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Featured How to answer a Seven Day Adventist in regards to the true Sabbath

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by The Times, Jul 20, 2017.

  1. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    On these 2 Commandments hang all The Law and The Prophets...meaning, if you follow the 10 Commandments, ALL of them, you show you love God and your neighbor. How do you show you love your neighbor "internally"? You show it by doing it...externally...feed the hungry, visit the sick..."if you do these things, you have done them to me."
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  2. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    The Sabbath was instituted at creation (Genesis 2:1-3). It was made for man (Adam) Mark 2:27. You are the one misinformed. You say we do not need to follow the Commandments? So what do we need to follow? You say Christ? Well He taught the Commandments. We follow Him.

    What do you mean by "protestantism is coming to Orthodoxy in time" and "Orthodoxy and its leadership must be informed that we are under the High Priest, call him the Patriarch, the Pope, the God who is Jesus Christ..."?
     
  3. Galilee63

    Galilee63 Newbie

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    Jesus God Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mother MRy are Present Physically Manifested Present in every one of Jesus Catholic Church at His Altars within His Blessed Holy Sacrament and within His Holy Tabernacle including Jesus Gods Holy Confessional and Holy Communion Gods Blessed Holy Eucharist changed by Jesus God Holy Spirit during His Holy Masses into His Holy Flesh and Blood for His Holy Communion with Jesus seen in His Blessed Holy Sacrament by Catholic Parishioners here including myself and people are missing out on receiving Gods Holy Sacred Blessings Gifts and Graces in our Lord Jesus Holy Divine Mercy in His Holy Confession where Jesus is waiting for hearts to repent to Him whether it be Saturday or Sunday and waiting for hearts to receive Him in Holy Communion whether it be Saturday or Sunday although we should not work or enjoy ourselves while ignoring Jesus God and Holy Spirit on sundays

    The whole day should be dedicated to our Lord Jesus God Holy Spirit Holy Mother Mary and for others in need through God instead of self gratification and bringing our broader families and communities together in God
     
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  4. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    the "new" is the perfectly good, the "old" is imperfect (such is the biblical terminology)

    if there has been no "sin" in the world for the last two millennia, then there would also be no "death", but if there are still people that suffer and die, then this indicates that there is still "sin" and "death" in the world; the first man, Adam, has not been the only person through whom "sin" has entered into and settled down in the world, but there has been a whole generation of such people, namely the religious worshipers and spiritual servants of unrighteousness (remember that Jesus uses expressions such as "this generation" many times in the Gospels where He talks about people of sin, as in Matthew 12:41-45, Matthew 23:33-36, etc.) - unfortunately there have always been people committing spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness since the day of the Fall (remember that the world freedom from "sin" and "death" had not lasted long since God cleansed the world from all spiritual lawlessness/wickedness in the time of Noah - one of the Noah's sons began to sin a great sin...)

    actually the same universal principles are the basic principles on which the New Covenant is based, here are some verses/passages from books of the New Covenant presenting the same universal laws that we can see in the Ten Commandments:

    corresponding to the first of the ten commandments (namely, the religious worshiper must not follow/worship/serve any god, christ or spirit but the true One):

    1 John 5:19-21 "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Little children, guard yourselves from idols." (because the first woman obeyed the other god, the wicked one),

    1 Corinthians 8:4-7 (NHEB) "Therefore concerning the eating of(i.e. as for the act of following/practicing) things(i.e. spiritual/religious things) sacrificed to idols(or: that are unrighteous/heretical), we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords(also: many christs);" yet to us(i.e. but actually the truth applying to all humans in this regard is that) there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him. However, that knowledge(i.e. this belief/understanding/consciousness) is not in all men. But some, being so accustomed to idols until now, eat as of a thing sacrificed to(i.e. practice the faith in favor of) an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled." (because the other gods(the idols) are just faces of the wicked one)

    corresponding to the second of the ten commandments (namely, the religious worshiper must not create any spiritual/religious theory or spiritual/religious practice in connection/conjunction with any thing that is either in the "heaven", in the "earth", or in the "see/waters" (given that the true Lord God is the only One that is beyond/above these three), neither must they revere such things, nor serve them (even if not they but someone else created them)):

    2 Peter 2:1 (NIV) "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.",

    2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (AKJV) "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him.",

    Galatians 5:7-9 (NASB) "You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.",

    Galatians 1:6-9 (NLT) "I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ. You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ. Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.",

