How the great tribulation will end

[Douggg]

Of course, I will apologize if you can search the scriptures and produce anywhere where God shows Satan on a white horse with a bow going forth as a conquerer.

The rider on the white horse is not Satan, but the little horn person.

In Daniel 8:23, the little horn shall "stand up". "stand up" is an idiom for prepares to go to war.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The war is the Gog/Magog attack on Israel, that he hopes to deter by positioning his EU army in Greece, the territory of one of the break-up kingdoms of Alexander's empire.

Following Gog/Magog, he enters the middle east and Israel coming from north and west of Israel, Daniel 8:9, to act as peace keeper, i.e. the rider on the white horse. He destroys many by peace, Daniel 8:25.

The Jews will think he is the messiah, and the person will be anointed the King of Israel, coming in his own name.

In Daniel 8:25 again he stands up - the idiom for prepares to go to war. This time against Jesus, as he (having become the beast) leads in assembling the armies of the world at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The rider on the white horse is not Satan, but the little horn person.

Again, the Scripture does not say that. The little horn is not the "person" that you alleged. It's just man-made speculation coming out of your mouth to fit your flawed doctrine. I know for a biblical fact based on what Scripture clearly declares.

In Daniel 8:23, the little horn shall "stand up". "stand up" is an idiom for prepares to go to war.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Stand up means preparing for war? No. It means to rise. In other words, rise to power after the transgressors within God's congregation come to the full. For example, the beast (body of false prophets and christs) deceiving many to the point that the apostasy of their transgressions come to the full, their king rises and rules therein! You are missing something in verse 23. It says in the latter time of their kingdom (end time) when the TRANSGRESSORS come to the full. What is full? That is what the number 10 signifies. Fullness of whatever is in view!

Rev 17:12-13
(12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
(13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Remember, the horn signifies power. Verse 12-13 are speaking about kings symbolizing their reign which they will have near the end. In the days of these ten kings, Satan will emerge with power for a short season (little horn). That is after the seventh beast. This is Little Horn emerging and being the eighth king BUT IS OF THE SEVENTH! This is when the spirit Satan is loosed of God, he goes out in power to rule over the nations, the same thing he was doing before he was bound at the Cross! Which is consistent with the prophecy of Daniel. This little horn signifying Satan's reign for a little season of time just as Revelation 20:3, 20:7-8 declared!

Compare Scripture with Scripture. After deceiving and gathering the gentiles/nations (unbelievers), Satan went up against the camp of the Saints, who symbolically are the stars or host of heaven:

Daniel 8:9-10

• "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
• And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."

And you think the pleasant land is a physical land in the Middle East. Wrong again. It is the New Testament congregation where the holy place is after the Cross. I would think it would be obvious why I say the "little horn" is a symbol to represent the "little power" Satan has to rule over the nations near the end, to bring them up against God's people to trample them underfoot. Nothing to do with the supernatural man from Europe upon national Israel to trample Jews underfoot! Not at all! You got wrong Israel. The only place we can find stars on this side of the Cross is the New Testament Congregation. The stars represent true Elect and professed Christian within the New Testament Congregation! It is the professed (unsaved) believers that Satan deceive and caused them to fall with his lying signs and wonders! Selah! National Israel? Please!

I will say this again and again. The little horn is NOT a man as you thought. I have shown you Scripture many times God has defined horn as power! The little horn is being... well, little. A short season of power Satan will be allowed to rule after the ten horns. Didn't you read the Scripture?

Rev 17:16-18
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

God allowed Satan to have HIS kingdom for a short season! It is the unfaithful New Testament Congregation, the home of false prophets and christs! Nothing to do with National Israel.

The war is the Gog/Magog attack on Israel, that he hopes to deter by positioning his EU army in Greece, the territory of one of the break-up kingdoms of Alexander's empire.

