How the rapture theology may allow Christians an excuse....

[Dave-W]

Your version is scarier, but it might motivate people toward eliminating sin from their lives.

There was a movie that made its way around that used Norman's tune for its theme: A Thief in the Night.

Part of that theory was that you had to go all the way thru, (you could not die) based on this:

Revelation 9:6
And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.​

 

[Dave-W]

I remember telling him that is the only way, if true, that Gentile women would still be under law.

Where do you get "still" from? Gentiles were never given the Law.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Where do you get "still" from? Gentiles were never given the Law.

Exactly. The premise I heard (not from you but the others) is that enactment of the role of God meant women were under law to men. However Paul taught grace not law so was referring to resurrection for grace. Not crucifixion that which was representative of baptism. He may have known Christ and Him crucified but his emphasis was on Christ in resurrection. We have not all gotten to the point of fullness in Christ in the new man, but imho it's because there are too many fighting against being a member of the body.

 

[mkgal1]

Don't you believe that there will be a literal Second Coming of Christ "with power and great glory"? And is that not a future event? So why do you blame "rapture theology" when the Bible clearly presents the Second Coming and the events to follow?

.....are you following me?

To answer your question: Yes....I DO believe in a literal second coming of Christ (with power and great glory) in the future. Let me see if I can express this in an understandable way. The difference between my beliefs in eschatology and what yours seem to be is that I don't see things occurring in swift and black/white single events. I see His Kingdom transforming ALL things in a gradual way (with a nexus of events).....because people and beliefs and creation don't respond well to rapid change.

As Cassia already posted, we have evidence that our hope for transformation isn't a far off hope for the future....the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Ephesians 2--> So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.​

 

[mkgal1]

since no Christian who believes in a Rapture promotes the idea that in the meantime Christians can live as they please and that they are not to be sanctified as revealed in the Word.

The Preterists have been falsely claiming that the Second Coming occurred in 70 AD. Well if that were really true then we would all be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth and there would be ABSOLUTELY NO SIN AND EVIL IN THIS WORLD.

You seem to be taking what I'm saying and then leap all the way over here------------------------->
!
I said nothing about "live as they please". There's something in between. I linked to a Christian that believes this (and this isn't the only time I've seen this sentiment....or those like it...thus prompting me to begin this discussion):

"Political activism is only a temporary change, and will always fall back when despotic leaders resume power. The only hope that is a sure hope is Christ returning and transforming the world. All else is vanity."
​

We ARE living in the New Heavens and New Earth (in my belief).......because that's not literal (the ancient Jews believed the Temple was where heaven and earth came together......figuratively). Today....WE are the Temple....God dwells within us (but that's another discussion). There is also a New Covenant....the Old has disappeared.

 

[mkgal1]

For an overview of already-inaugurated eschatology....this excerpt from their book gives a good explanation (IMO):

MAKING ALL THINGS NEW Inaugurated Eschatology for the Life of the Church

Benjamin L. Gladd and Matthew S. Harmon With an Introductory Chapter by G. K. Beale~
http://cdn.bakerpublishinggroup.com...es/files/Excerpt_9780801049606.pdf?1453997989

 

[Micah888]

We ARE living in the New Heavens and New Earth

If that is true then Alice in Wonderland is also true.

 

[Micah888]

...I see His Kingdom transforming ALL things in a gradual way...

What do you make of these Scriptures (Q) Is there anything *gradual* about this dramatic event (Q)

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (2 Thess 1:7-10)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:27,30)

Christians should not be deluding themselves into thinking that the Second Coming of Christ will be *gradual* and invisible. That is a contradiction of plain Bible truth.

 

[mkgal1]

Christians should not be deluding themselves into thinking that the Second Coming of Christ will be *gradual* and invisible. That is a contradiction of plain Bible truth.

That's not what's being argued. Please stay on topic. I'm not suggesting His Second Coming is gradual (and where did you even get the "invisible" part from ?).....I'm asserting that the transformation of His creation is gradual. I'm also asserting that we don't need to wait for "God to come and transform us". We have the power and access to the wisdom in order to participate in that transformation....now.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The invisibility can be viewed as transparency perhaps without looking at the reference. But transparency itself has varying degrees from the Emperors clothes to integrity. Trivia

 

[Kiterius]

I've heard that argued, and I could see that danger. There is a danger also in emphasizing social and environmental missions over evangelism.

