How to answer a Muslim or an atheist's objection to the Cross

[Tania11]

This objection I've run into quite a few times by Muslims and atheists. The objection is: God is not just for allowing an innocent to be punished in our place.

Although in Islam, there is a teaching of Christains and Jews taking on the sins of Muslims in hell.

How would you guys tackle this question for both Muslims and atheists?

Thanks.

 

[Light_Conquers]

I dont think you have to answer them

 

[dzheremi]

This objection I've run into quite a few times by Muslims and atheists. The objection is: God is not just for allowing an innocent to be punished in our place.

Although in Islam, there is a teaching of Christains and Jews taking on the sins of Muslims in hell.

How would you guys tackle this question for both Muslims and atheists?

Thanks.

For the Muslims, you've answered it yourself. I can't recall where exactly it is in the Islamic corpus, but I'm almost certain it is in one of the Sahih hadith collections (Bukhari or Muslim), which are considered authentic in Sunni Islam.

For the atheist, what kind of atheist believes in sin to begin with? So a God who they don't believe exists is being unjust for allowing someone else who they (possibly) don't believe exists to be punished for offenses that they don't believe exist? (at least not in those terms; for sure, atheists would likely recognize what we call sin to be bad and morally objectionable things that a person shouldn't do in many cases, like murder, kidnapping, etc.)

I fail to see how either can maintain such an objection sincerely, and I wouldn't waste my time with objections that are made for objections' sake, though I suppose it's always possible that the Muslim may not know that particular hadith, or that the atheist simply isn't thinking things through.

 

[thecolorsblend]

This objection I've run into quite a few times by Muslims and atheists. The objection is: God is not just for allowing an innocent to be punished in our place.

Although in Islam, there is a teaching of Christains and Jews taking on the sins of Muslims in hell.

How would you guys tackle this question for both Muslims and atheists?

Thanks.

My experience has been that atheists object to the cross for reasons wholly different from Moslems. I gather your experience is different and I find that interesting.

The question seems predicated on an acceptance of the doctrine of Penal Substitutionary Atonement. On that basis, I can quite understand why Moslems and atheists both object to that doctrine. I believe that PSA is far outside of God's character for a variety of reasons.

The concept of Our Lord being considered by God to be literally juridically guilty of our sins and punished accordingly is simply an indefensible concept.

So rather than defend that, I highly recommend researching and studying Satisfaction Theory Of Atonement, an introduction to which can be found at Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia on Wikipedia. That system of atonement is far closer to God's character, I think. It's also a far more logical theory than PSA.

Plus, I suspect atheists and Moslems might better accept (or at least understand) Satisfaction Theory.

 

[ChristianGirl_96]

Say nothing?

 

[-57]

God is not just for allowing an innocent to be punished in our place.

I would ask...why is that unjust?

 

[bling]

This objection I've run into quite a few times by Muslims and atheists. The objection is: God is not just for allowing an innocent to be punished in our place.

Although in Islam, there is a teaching of Christains and Jews taking on the sins of Muslims in hell.

How would you guys tackle this question for both Muslims and atheists?

Thanks.

I got into this discussion several time with Muslims and a few times with atheists, bottom line is they are right.

They helped me change my ideas on atonement, but atonement is a huge topic, so there is no quick easy answer and lots of theories each having huge issues.

Muslims especially go to their Muslim websites written by Muslim biblical scholars that point out the huge weaknesses in the Christian doctrine with all the theories of atonement being the biggest weaknesses.

All the theories first big issue is: “God needing Christ to go to the cross to forgive, pay the penalty, or pay satan off”. The fact is God needs nothing to forgive, take anything from satan or do anything.

Second issue: If God forgives 100% than there is nothing to pay and if Jesus pays 100% there is nothing to forgive.

Thirst issue: You have God seeing to the torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent and in someway this “satisfies” (makes God happy to do it).

Forth issue: With penal substitution you also have the totally unjust idea of the torturing, humiliation and murder of the innocent (even a willing innocent), which allows the guilty to not have to experience anything, when the guilty should be disciplined.

