after land but before plants). So this means if chapter three happened right after chapter 2 Adam and Eve would have been expelled from the garden mid day day 3 or 4... before creation was even complete...
At the very least we can point out that the typical garden narrative is wrong. that chapter 2 and 3 are not consecutive events nor even are they chronological events as day 3-7 still have to be complete If we are not adding to scripture. Which means any amount of time could have taken place between the end of chapter two and the beginning of chapter three. it could have been week, month, year or the 100 bazillion years evolution needs for it to take place.
The only thing we know for sure is the end or exodus of the garden happened about 6000 ago as that is how far our 'genealogies' push time outside the garden back to. so YEC's this reading can work for you as well. Now Understand I am not saying you have to believe in evolution for this to work... Again it could have been a week in the garden, but the rest of the world and the evidence does not support this.
Now we as religious people can blindly put out heads in the sand and pretend none of what the world says matters, but our children will not follow us in doing this...lest the "bible BELT' still means something to your kids... but eventually with as much importance the world puts in schooling and collage, they will have to make a decision for themselves.
I have been working with this age group of fresh/new atheist converts, and this one point in the bible that 'we' collective have no answers for, with our traditional readings. is the key stumbling block for our kids going off to school. Again you may not need to reconcile all of the contradictions in genesis, but our kids, rather most of them will/do. as they receive unimaginable pressure to conform to a non god culture, being pushed by science. Now we have the tools to fortify our faith in light of all 'science' has to say. their biggest point being the time line.. now we need not concern ourselves with time lines as God has place non on creation or time spend IN the garden..
Now some of you probably want to point out the 930 years of Adam in chapter 5.. In most translations it says "Adam lived 130 years and begat seth and then lived another 800 years on this earth."
I simply point out that the time spent with God was garden time, and not life on the earth/post garden life. how can I say this? it is simple. God told Adam and eve the day they ate of the forbidden fruit they would surely die. They did. or rather whatever type of immortal life they lived with God (remember the tree of life was in the garden as well and they had access/could eat from it freely) ended the day they were expelled from the presence of God, and they were sent here saddled with their punishments. (Lest you call God a liar) It is if Death is the common bond we have with Adam but in reverse. He was created to exist with God hand in hand and died to come to this earth, to be punished on this purgatory/earth where Satan reigns. (see the book of Job and the temptations of Christ..) And "we" not created in the garden, are born here slaves to sin get to choose to be with God or suffer the second death in this life, and then Die and move on to the life Adam gave up.
Again for the traditionalist. this really changes nothing as you can adjust the time line any way you see fit as there is not one mentioned. but for the kid stuck between this world and God, you can indeed have a 100% literal reading of genesis 1-5 and still assimilate everything the evolution being taught has to say in between the time of chapter 2 and chapter 3 of genesis.
Again nothing I do here changes the content not one letter of the bible. all it does is take the old way of reading and understanding the first 5 chapters of genesis and reminds us of the natural breaks in the story and has us more closely examine the bits we over look that allow the old thinkers to turn genesis 1 and 2 into one creation account rather than 7 day creation and the garden narrative.
Note.. I've been teaching this for the last 10 or so years and yet have had one single atheist can break this reading. meaning their best efforts to use evolution to circumvent the bible or their use of the bible to try and dismiss this reading as they do with YEC's or traditional jewish time line and reading. they can't despite some really good efforts.
Now the best any of them can say or do is question why I have a need to preserve a literal reading of genesis 1-5 (again because Jesus Himself read and referenced it literally, and if he got that wrong then He wasn't who He claimed to be.) Or call me an anti semite for challenging the traditional jewish reading and interpretation.
Not a bad trade for those who need the time to square what they are being taught with their faith.
Background: I was an active member here till they pulled the atheist outreach, some years back. as I do some of my best work answering atheist questions. (last 10 or so years) a lot of time these question center around creation versus evolution or just in the creation narrative itself. questions or paradoxes like who did adam's children marry or where did the city of nod come from/where cain fled after killing abel. And the big one how can any of the creation narrative square with evolution???
