How the rapture theology may allow Christians an excuse....

[FireDragon76]

Good. Even though I grew up with it, I abandoned it 40+ years ago. It is actually quite scarey, especially the Arminian variety. If you happened to sin right before it occurs, you get left behind and any hope of salvation is lost. The Holy Spirit who has restrained antichrist is removed so no one can be saved from that point on.

One thing I am disgusted by in my church is a sizeable minority in our Lutheran congregation take this rapture stuff seriously (it's the South after all). Its disheartening and I wish the pastor would call it out. But he tolerates it because modern ELCA Lutherans have this "live and let live" attitude. But its very wrong from an historic Lutheran perspective.

Luther's interpretation of Revelation was very simple, that the saints of God are always with Christ ,who has already secured victory. Everything else is potentially dangerous speculation that can only undermine our faith in Christ finished work alone.

 

[Dave-W]

A point of view I regard with some amusement, given the lack of perspective about Christian history, at least, which it seems to exemplify.

Yeah. Church history is not viewed favorably in evangelical and fundamental circles. The thinking goes something like this:

The early church had it right but quickly lost it. It was not until [founder] rediscovered "it" that anyone had the truth again. Every thing in between is useless and dangerous.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, we'd have to start by examining the precept that the early church had it right, wouldn't we? There's much in the epistles to suggest that the early church was doing a heck of a lot of learning and development, even in the earliest years.

 

[Dave-W]

Well, we'd have to start by examining the precept that the early church had it right, wouldn't we? There's much in the epistles to suggest that the early church was doing a heck of a lot of learning and development, even in the earliest years.

I completely agree.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, we'd have to start by examining the precept that the early church had it right, wouldn't we? There's much in the epistles to suggest that the early church was doing a heck of a lot of learning and development, even in the earliest years.

I wouldn't imitate some of Paul's ideas on church discipline, for instance, uncritically. 2,000 years of church history shows us that just doesn't end well. You get a well-honed pharisee as an end-product.

 

[mkgal1]

Calvary Chapel is a good example of what I said. They broke off of Foursquare Gospel church, a denom very similar to Assy of God, also with Methodist roots and solidly Arminian rather than Calvinist.

This is what I know of the history of Calvary Chapel:

Donning Hawaiian-print shirts, Smith famously preached verse by verse, led spirit-filled worship, and warned California hippies about the end times starting in the 1960s and ’70s. His Calvary Chapel fueled the Jesus People movement that shaped contemporary US evangelicalism, spreading from the West Coast across the country and abroad.

Smith graduated from LIFE Bible College and was ordained as a pastor for the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel. In the late 1950s Smith was the campaign manager and worship director for healing evangelist Paul Cain.[citation needed] After being a pastor for a different denomination, he left his denomination to pastor a non-denominational church plant in Corona, California, and eventually moved to a small pre-existing church called Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, California in December 1965.[4]

 

[bekkilyn]

United Methodists have no official statement on end time prophecy other than a present and future reign of God.

I do like to learn about all of the different theories and went to a Revelation seminar at a nearby Lutheran church. Seems that Missouri Synod branch of the Lutheran denomination (which this church was) has published literature with a very specific stance that does *not* support Rapture theory.

 

[mkgal1]

This is a good description of the attitude that I've only recently taken notice of (noticing first maybe a couple of years ago):

The puzzle of apocalyptic, for any serious Christian, any thoughtful reader of the New Testament, is whether, and if so how, ‘apocalyptic’ can be rescued from the ‘Left Behind’ school of thought, whose adherents anticipate the ‘Rapture’ in which they will be snatched up to heaven, leaving this world behind once and for all. Those who take this view have no reason to worry about the condition of the present world, and issues like global warming or acid rain; indeed, they sometimes take pride in their pollution, since the world is not their home, they’re just a-passing through, and if they can hasten its demise so much the better. And this careless attitude to creation goes with an eager desire for war, especially certain types of wars with certain types of enemies, particularly the war that will lead to the great Armageddon. You will know better than I how influential this brand of theology has become in our world, and in your country.[Apocalyptic and the Beauty of God

It also seems to extend to their own hearts and behavior as well....believing that when they're "taken up"....that's when their transformation will take place. But how can they read the NT and miss all the passages where Paul is encouraging us with language like "put on the mind of Christ" and "walk in His light"?

 

[Dave-W]

It also seems to extend to their own hearts and behavior as well....believing that when they're "taken up"....that's when their transformation will take place.

There was some wacko back in the 1980s that claimed to have figured out the year of the rapture, if not the day and hour. He advised his followers to live it up, take out huge loans, buy fancy cars and houses since they would not have to pay much of it back. Well, that year came and went. We were all still here.

oops.

 

[Richard T]

"But...just to finish my thought: see how Alex was putting a Christian's transformation off in the future? I've been seeing a lot of that recently ("we won't be changed until Christ returns" and sentiments like that)."

Our spirit is saved when we are born again, our mind is renewed while we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and lastly one day our bodies will be fully complete when we get a resurrection body. This transformation occurs in this manner regardless of what one thinks of the end times.

There is no real downside to rapture believers, in fact the main scripture of focus says we are comforted. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 (KJV) 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Rapture believers contend for the faith, and we should influence the secular world, take care of the environment as good stewards etc. Not knowing when the rapture is to occur, should make one live more fully, as there may be no tomorrow.

Many, especially partial preterist leaders, teach that rapture believers stand in their way, that they will not work to fulfill the seven mountain mandate or embrace certain end time events (as they see them). Again, every believer regardless of end time view is doing their part if they are walking in the spirit. Thus, there is no reason to be prideful or slothful with any end time view.

 

[mkgal1]

Maybe the best way for me to articulate my original thought when I began this thread is that there's a division created when a person believes they (and other "born-again saved believers") are going to be "taken up" and out of here. There doesn't seem to be any interest in genuinely reaching out to others (other than maybe toss out a condensed version of "how to get saved"). I see quite a bit of isolation and people keeping to their own group....with the exclusion of their neighbors that are outside of their church walls. That may sound really judgmental....but that's just what I've observed.

OTOH....those with the theology that God is reconciling ALL things to Him seem to be working to join in God's mission of reconciliation (by feeding the hungry; housing the homeless; bringing comfort to the broken-hearted...etc).

 

[Richard T]

mkgal, Thanks for the clarification. If you think you might leave any day, you probably are more focused on sharing the gospel, and less focused on the seven mountains of influence. Rapture believers I know are not just sitting around. It still boils down though to whether any believer is either led of the spirit and doing the work of God, or walking in the flesh, not the end-time beliefs.

 

[mkgal1]

After struggling with this for a few months....I think this is what I was trying to express or was noticing: