• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured How to answer a Seven Day Adventist in regards to the true Sabbath

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by The Times, Jul 20, 2017.

  1. woobadooba

    woobadooba Legend

    +856
    Christian
    Married
    I am no longer an SDA, but I am a Sabbath keeper. To me, keeping the Sabbath day holy has nothing to do with obsession, but obedience to God.

    I have been observing the 4th commandment for more than 18 years, and not one person has given solid evidence to prove the Sabbath day has been done away with or changed by God. All I have seen thus far is presumptuous statements and out of context Bible verses presented by people who object to it.
     
  2. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

    +1,032
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I hear people say they keep the Sabbath day holy, simply because they did not work on Sunday (others insist it must be on Saturday) yet Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel. Even when Christians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To keep the Sabbath (as it was required in the Old Testament) involves compliance with regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

    If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings that went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to Israel. If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person say they truly "keep the Sabbath" when they only keep part of it?

    If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh-day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as Israel did in the OT, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under the Mosaic regulations.

    In Colossians 2:16-17, the Apostle Paul also said 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  3. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

    +5,441
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    How to answer a Seven Day Adventist in regards to the true Sabbath

    You don't. It's a complete waste of your time.
     
  4. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

    +1,032
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I'm beginning to see that. :sigh:

    Romans 14:5 - One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. SDA's seem to have an unhealthy obsession with the Sabbath, as seen below:

    3. At the end of time, a conflict will arise between those who worship the beast and his image and those who are the true followers of God. What sets these two groups apart is that one group, the true loyal remnant, keeps Saturday as a holy day, and the other group, the fallen and apostate, keeps Sunday as a holy day:

    "One class will advocate a gospel of human devisings and will worship the beast and his image... The other class, in marked contrast, will live by the true gospel and 'keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus' (Rev. 14:9,12)... those who reject God's memorial of creatorship--the Bible Sabbath--choosing to worship and honor Sunday...will receive the mark of the beast."2

    4. At the end of time, those who keep Sunday as a holy day will seek to destroy those who keep Saturday as a holy day. They will pass laws against the Sabbath-keepers, eventually passing a death-penalty for those who keep Saturday holy. These laws, prophesied by church prophetess Ellen White, are known to Adventists as the National Sunday Law or Universal Sunday Law:

    "Those who obey God will experience the wrath of the dragon (Rev. 12:17) and eventually be threatened with death (Rev. 13:15)." These laws will force all to choose which leader they will follow: the beast or God.

    5. Jesus will return to put an end to the conflict, and those who kept Saturday as a holy day will "stand together with the Lamb on Mount Zion" while the Sunday-keepers will "receive the full wrath of God and die".
    - Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast

    That teaching is dangerous and unbiblical!
     
  5. woobadooba

    woobadooba Legend

    +856
    Christian
    Married
    You have done the very thing I was talking about—made presumptuous statements and have given out of context verses. Much could be said in response to this, but I am tired of this debate.
     
  6. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

    +2,853
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    How do you observe the sabbath? And do you also not eat pork or shellfish/fish without scale, and wear the tzitzit..... Or does your law observances stop at the 10 commandments?
     
  7. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +890
    Non-Denom
    Married
    It has been a while and I could not find my old notes, so let us look at every other time day possessed by God/Christ or others in the NT and when it could/should be better translated court or judgment:

    1 Cor. 4:3

    (NIV) 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.

    KJV But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self

    RSV But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself.


    1Co 1:8

    NIV Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    RSV who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    This “day” is not a 24 hour period.

    1Cor. 5:5

    KJV To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus

    RSV you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    This again is talking about judgement and not a 24 hour period.


    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


    Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


    Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you


    Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment


    Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

    These are judgments and not a 24 hour period.


    Luk 17:24

    KJV For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    NIV For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

    Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


    Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    This is not a 24 hour period.


    Rom 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God


    2Co 1:14 (as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.



    Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption



    Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;



    Phl 2:16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain


    1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night


    2Th 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come


    2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


    Heb 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching


    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up


    2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?


    1Jo 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world


    Jde 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day


    Rev 6:17 “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
     
  8. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

    +1,790
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    You are speaking like you were some kind of Protestant convert. The Sabbath in Orthodoxy is on the 7th day. The Sabbath was not "linked" to Temple...there was no Temple when God instituted it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  9. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

    +216
    Christian
    Single
    So what laws of the Sabbath are we keeping then ????