The cross is a wonderful example of obedience, but all of Christ’s life is an example and the cross is way over kill, just to show an example, plus there seems to be a lot more to it.

What you need to do is get practical and logical going places these Muslim and atheist have not been.

Remember the cross is foolishness to the non-believer, so it is not easy to explain and it is even hard to explain the lots of Christians, but atonement is one of those activities easier experienced then it is explained, which your Muslim and Atheist are not ready to do.

I have started with presenting the idea: “God is our Father”, the most wonderful parent we could have (the Muslims have 100 descriptive words for God but never call Him, “Father”).

What does the very best Loving parent do with an extremely rebellious disobedient child, who has sincerely turned to Him (repented)? Does that parent forgive the child but, since this is not the first time the child has disobeyed, would the parent not also seek out a fair/just Loving discipline for that child if at all possible?

Poor and negligent parents do not discipline their children, so God would not want to be like those parents.

The Bible tells us prior to Christ coming to earth, He had to leave the sins sincerely repented just unpunished (undisciplined) yet forgiven, since there was no way to justly/fairly discipline His children and have them live.

(For your personal benefit I am referring to: NIV Ro. 3:25 “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.” Unpunished can mean undisciplined when your talking about your children. This takes a lot to explain and I am giving you my conclusion, but I can give you a 1000 words explanation if you want.)

With Christ coming and going to the cross we now have a way to be fairly justly disciplined and yet live, we are told in scripture that we are to be: “crucified with Christ” which means as we come to the knowledge of what Christ did because of our sins and to help us, we out of a huge Love for Christ empathetically are crucified with Christ similar to what God felt out of Love for Christ when He experienced with Christ the crucifixion.

Of course, if you do not believe Christ went to the cross because of your personal sins, you will not experience disciplining of your sins.

Christ and God out of an unbelievable huge Love for us, allowed wicked people to crucify Christ, so we could obtain all the wonderful benefit from being disciplined, even though Christ’s crucifixion is hard on us.

That is part one of 13 part explanation for every verse in the Bible dealing with atonement.

 

[Steven Beck]

I got into this discussion several time with Muslims and a few times with atheists, bottom line is they are right.

They helped me change my ideas on atonement, but atonement is a huge topic, so there is no quick easy answer and lots of theories each having huge issues.

Muslims especially go to their Muslim websites written by Muslim biblical scholars that point out the huge weaknesses in the Christian doctrine with all the theories of atonement being the biggest weaknesses.

All the theories first big issue is: “God needing Christ to go to the cross to forgive, pay the penalty, or pay satan off”. The fact is God needs nothing to forgive, take anything from satan or do anything.

Second issue: If God forgives 100% than there is nothing to pay and if Jesus pays 100% there is nothing to forgive.

Thirst issue: You have God seeing to the torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent and in someway this “satisfies” (makes God happy to do it).

I really think you need to understand a biblical concept that God is Justice. God is Love but not just Love but Justice and Righteousness also. Atonement is tied directly to Justice & Righteousness. Read Romans 5. God is Holy and cannot abide SIN. Sin must be paid for. The angels that sinned cannot be atoned for and will pay for their sin by being thrown into the Lake of Fire forever. Jesus is God and WILLINGLY paid for OUR Sins so that we have no need to pay for our sins. Has nothing to do with making God happy or satisfied. Jesus death on the cross by crucifixion was the payment in full.

Now what do you think will happen to those who do not accept this payment? Ah yes they must pay in full which will be the same fate as those fallen angels.

Forth issue: With penal substitution you also have the totally unjust idea of the torturing, humiliation and murder of the innocent (even a willing innocent), which allows the guilty to not have to experience anything, when the guilty should be disciplined.

The cross is a wonderful example of obedience, but all of Christ’s life is an example and the cross is way over kill, just to show an example, plus there seems to be a lot more to it.

What you need to do is get practical and logical going places these Muslim and atheist have not been.

Remember the cross is foolishness to the non-believer, so it is not easy to explain and it is even hard to explain the lots of Christians, but atonement is one of those activities easier experienced then it is explained, which your Muslim and Atheist are not ready to do.