What if I could tell you, you could answer these questions without changing one letter of the creation narrative (genesis 1-5) and square everyting with what has already been written and even assimilated the whole of the evolution into the 7 day creation.. Now understand this is not gap theory nor any other anything that is not already in the bible. Again this does not thing to add or take anything from the bible away. I simply point out how and where we have been reading genesis wrong for a very long long time.
First we must all understand there were never any original book chapter or verse denotations. However all translations with these denotations ends genesis chapter 1 on day six. This where chapter two picks up, on the beginning of day seven and day 7 carries it (the end of the 7 day creation narrative over to verse 4. I don't know why they did this and cut chapter 1 short of the whole of creation other than to say to start out where they chose to start without a jewish understanding of storytelling would make the start of chapter two seem awkward and as if it we missed a line or two. The Jewish understand of storytelling would start with the author giving a complete overview (7 day creation) and then come back and say now between this and this, this detail happened, so as to frame perspective and give a time line. this allows the storyteller to go off in many different direction at once if need be (when you give the time line first and reference back to it.)
Now if you were reading this narrative without book chapter and verse telling you where a thought begins and ends, the natural break would be to read through till day 7. (establishing the storyteller time line) which again would complete the 7 day creation narrative.
If you do this, chapter two's new beginning @ verse 4 can start out a little confusing. All one need do is keep in mind there are actually two different things being discussed here Chapter 1 a 7 day account of creation and chapter 2 a garden only creation account. This is where we separate ourselves from a traditional reading. Most assume or even teach chapter 2 is a second creation account. This is not true. if it were the atheist point out a large number of inconsistencies when we view chapter two as a broader or more detailed over all 7 day creation/retelling.. case in point, chapter two has man/adam being created on 3 day and chapter 1 says day 6.. ect. if chapter 2 had anything to do with the narrative of chapter one we would have an inconsistent no matter how you explain it.
However if you look at how the new beginning of chapter 2 reads you will note chapter two is a different account all together.
So chapter starts:
4 This is history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, (this is a history of the creation of Adam and Eve, "They." which again is different than what happened on the creation of everything else.) in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, (IN or On the day God created the Heaven and the earth God starts chapter 2's garden project on day one) 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. (So this marks the end of the garden project. "before any plant because no rain which is late day 3, but after God made the ground which is early day 3") because mid day day three is when the plants outside the garden where made. and remember all of this was done before then.
So from sometime mid late day, day 1 which was the start for the garden project, to mid day 3 which ear marks the completion. everything that follows in chapter 2:4-25 is a garen only narrative. Meaning everything chapter two records and the order in which it records is seperate from the rest of creation. Chapter two is garden only. That means Adam the man which God breathed a living soul into on day 1 to day 3 and was placed in the garden per verse 7, was different from "Man made in the image of God" per chapter 1 day 6 outside the garden... two different creations of man. the one we know as Adam was still the first as he was made on day 2ish, verse man made in the image of God on day 6.
Now what does this mean? it means all the paradoxes that plagued the garden narritive because adam and eve where the only people created to this point go away. Meaning who did Adam's children marry and were given off to marry, where did the different races come from if we were all descendants of one race, where did the city of 'nod' come from/the city Cain fled to after killing abel. and on and on and on concerning any diversity or people adam and eve or their children interacted with.
Now like this or not the only alternative is to say Adam was day 3 man and day six man being the same guy, is to say the bible is in error, and then we have to accept incest to explain all the questions that the next 3 chapters create concerning the other people or we have to speak where the bible is silent and create outside the garden man apart from what the bible says. or we can simply accept day three man which was given a soul and placed in the garden was separate from day six man created out side the garden who was made in the image of God. Note the bible does not say day 6 man was given a soul just that he was made in the image of God/compatible with Adam's children. (as per chapter 5:1) As it says adam too was made in the image of God, but again according to chapter 2 was given a soul. To which Day six man was never given a soul. (however later we learn the Sons of Adam pass tis soul on to their children through the doctrine of Traducianism ) So day 6 man has a spirit, but no soul. Adam day 2ish man soul, spirit made in the image of God/complete package. (Also note we are all descendants of Adam per the purge in Gen 10/the flood)
This reading also means that chapter two and chapter 3 are not in chronological order. meaning the events of chapter three did not happen right after chapter two. Again chapter two is the beginning of the garden narrative and chapter three is the end like two book ends, but if you remember the beginning of chapter 2, starts day one and the end happens some time mid day 3 (after land but before plants). So this means if chapter three happened right after chapter 2 Adam and Eve would have been expelled from the garden mid day day 3 or 4... before creation was even complete...