    Revelation 2:19-26 (NASB) "I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality(i.e. of unrighteousness) and eat things(i.e. and practice spiritual/religious things) sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery(i.e. who practice idolatry/heretical religion) with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them—I place no other burden on you. Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end"

    corresponding to the third of the ten commandments (namely, the religious worshiper must not use the faith for selfish/private purpose(s)):

    1 Corinthians 10:24-32 (NASB) "Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor... Give no offense either to Jews(i.e. to religious people) or to Greeks(i.e. to irreligious ones) or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things(i.e. in all good things), not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.",

    1 Corinthians 12:7 (NASB) "to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.",

    1 Timothy 6:3-7 (NASB) "If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment(i.e. by unfeigned contentment). For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either.",

    Romans 15:1-4 "We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

    corresponding to the fourth of the ten commandments (namely, the religious worshiper must not forget to keep the sanctuary of the true God clean/holy; in principle they are free to do everything with which there is no causation/infliction of evil/harm to/on any person/soul, but when it is a time for them to/while they practice the faith they must be careful not to defile the sanctuary of the true One (by bringing abomination to the holy place), because the true God made all the universal creation in six days and has against his will gone into a centuries-long state of incomplete wakefulness, which is why He prepared the way for spiritual servants to sanctify His creature/creation while He is in that state):

    Song of Songs 4:16 "Awake, O north wind(i.e. o God); and come, thou south(i.e. and come also from south if necessary); blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved(i.e. my true God) come into his garden(i.e. into my heart/soul), and eat his pleasant fruits(i.e. and do His works there).",

    1 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NASB) "Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.",

    1 Timothy 2:1-10 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks(i.e. prayers, intercessions, pleadings and blessings), be made for all men(i.e. for the salvation and life's provision for all humans); For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty(also: in all goodness and earnestness). For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(i.e. all humans/souls) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become/be good/righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(also: the (be)souled being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men(i.e. that the male believers) pray every where, lifting up holy hands(i.e. (entirely) showing love/goodness toward others), without wrath(also: without hostility/aggression) and doubting(also: and dramatizations/intrigues/fuss/strife). In like manner also, that women(i.e. that the female believers) adorn themselves in modest apparel(i.e. in humility), with shamefacedness(i.e. with meekness) and sobriety(i.e. and sanity); not with broided hair(i.e. not with pride/arrogance), or gold(i.e. or vainglory), or pearls(i.e. or (inordinate) wisdom), or costly array(i.e. or (inordinate) dignity/grandeur/nobleness); But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.",

    1 Timothy 4:1-11 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron(i.e. defiled with occult powers of idolatry/heretical religiosity); Forbidding to marry(i.e. the sex life), and commanding to abstain from meats(i.e. consumptions), which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving(i.e. to be used for good purposes) of them which believe(i.e. of those who practice the faith right) and know the truth(i.e. and also of those who understand the truth). For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving(i.e. if it is used for good purpose(s)): For it is sanctified by the word of God(i.e. by the Holy Spirit) and prayer(i.e. and with/through the prayers of the true Saints). If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables(i.e. refuse the defiling and the morally outdated creeds/religions of the world), and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach."

    ..... etc...

    yes, the "old" had been imperfect (Hebrews 8:7-13), the "new" is much more graceful/gracious and revealing/explanatory, because the true Lord Himself came to give it alone saying that from that moment on there will be a quick victory over the evil one until the end of the reign of the wicked kingdom, which will come sooner than if He didn't came - with Jesus there is much greater grace/power for overall salvation in the Heavenly Father, but this doesn't mean that the universal laws/principles presented in the Ten Commandments do no longer apply - it is like claiming that two plus two is always a number different from four (no way, moreover, i know even from experience that there has been great hardness even in a big part of the hitherto prevailing "christianity" exactly due to a great lack of true faith and insight into the God's Commandments there)

    do you dare believe in krishna instead of Jesus Christ knowing that Jesus is the Lord that died for us, not krishna (2 Peter 2:1)?!, so here is how the Ten Commandments still apply to us, because they tell us (e.g.) to not have other gods besides the true One, so why must we abolish them?! - after all, they do not contradict what is written in the biblical books of the New Covenant

    why not people keeping the Holy Commandments be his seed/sheep?!