    In modern western societies you can't really keep the Sabbath because unbelievers are providing services for water and sewerage,road services, lighting and so on. Using a vehicle is that work ?
     
  10. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

    +1,790
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    What do the Scriptures say? No work (making money, commerce, no paying bills, etc) and no kindling of a fire. It is a day set apart for you and God. It is now in your heart...you don't HAVE to...you WANT to...
     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,301
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    How to answer a Seven Day Adventist in regards to the true Sabbath

    What other denominations besides Messianic Jews and Adventist keep the Sabbath?
    Anyway, there is a GT sub-board concerning this topic. [I no longer debate on that controversial subject]

    Sabbath and The Law
    The Sabbath and the Law forum is for discussing a variety of topics related to Sabbath day worship and keeping the law..............


    .......................................................[​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  12. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    +794
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    Our God or should I say the God of the Holy Bible, who is Jesus Christ said......

    32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’

    The Greatest Commandment

    34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.
    35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
    36Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
    37
    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
    38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
    39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
    40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    An expert of the law asked Jesus which is the greatest commandment? Did you know, that on several occasions Jesus was tested by the Pharisees and for Sadducees in regards to the Sabbath law.

    Do you know, the recourse the expert of the law was trying to trip up Jesus with?

    The Sabbath law.

    When you understand the legalism side of the question, you will note that it is directly tied to the other three.....

    Though shalt have no other gods before me

    Though shalt not make unto thee any graven image

    Though shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain


    The fourth commandment is the legal basis of the first three, because if you don't keep the Sabbath, you are guilty of breaking the other three.

    After all, this is legalism in dished out form.

    Jesus answered them previously, in regards to this form of legalism as follows....

    “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

    The DAILY Sabbath is associated with sacrifice, yet what the Jews and the SDA church and other alleged Sabbath keepers fail to recognise is, that the sacrifices have ended, by the once and for all sacrifice of the Lamb of God, who became the firstfruits of the harvest to end further sacrifices, under the bygone temple centred sacrificial system.

    The Sabbath was directly tied to the temple centred sacrificial system and this is why Jesus said, I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

    When the God of the Holy Bible Jesus Christ says that he requires mercy and not sacrifice, means that he was about to be the sacrifice to end all sacrifices and so he NOW only requires mercy as he is going to be taken as a sacrificial lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7).

    Therefore according to Matthew 12:34-40 we have no temple centred sacrificial system and no literal Sabbath keeping tied to its legalistic framework, that requires external temple worship. From Pentecost and onwards, it has changed in application, after the sacrifices and oblation have ended and the firstfruits Jesus Christ is now our Sabbath rest continuous and since he said that he was to send us another Comforter aside from himself, then the question to the SDA church and other literal Sabbath keepers is....

    Is the Holy Ghost indwelling born again believers greater than any external temple/church/synagogue?

    Are you continuing to sacrifice weekly on the Sabbath in place of the one time sacrifice that God made?

    Is the literal Sabbath day greater than the Lord of the Sabbath, who is the Holy Ghost?

    You see, if you keep the literal Sabbath, then you are continuing under a covenant that has been abolished by God, along with its High priesthood, its external temple centred worship and its sacrificial system and oblation.

    Jesus said the Ten Commandments are replaced by the two, which is love the Lord of the Sabbath with all your hearts, mind and soul and love your neighbour likewise.

    Also Jesus said, true worshippers no longer perform the external temple worship services, rather they are to worship The Lord of the Sabbath in spirit and in the secret compartments of their hearts.

    Born again Christians are falsely accused of idolatry by the Sabbath keepers, when in fact it is the other way around. Truly truly who is deceived by this sheraid!
     
  13. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    +794
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    There are some calling it the abomination that maketh desolate.
     
  14. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    +794
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    Please read post #52 carefully and scrutinise it to your heart's content.

    But I ask you, to please understand that the faith in Christ is no longer tied to a legal framework associated with a sacrificial system. We are not under the law and its statutes, rather we are under Grace and the mercy of God and that is why Jesus would say that he desires mercy and not your sacrifices.