There is a danger, because they should not be divided. Evangelism, and the redemption of society and the environment, go hand-in-hand. They are all a part of the mission of God.

 

[HereIStand]

There is a danger, because they should not be divided. Evangelism, and the redemption of society and the environment, go hand-in-hand. They are all a part of the mission of God.

Evangelism should be more of a priority for the church, otherwise the church has little to offer the secular world.

 

[mkgal1]

The invisibility can be viewed as transparency perhaps without looking at the reference. But transparency itself has varying degrees from the Emperors clothes to integrity. Trivia

I hadn't mentioned "invisible" before (so I wondered why that was first brought up)....but now that you mention it...there is this:

https://www.christianbook.com/.../9780802414496/pd/414496...&

The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough” (Matthew 13:33; cf. Luke 13:20-21).

Jesus uses this story as an object lesson to illustrate the kingdom of heaven. A woman takes yeast (leaven) and mixes it into dough. Eventually, the whole of the dough is leavened. What does it mean?

First, it’s important to define “kingdom of heaven.” By this, Jesus is referring to His domain as the Messiah. In the current age, the kingdom of heaven is spiritual, existing within the hearts of believers (Luke 17:21). Later, the kingdom will be manifest physically, when the Lord Jesus establishes His throne on this earth (Revelation 11:15).

In the Parable of the Leaven, we learn several things about the working of the kingdom in our present age. Each of these lessons stems from the nature of yeast.

First, the kingdom of God may have small beginnings, but it will increase. Yeast is microscopic in size, and only a little is kneaded into the dough. Yet, given time, the yeast will spread through all the dough. In the same way, Jesus’ domain started with twelve men in an obscure corner of Galilee, but it has [will] spread throughout the world. The gospel makes progress.

Second, the kingdom of God exerts its influence from within, not from without. Yeast makes dough rise from within. God first changes the heart of a person, and that internal change has external manifestations. The gospel influence in a culture works the same way: Christians within a culture act as agents of change, slowly transforming that culture from within.

Third, the effect of the kingdom of God will be comprehensive. Just as yeast works until the dough has completely risen, the ultimate benefit of the kingdom of God will be worldwide (Psalm 72:19; Daniel 2:35). “The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14).

Fourth, although the kingdom of God works invisibly, its effect is evident to all. Yeast does its job slowly, secretly and silently, but no one can deny its effect on bread. The same is true of the work of grace in our hearts.

The nature of yeast is to grow and to change whatever it contacts. When we accept Christ, His grace grows in our hearts and changes us from the inside out. As the gospel transforms lives, it exerts a pervasive influence in the world at large. As we “reflect the Lord's glory, [we] are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit” (2 Corinthians 3:18).~ Parables of Jesus by James Montgomery Boice

 

[Kiterius]

Evangelism should be more of a priority for the church, otherwise the church has little to offer the secular world.

Discipleship must be #1. If we haven't built relationships with people, we haven't earned the opportunity to speak hard truth into their lives.

 

[mkgal1]

To me....I don't see how a "social movement" can be much more than a group of people focused on social issues. I don't see how that's anything different from the Bible...in fact it seems to be just what Jesus was focused on. That's even how He divided the goats from the sheep:

Matthew 25~
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.​

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I hadn't mentioned "invisible" before (so I wondered why that was first brought up)....but now that you mention it...there is this:

https://www.christianbook.com/.../9780802414496/pd/414496...&

I have yet to begin reading (hope to get around to it sooner than later) F.W. Grant~ The Crowned Christ and Atonement

In Type, Prophesy, and Accomplishment, the Cross of Christ is the central fact in the history of the world. The doctrine of atonement is therefore the centre and heart of divine truth.
Any unsoundness here will prove fatal and all fundamental error elsewhere will find, of necessity, it's counterpart in some false view of atonement.

Can't wait to read it.