At the very least we can point out that the typical garden narrative is wrong. that chapter 2 and 3 are not consecutive events nor even are they chronological events as day 3-7 still have to be complete If we are not adding to scripture. Which means any amount of time could have taken place between the end of chapter two and the beginning of chapter three. it could have been week, month, year or the 100 bazillion years evolution needs for it to take place.
The only thing we know for sure is the end or exodus of the garden happened about 6000 ago as that is how far our 'genealogies' push time outside the garden back to. so YEC's this reading can work for you as well. Now Understand I am not saying you have to believe in evolution for this to work... Again it could have been a week in the garden, but the rest of the world and the evidence does not support this.
Now we as religious people can blindly put out heads in the sand and pretend none of what the world says matters, but our children will not follow us in doing this...lest the "bible BELT' still means something to your kids... but eventually with as much importance the world puts in schooling and collage, they will have to make a decision for themselves.
I have been working with this age group of fresh/new atheist converts, and this one point in the bible that 'we' collective have no answers for, with our traditional readings. is the key stumbling block for our kids going off to school. Again you may not need to reconcile all of the contradictions in genesis, but our kids, rather most of them will/do. as they receive unimaginable pressure to conform to a non god culture, being pushed by science. Now we have the tools to fortify our faith in light of all 'science' has to say. their biggest point being the time line.. now we need not concern ourselves with time lines as God has place non on creation or time spend IN the garden..
Now some of you probably want to point out the 930 years of Adam in chapter 5.. In most translations it says "Adam lived 130 years and begat seth and then lived another 800 years on this earth."
I simply point out that the time spent with God was garden time, and not life on the earth/post garden life. how can I say this? it is simple. God told Adam and eve the day they ate of the forbidden fruit they would surely die. They did. or rather whatever type of immortal life they lived with God (remember the tree of life was in the garden as well and they had access/could eat from it freely) ended the day they were expelled from the presence of God, and they were sent here saddled with their punishments. (Lest you call God a liar) It is if Death is the common bond we have with Adam but in reverse. He was created to exist with God hand in hand and died to come to this earth, to be punished on this purgatory/earth where Satan reigns. (see the book of Job and the temptations of Christ..) And "we" not created in the garden, are born here slaves to sin get to choose to be with God or suffer the second death in this life, and then Die and move on to the life Adam gave up.
Again for the traditionalist. this really changes nothing as you can adjust the time line any way you see fit as there is not one mentioned. but for the kid stuck between this world and God, you can indeed have a 100% literal reading of genesis 1-5 and still assimilate everything the evolution being taught has to say in between the time of chapter 2 and chapter 3 of genesis.
Again nothing I do here changes the content not one letter of the bible. all it does is take the old way of reading and understanding the first 5 chapters of genesis and reminds us of the natural breaks in the story and has us more closely examine the bits we over look that allow the old thinkers to turn genesis 1 and 2 into one creation account rather than 7 day creation and the garden narrative.
Note.. I've been teaching this for the last 10 or so years and yet have had one single atheist can break this reading. meaning their best efforts to use evolution to circumvent the bible or their use of the bible to try and dismiss this reading as they do with YEC's or traditional jewish time line and reading. they can't despite some really good efforts.
Now the best any of them can say or do is question why I have a need to preserve a literal reading of genesis 1-5 (again because Jesus Himself read and referenced it literally, and if he got that wrong then He wasn't who He claimed to be.) Or call me an anti semite for challenging the traditional jewish reading and interpretation.
Not a bad trade for those who need the time to square what they are being taught with their faith.