I assure you that the army of Gog and Magog are not literal nations out of Alexander's empire to attacks a nation in the Middle East in the near future. Rather it is the army of false prophets and christs that are attacking God's congregations all over the world. Look, I BET that you have not yet examined each country like Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer, Togarmah, etc. with the rest of the Scripture and find out what they sell or trade. And to find out what their armors, bucklers, shields, swords, helmets, clothing, etc. symbolically of! I will give you a hint...if you do your homework: What does True Christian wear in Ephesian 6? Humm? So what do you think our enemies, Gog and Magog, wear in Ezekiel 38? Think carefully. They are among us within God's congregation that Satan deceives all over the world. I am telling you the truth, it will take you alot of proper study by comparing Scirpture with Scripture to find out who Gog and Magog really are. Think... God spelled out the enemies that Israel faced in the Old Testament are A TYPE of enemies we face in the New Testament church! To try to link these countries with literal nations on the map and then built a doctrine upon it is NOT wise, to be honest with you. I have done this before so I already knew where you come from and WHY.

Following Gog/Magog, he enters the middle east and Israel coming from north and west of Israel, Daniel 8:9, to act as peace keeper, i.e. the rider on the white horse. He destroys many by peace, Daniel 8:25.

Sorry, but no, you are not accurate on this. Your were not listening to what I wrote earlier.

The Jews will think he is the messiah, and the person will be anointed the King of Israel, coming in his own name.

Funny. Where is Scripture on this. Your little horn will be "anointed" the king of Israel. I do not read that in Scripture. Sorry, buddy!

In Daniel 8:25 again he stands up - the idiom for prepares to go to war. This time against Jesus, as he (having become the beast) leads in assembling the armies of the world at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

I'm afraid that the distorted reality is all yours since Scripture is clear that the spirit of Satan works in man, not one, but many false prophets and christs, to destroy God's people, and through that very same false sense of peace (cessation of warfare). e.g.

Daniel 8:24-25

• "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
• And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

First, the mighty and the holy people are not the Jews of a Middle Eastern nation. The national Israel, city Jerusalem or temple was NEVER HOLY since the Cross! It is the New Testament congregation that was supposed to represent God's Kingdom. It has two groups within. The True Elect and the Professed believers.

1Pe 2:9
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

This is the temple of the New Testament congregation on this side of the Cross where Satan wants to rule. Satan will casue the stars of the congregation to fall. Not the True Elect, but the professed Christians who believes the lies coming out of the mouths of false prophets. By seeing this apostasy is how Satan is revealed to Elect to come out of the fallen church! Not about a physical Middle Eastern nation or city. Like I said many times before, you got the wrong Israel to interpret prophecies and created charts with in the first place.

Second, it is by this false peace, or this false sense of "reconciliation with God," that the spirit of antichrist wrecks havoc on God's congregation. This Strong delusion that they are serving God (John 16:2), when they are serving as messengers of that old Serpent. I think perhaps a little repetitive reading and study would actually do you some good in the reality check department.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Be careful not to be deceived by "newspaper eschatology" that you seem to allow the world events to read into Bible prophecy - often substituted for serious pursuits of biblical and theological studies as well as Christian sanctification and discipleship!

Making your case almost entirely on the color of the horse while ignoring the bow and why Jesus would come first to conquer and then return again later to do the same vs. his coming to rapture the church and meet the church in the air is not very convincing. The antichrist will have a fake crown and every king on the earth was king by permission of the Lord, so the fact that the first rider is given a crown doesn't mean much other than he's a king.

Might I ask what your view of eschatology is overall? Your screen name of TribulationSigns suggest Futurism but I cannot tell from your statements you make.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Making your case almost entirely on the color of the horse while ignoring the bow and why Jesus would come first to conquer and then return again later to do the same vs. his coming to rapture the church and meet the church in the air is not very convincing.

I have proved Scripture concerning the White Horse, bow, and crowns. Didn't you read carefully and compare it with Scripture? Where is your biblical refutation, seriouisly?! Your convincing is not up to me, but the Lord's.

The antichrist will have a fake crown

Fake crown?! LOL! Did Revelation 6:2 say this?! And in that verse, are you also going to suggest that the white horse the antichrist will ride upon will be fake too? And will his bow be a fake too? Come on, seriously?!

and every king on the earth was king by permission of the Lord, so the fact that the first rider is given a crown doesn't mean much other than he's a king.