The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough” (Matthew 13:33; cf. Luke 13:20-21).

Jesus uses this story as an object lesson to illustrate the kingdom of heaven. A woman takes yeast (leaven) and mixes it into dough. Eventually, the whole of the dough is leavened. What does it mean?

First, it’s important to define “kingdom of heaven.” By this, Jesus is referring to His domain as the Messiah. In the current age, the kingdom of heaven is spiritual, existing within the hearts of believers (Luke 17:21). Later, the kingdom will be manifest physically, when the Lord Jesus establishes His throne on this earth (Revelation 11:15).

In the Parable of the Leaven, we learn several things about the working of the kingdom in our present age. Each of these lessons stems from the nature of yeast.

First, the kingdom of God may have small beginnings, but it will increase. Yeast is microscopic in size, and only a little is kneaded into the dough. Yet, given time, the yeast will spread through all the dough. In the same way, Jesus’ domain started with twelve men in an obscure corner of Galilee, but it has [will] spread throughout the world. The gospel makes progress.

Second, the kingdom of God exerts its influence from within, not from without. Yeast makes dough rise from within. God first changes the heart of a person, and that internal change has external manifestations. The gospel influence in a culture works the same way: Christians within a culture act as agents of change, slowly transforming that culture from within.

Third, the effect of the kingdom of God will be comprehensive. Just as yeast works until the dough has completely risen, the ultimate benefit of the kingdom of God will be worldwide (Psalm 72:19; Daniel 2:35). “The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14).

Fourth, although the kingdom of God works invisibly, its effect is evident to all. Yeast does its job slowly, secretly and silently, but no one can deny its effect on bread. The same is true of the work of grace in our hearts.

The nature of yeast is to grow and to change whatever it contacts. When we accept Christ, His grace grows in our hearts and changes us from the inside out. As the gospel transforms lives, it exerts a pervasive influence in the world at large. As we “reflect the Lord's glory, [we] are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit” (2 Corinthians 3:18).~ Parables of Jesus by James Montgomery Boice

It's interesting that Luke has both woman and the yeast to rise the bread as indicative of God the Son also. Can both be claimed as invisible ;P

 

[PloverWing]

There was a movie that made its way around that used Norman's tune for its theme: A Thief in the Night.

We watched that movie in my church youth group! Wow, that was a long time ago.

 

[WolfGate]

This whole discussion reminds me of the Jews and the prophecies about the Messiah. Looking back now, it is so clear that they referenced Jesus, however before his ministry they Jews expected an entirely different fulfillment of those prophecies. They got what God promised, just not the way they expected.

That is how I see these debates on interpreting the scriptures about the second coming of Christ. No doubt the scriptures are entirely true - but perhaps those who are so confident in exactly how it will transpire can learn from history.

 

[mkgal1]

They got what God promised, just not the way they expected.

That's been in the forefront of my mind as well. There are STILL those that believe the curse is how God wishes for us to live....and that we're slaves to it ("your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you" and what was said to the serpent, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.") neglecting to realize that we are FREE from that now. His work is "finished" (we're just waiting for everyone to live with the understanding of that). We're FREE-like Chris Tomlin sings (and the same people probably sing about every Sunday). What's worse is.....they are putting the shackles on others.

 

[bekkilyn]

I recall being in a thread a few months ago in which some people were proclaiming that Christians didn't need to do anything about preserving our natural environment because Jesus was going to come back and destroy it all anyway, so I do believe there is something to the idea of "rapture theology" allowing some Christians the idea that it is okay to just sit back and do nothing to promote God's Kingdom in the present.

The concept of "once saved, always saved" may also contribute to this rationale as I've heard some (capital E) Evangelical preachers claim that once we've accepted Jesus, there is absolutely *nothing* we can do to choose otherwise even if we want to. Once he has us, he has us no matter what we do.

It certainly helps to explain the destructiveness, relative cruelty, disdain for the poor and disenfranchised, and lack of empathy among some populations of Christians.

(Just finished reading that "other" thread mentioned in the OP. Goodness, there were truly awful things being said and claimed there. Too much seeking validation for hard-line opinions already formed and much less willingness to be open for real discussion.)