    Matthew 9:13 "go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.",

    1 John 5:3 "this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."

    the Ten Commandments as well as others presented in Scripture are, first of all, spiritual principles/rules and should be kept by the religious worshipers and spiritual servants, just as the police officers have their police rules, the firefighters also have theirs, the doctors/surgeons have their medical/hospital rules, etc., because the irreligious and non-occult people do/may not even know that there is a god and other suchlike things (Romans 2:14-15)...

    yes, you are right here, but you have also to remember that the temple of the true God is also the human body, and if there is no one to sanctify it when there are many to defile it by committing great enough spiritual lawlessness/wickedness, then...

    Blessings
     
  5. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that basically entails our obedience to God and his Christ. As far as the Sabbath is concerned, the literal day is now the Spiritual Sabbath, because doing all those things that are in his commandments, we have entered his rest. We desire mercy from God and his Christ and are not required to sacrifice. When we abide in the Lord of the Sabbath, we are observing the spiritual Sabbath.
     
  6. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    The Commandments of God are still in force on the sons of disobedience, but as far as any Jewish sabbath customs are concerned, we only are required to observe the Spiritual Sabbath, by abiding in the Lord of the Sabbath and not a literal day of the week.

    Protestantism will see that the way of Orthodoxy and martyrdom is the way of the cross and they will come and make sacrifice of themselves, when the time is called for the shedding of their blood during the Great tribulation.

    There is no High Priest other than Jesus. The Orthodox Church need to realise that Jesus is the Patriarch in heaven and on earth, as all things in heaven and on earth and under the earth is given into his hands. The Holy of Holies is occupied by our one and only High Priest Jesus Christ and no one should claim to be High Priest on earth as this would fall in line with the many false Christ's prophesy.
     
  7. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Why do you think that Orthodoxy does not realize He is our High Priest? We have no pope. Are you sure you are Orthodox?
     
  8. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Indeed the seven sacraments of Jesus Christ are available 24x7 for people to receive in Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
     
  9. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    No, on the contrary I do recognise that Orthodoxy does realise that Jesus Christ is our High Priest in Heaven and on Earth. Jesus ministers in the Heavenly Holy of Holies for his Church and this place is occupied by Him always.

    The issue I have is, where in the Liturgy the priest says let us go into the Holy of Holies to do sacrifice. This is not Orthodoxy, because no Priest on earth can go into the Holy of Holies. In the Old Testament the Jewish High Priest can, to minister on behalf of the people, because the Holy of Holies was on earth, along with the Ark of the Covenant. After Jesus ascended up on High as our High Priest aka Pope, He now is ministering for his Church in the Holy of Holies in Heaven.

    No human can enter the Holy of Holies to do sacrifice or to even offer prayers. There is only one mediator Jesus Christ who occupies this position and it is not transferable to any human.
     
  10. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

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    :scratch:

    where'd you get that from?
     
  11. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree.

    Yes and no. The born again believer considers themselves spiritually dead to the world, where they are grafted into the Living Vine, who is the Last Adam. Since the fruit of the tree is of the Holy Ghost, then the Garden is restored to back when there was no Commandments. In fact, even though true believers bodies will die, their spirit will be quickened by the Holy Spirit who raised up Jesus from the dead. We can not be in a state of sin, to be recipients of the law, otherwise it would question our very own salvation and void our faith in Him who ransomed us from certain death.

    I agree. The sanctuary in the Old Testament was the temple in Jerusalem and believers were required 5 times a day to face it and to prayer and observe it, especially on sabbaths. However, as you rightly say, the sanctuary of God is that of the body where the Holy Ghost dwells and so where every we go by faith in Christ, we are observing the Sabbath, which handnt been abolished, but it has changed in application, much like when Jesus said.....

    when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem.

    So, where a born again believer goes, the Sabbath temple is present in them, for the Kingdom of God is within you.

    The application of the Sabbath has definitely changed.

    The feast, is the Jewish 50 day Pentecost. This is the feast to end all feasts and it ushered in the new leaven, which is not associated with the old Jewish practices and customs, especially those for the observance of sabbaths. The feast of Pentecost thanksgiving, after the anointing the most high, Jesus Christ who became the firstfruits of the harvest.

    The feast to end all feasts Pentecost, no longer required priests and believers to continue with those Jewish practices.

    Worshipping the true one, is no longer through the old leavan. The literal sabbaths are no longer required, because they are superseded by the spiritual Sabbath, within the new sanctuary of the body, where the Holy Ghost dwells.