    God's Ten Commandments, after the offering of the firstfruits Jesus Christ and 50 days from Pentecost and onwards, we are no longer applying the Ten externally, rather we are instructed by Jesus to only apply two internally. These two are love the Lord of the Sabbath with all your mind, heart and soul and do so likewise to your neighbour.
     
  15. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    +794
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    The temple was the external tent that Moses operated from and later it would be given in instruction to the Israelites to exactly how to build it and how to offer sacrifices.

    Not only is the Sabbath legalistically connected to an external temple, it also is mandatory to offer sacrifices under the levitical high priesthood of Aaron. That is why in the temple Holy of Holies the ark of the covenant consisted of the staff of the High Priest Aaron, the Ten Commandments and other peripherals.

    I don't know why you are so misinformed and no, I am more head deep in Orthdoxy then you ought to know. Protestantism is coming to Orthdoxy in time. But Orthodxy and its leadership must be informed that we are under the High Priest, call him the Patriarch, the Pope, the God who is Jesus Christ, who is declared to be ministering on our behaves as HIS Church, in the heavenly Holy of Holies. So the Arc of the Covenant is no longer on earth, hence why these judaisers can't find it. They can make one up, but they will never find the original.

    Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. (Revelation 11:9)

    It is not on earth. It is in heaven. There can not be a High Priest on earth who can claim to enter the Holy of Holies, because it is occupied and it is not on earth, get it, please, please!
     
  16. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

    +221
    Non-Denom
    Private
    in principle you think/reason right (some religious worshipers and spiritual servants have really acted rashly while there has been a need for effective helpful intervention), it is really so that the worshiper can keep only the two greatest commandments of the Lord without thus breaking/violating the law, but there are universal laws after all, for example, if a worshiper loves God with all their heart, with all their soul and with all their mind, but that their god turns out to be another, not the true One, will they receive the true Holy Spirit from him?!, or if a worshiper doesn't know what (kind of) spirit lives in them, will it thus be certain that they have the true Holy Spirit?!, or if a worshiper follows/supports a spiritual theory or spiritual practice and it turns out that spiritual theory or practice is not of the true One, will it turn out that they have worshiped/served Him, not the wicked one?!, etc., so these universal laws have not in vain been defined in the form of Ten Holy Commandments - they are important criteria, it is another question whether all worshipers understand them correctly

    Blessings
     
  17. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    +794
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  18. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

    +221
    Non-Denom
    Private
    and what is that biblical "world"?!, Jesus doesn't say the Ten Commandments are no longer in force, but He says none of them will ever be abolished and He Himself fulfills them (Matthew 5:17), and if any person annuls any of them and teaches others to do the same, he/she will be last in the kingdom of God (Matthew 5:19), so, that bad "world" is, first of all, the world of unrighteous spirituality/religiosity, as it is explained in the book Revelation, the other god, the wicked one, may try to convert as many people as possible to its spiritual/religious system (Revelation 13:11-18); Jesus explains this in Matthew 24 where we can read that many false prophets and false christs may come to spread/impose unrighteous religions - the religions of the wicked one, which can even promote self-imposed faith (Colossians 2:23), for example, yoga of krishna and patanjali offers people a frivolous spirituality based on occult meditation through the third eye a.k.a. the sixth chakra (note: the number of the beast is six hundred threescore and six); so that "world" is not the one created by the true God, or, as St Paul says, there is no such thing created by Him that is unclean of itself (Romans 14:14-20, 1 Timothy 4:1-5), but that "world" is the world of spiritual lawlessness/wickedness that tries to defile the creations and creatures of the true God - it has already even managed to defile many things created by Him, for example see how things such as sex are kind of defiled as if the true God Himself has made them unclean since the beginning, as if He has made the man and the woman unclean in themselves since the beginning...

    so, this is why He wrote those commandments on two tablets of stone, which say that the religious worshiper may sin a great sin if they have another god, lord(christ) or spirit besides the true One (Exodus 20:3), or that if they don't seek/invoke/pray to another god, but follow/support any spiritual theory or spiritual practice that is not of the true God, then they can thus also sin a great sin (Exodus 20:4-6), or that if they have no other gods and don't follow spiritual/religious doctrines/teachings that are not of true God, but use the faith for evil, unclean, unrighteous or selfish purpose(s), they can thus also sin a great sin (Exodus 20:7), etc., and sin is when someone causes evil to another, which could happen/be done entirely in a spiritual way...