I have started with presenting the idea: “God is our Father”, the most wonderful parent we could have (the Muslims have 100 descriptive words for God but never call Him, “Father”).

What does the very best Loving parent do with an extremely rebellious disobedient child, who has sincerely turned to Him (repented)? Does that parent forgive the child but, since this is not the first time the child has disobeyed, would the parent not also seek out a fair/just Loving discipline for that child if at all possible?

Poor and negligent parents do not discipline their children, so God would not want to be like those parents.

The Bible tells us prior to Christ coming to earth, He had to leave the sins sincerely repented just unpunished (undisciplined) yet forgiven, since there was no way to justly/fairly discipline His children and have them live.

(For your personal benefit I am referring to: NIV Ro. 3:25 “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.” Unpunished can mean undisciplined when your talking about your children. This takes a lot to explain and I am giving you my conclusion, but I can give you a 1000 words explanation if you want.)

With Christ coming and going to the cross we now have a way to be fairly justly disciplined and yet live, we are told in scripture that we are to be: “crucified with Christ” which means as we come to the knowledge of what Christ did because of our sins and to help us, we out of a huge Love for Christ empathetically are crucified with Christ similar to what God felt out of Love for Christ when He experienced with Christ the crucifixion.

Of course, if you do not believe Christ went to the cross because of your personal sins, you will not experience disciplining of your sins.

Christ and God out of an unbelievable huge Love for us, allowed wicked people to crucify Christ, so we could obtain all the wonderful benefit from being disciplined, even though Christ’s crucifixion is hard on us.

That is part one of 13 part explanation for every verse in the Bible dealing with atonement.

 

[Chris35]

1

 

[Francis Drake]

This objection I've run into quite a few times by Muslims and atheists. The objection is: God is not just for allowing an innocent to be punished in our place.

Although in Islam, there is a teaching of Christains and Jews taking on the sins of Muslims in hell.

How would you guys tackle this question for both Muslims and atheists?

Thanks.

I wouldn't waste my time debating the subject with unbelievers as scripture makes it clear that nobody can understand the cross prior to being born again!

 

[Chris35]

a

 

[Steven Beck]

17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

God didnt force Jesus. Jesus chose to lay down his life for us out of love, what is just and unjust has nothing to do with.

You really believe that? Let's look at scripture.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Notice justified. Justice, just, justification. The cross is about JUSTICE.

As to your verse about Jesus laying down his life yes it was HIS CHOICE but notice Jesus in the Garden.

Luk 22:41 And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,
Luk 22:42 saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”

 

[bling]

The "Church" is much more like a family then a corporation. We are working together and not just following orders and in fact it is the Spirit working through us.

 

[Steven Beck]

The "Church" is much more like a family then a corporation. We are working together and not just following orders and in fact it is the Spirit working through us.

See John 5:19.

 

[Francis Drake]

The "Church" is much more like a family then a corporation. We are working together and not just following orders and in fact it is the Spirit working through us.

I would argue that the vast majority of churches are just like corporations, and very little like a family, unless you refer to the many dysfunctional families that today's society churns out.

 

[Victor in Christ]

This objection I've run into quite a few times by Muslims and atheists. The objection is: God is not just for allowing an innocent to be punished in our place.

Although in Islam, there is a teaching of Christains and Jews taking on the sins of Muslims in hell.

How would you guys tackle this question for both Muslims and atheists?

Thanks.

Tell them what the Lord has done for you in your own life. Don't tell them what Christ has done for others as you'll never truly know. Your personal testimony matters.

 

[bling]

See John 5:19.

A body or a family fits much better then a company organization.

 

[bling]

I would argue that the vast majority of churches are just like corporations, and very little like a family, unless you refer to the many dysfunctional families that today's society churns out.

What they are "like' today and what they should be like is two different things. A body or family seems to fit much better of what it is to be like.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Not good to answer questions that are only meant to start debates and arguments. Debate is never a good thing in the Bible.