    The laws don't apply externally to the body of Christ as our last Adam, they apply to the unbelieving world. The Sabbath external observance is no longer tied to the external sanctuary and is therefore apllied within the new sanctuary. Every time a born again believer lives and breathes and glorifies God and preaches to the unregenerated, they are in full observance of the spiritual Sabbath, without needing to look outwardly to an external sanctuary.

    Universal laws in the Old Testament had a vastly different application to the law of love within the New Testament. The Old Testament was the Old leavan and the New Testament the new leavan. It would be likened to playing literal tennis, with a tennis ball, to playing tennis on a gaming platform, with different peripherals used as inputs. In the first you use your legs and arms and in the gaming you use your mouse and keyboard. That is why Paul called the born again Christians the walking and talking law, with scripture in hand. (Romans 2:14)

    Old covenant and new covenant are totally different forms of worship my friend.

    No, the commandments are applicable to the first Adam and his seed. We are under grace, and so we are under the law of love, which is the law covering all law and prophets as Jesus said. Everything has been transferred and applied differently than before.

    The law of love is what is required of the seed of the last Adam.

    Exactly, which is why the Commandments have now been applied vastly differently under the last Adam.
     
  12. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    It is a typo, I meant to write unnecessary. I believe I went back and changed it to unnecessary. Thankyou for the heads up.
     
  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    The veil in The Temple was ripped and we become a Nation of Priests with Him as our High Priest. Hebrews 10:19-21 and 1 Peter 2:9

    Also, you said Temple prayer was 5 times daily? I am not aware of this. I know there were 3 times of daily prayer in The Temple. Muslims pray 5 times daily.
     
  14. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    it is written that many old covenant's things were just a copy and shadow of the very heavenly things (Hebrews 8:5), which doesn't mean that there could be no or there had been no righteous worshipers for the time before the establishment/enactment of the New Covenant, because even the biblical books of the New Testament are full of figurative words and expressions i.e. (as it were) literal representations of things that cannot be seen with the physical eyes and, in general, cannot be sensed with the physical senses, for they are spiritual, which means that the religious worshipers and spiritual servants have always had to see into spiritual things so as to know them (since the time of Moses and even since the beginning of the history of human religiosity), or as St Paul says to some of the believers that maybe you would call "born again believers":

    1 Corinthians 15:29-34 "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame."

    so how do religious worshipers know the true God if none of them can cast demons out of demon-possessed people, heal the sick, resurrect the dead, etc., and if none of them can even preach the gospel of the true God?!, and you can see that at least most of the modern christians are not competent/able to do any of the things/works Jesus and His true disciples presented in the Bible did two millennia ago, and why?!, because they know the true One well enough?!, on the contrary, 'cause they have not followed the Holy Laws of the true One, but relied only on some supposed, extraordinary grace(mercy) on the part of God without working hard enough for overall salvation in Him and His Son, Jesus, furthermore, this has continued for centuries - there were not enough true spiritual leaders to organize them

    the matter at hand in Romans 2:14-15 is irreligious and non-occult people, and the biblical Saints say they are another category, namely the one of the ordinary users, but nevertheless they do not naturally break/violate the Holy Law of faith, at least because they are irreligious and non-occult, and therefore do not intervene improperly/unduly in the spiritual/God's works

    there is a whole teaching/doctrine in God, and the worshipers have to act according/conform to its laws at least when practicing the faith, and if there is a need for any of them to make efforts in order to do the will of the true One, then they have to do it... - billions of people have perished, namely because there have been almost no true spiritual servants to save them...

    remember that each of the true disciples of Jesus had worked very hard for overall salvation in Him, They were not just believing in the last Adam, but working for Him just as He Himself worked for God, the Heavenly Father - They, Who were no more than a dozen men, had saved thousands of people perfectly, nowadays billions of worshipers together cannot achieve even one of Their feats...

    Blessings
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  15. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is correct.
     
  16. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    What I would say to some Seven Day Adventists, in regards to their claim that the Sunday law will be the mark of the beast, is this.....

    If the Devil wanted to deceive the Jews, how would he do it? Would he not try to make a universal sabbath law instead of a sunday law?

    Think about it, to convince the Jews that he is messiah, the Devil must come in his own name, mandate a universal sabbath law and strengthen his authority by use of worldly governmental forces or fortresses.

    If you contrast the false messiah with the true Messiah, we discern that Jesus did not come in his own name, did not mandate a sabbath law and did not setup an earthly governmental kingdom of military forces.

    Now, is the AntiChrist going to mandate a sunday law or a sabbath law?
     
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