    there must be some criteria for the religious worshipers so that they can practice the faith right i.e. without committing spiritual lawlessness/wickedness, because it is precisely the sin that is called "great sin" in Scripture, the original sin, the sin of the sins, the evil of evils, the cause of the causes, the iniquity of iniquities, etc., or as St Paul says:

    Romans 5:12-14 (KJV) "by one man(also: through the generation of the unrighteous spiritual workers/servants) sin(i.e. the devil as well as the system of spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness, a.k.a. the kingdom of the evil one) entered into the world, and death(i.e. and the (spirit of) deterioration) by sin; and so death passed upon all men(i.e. and so deterioration affected many humans), for that all have sinned(i.e. because many were seized by the system of (spiritual) unrighteousness/wickedness - some as its servants, others as its victims): For until the law sin was in the world(i.e. because the "darkness" was in the universe even before the nascence of human spirituality/religiosity): but sin is not imputed when there is no law(i.e. but there is no sin where there is no spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness). Nevertheless death(i.e. the deterioration) reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression(i.e. even over people that had not committed spiritual lawlessness/wickedness)"

    so the Ten Commandments are still in force, and they are not against us, but the commandments that had been a reason for people to cause evil to other people have been canceled, namely commandments such as: "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" (Matthew 5:38-42), "stone the harlot to death" (John 8:3-11), etc.:

    Colossians 2:14-15 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances(i.e. annulling the imperfect part of the ordinances in the God's covenant) that was against us(i.e. that was prejudicial to people), which was contrary to us(i.e. which was adverse to us), and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers(i.e. and having denounced the unrighteous spiritual/religious systems and powers), he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

    remember that the Ten Commandments were the only ones that were kept under the cover of/in the ark (Exodus 25:21)...

    Blessings
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  19. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    +794
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    I agree with your reasoning to why the commandments are eternally essential for God to judge the world.

    You said something very interesting. I caught on it like a beacon. This is what you said....

    100% correct. So who became sin and the law simultaneously?

    The old has gone, the new is here! (2 Corinthians 5:17)

    What is old?
    What is new?

    Look at those two questions, in light of your statement above.

    Then understand, how the Adamic sins of the world past, present and future, are imputed onto who.

    21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

    So, if the first Adam is now replaced by the last Adam, where then in existence, is the original sin or fall?

    Since the Ten Commandments were applied to the first Adam and his seed, then how be it, that they could be also applicable to the last Adam and his seed?

    Do you understand how the old has gone and the new is here?

    Since we are the seed of the last Adam who bore the sins for his seed, then the Ten Commandments do not apply, otherwise it would mean that the last Adam has also fallen and his seed are also under bondage of tge legalistic law, the Ten Commandments.

    This is why Christ's seed are under Grace. John wrote.....

    17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

    You answered what I explained above so eloquently. The Ten Commandments are not against us, because they don't apply to us, who are the seed of the last Adam, the new, remember.

    Exactly, the ordinances were applicable in the lives of the first Adam seed. We are the last Adam seed. However the unbelieving who do not abide in Christ and his instructions are under the curse of the law. So they weren't abolished in this regard and still remain in force against those, whom Christ does not consider to be his seed/sheep.

    However, the Ten Commandments and their ordinances were taken out of the way and nailed to the cross, solely for Christ's seed. So that Christ's seed do not apply them and are not required to apply them. However the seed of Christ must follow Christ's instruction and Jesus becomes the ultimate authority in this regard. So that if the world says a union is between man and man or man and beast or man and robot or robot and robot, then it is quite easily discernible that these are not his seed, right?

    Yes, correct. Where are the Ten Commandments or should I say where is the ark of the covenant. Since our high priest Jesus ministers in heavenly Holy of Holies, the ark is in heaven and not on earth. Jesus becomes the Temple.

    Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. (Rev 11:19)

    I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev 21:22)

    It comes back to how we are to worship God, remembering that we no longer follow the old testament ordinances and sacrificial system associated with the Daily sabbath.
     
  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,301
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Here in God's country of Texas, we like the 10 Commandments.........

    ................

    ..............................................[​IMG]
     
Loading...