Don't you know what crown in Scripture signifies? Aren't the crown on his head is symbolic of His rule. He can't rule His Kingdom without a crown, right? I have explained how Christ received His crown in Revelation 6 and got many crowns in Revelation 19. Of course, Jesus Christ "is" King of His Kingdom He established at the Cross. The truth is that Christ has already received the inheritance, has already established His kingdom, is already king and already reigning from Jerusalem, is already rebuilding the Temple, has already confirmed the New Covenant with any of Israel. Are you not aware that the New Covenant with Israel is this New Covenant church age?

Hebrews 8:12-13

• "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
• In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

The Bible is very clear on all these points concerning Christ's kingdom, reign, and covenant with the Israel of God. The Jerusalem of this earth is a Jerusalem in the bondage of the flesh (carnal), but the Jerusalem that Christ reigns over is Spiritual and free.

Might I ask what your view of eschatology is overall? Your screen name of TribulationSigns suggest Futurism but I cannot tell from your statements you make.

My view means nothing. Have you received the Gospel I testified? Have you examined it yourself by checking it with your Scripture? If you find some errors in my testimony, please refute them with Scripture, not your private interpretations or opinions, speculations, the left behind series, the books of Josephus or Dave Hunt, and your friend's erroneous charts.

 

[Douggg]

Stand up means preparing for war? No. It means to rise. In other words, rise to power after the transgressors within God's congregation come to the full.

"Stand up" in Daniel 8 is an idiom meaning prepares to go to war. It is something that animals, i.e. beasts do, such as bears, dogs, lions, big horn sheep, when they attack, charge, each other.

Daniel 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

The little horn's action is being described as acting like a beast in...

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

 

[Douggg]

Might I ask what your view of eschatology is overall? Your screen name of TribulationSigns suggest Futurism but I cannot tell from your statements you make.

Jeff, here is a thread I made that might be of help to you. If you want to participate (it is totally voluntary), follow the instructions in the first post of that thread.
Where do you fit ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

"Stand up" in Daniel 8 is an idiom meaning prepares to go to war. It is something that animals, i.e. beasts do, such as bears, dogs, lions, big horn sheep, when they attack, charge, each other.

View attachment 300027

Daniel 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

Incorrect again.

Have you noticed with a big fat red bold I highlighted in your Daniel 8:7 quote, that God has defined the horns as power? Not men. Not persons. So...if the horns are broken, the ram no longer has the power to stand before he-goat.

By the way, do you even know what does the ram represents and its two horns?

The little horn's action is being described as acting like a beast in...

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Do you even know where the little horn comes from?

Dan 8:8-12
(8) Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
(12) And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Doesn't it follow that if the stars are not literal stars, then the place they are said to be residing in (heaven) is symbolic as well? Daniel is speaking of the little horn, the Spirit Satan as he is given the power to assault the Church for a season. They being spoken of again as the stars, the host of heaven. The Prince or Ruler of the Host is Christ, He is the Prince of the congregation or Church. This is the same cryptic language as found in Revelation of stars falling. Here it pictures Satan's reign as this little horn (small power) waxed great, even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Clearly this speaks of the people of God's congregation.

And so comparing scripture with scripture, we should not be too surprised about the heaven and stars in Revelation being symbolic also. Even in the context of Revelation 9:1. A star here and there is the Messenger of God's congregation. Unless of course, you believe that there is a literal great goat in heaven with a little horn that can cast down literal stars to the ground and then stamp upon them? No, horns symbolize "power" and the "stars" symbolize God's messengers. So is it "out there" that God again uses this cryptic language of stars of heaven to signify the people of his congregation? If "out there" is the Spiritual realm of God's truth, OK.

Now can you tell me what four notable ones and four winds of heaven refer to? Be careful, not to apply horns to some nations, empires, or men outside of God's definition! Don't forget to compare Scripture with Scripture.

And notice that the little horn comes forth from ONE of the four notable horns. You believe that the horn is a "person" so tell us BIBLICALLY how the "little" man came from one of four men? LOL. And do you think the little horn (person) will "act or become like a beast itself?" Did God say this in Scripture or it is just one of your 732nd speculation (or private interpretation) made so far? Do you know exactly what the daily sacrifice refers to? And how the reason of transgression brought an end to THIS daily sacrifice? Explain this yourself with Scripture. No speculation, please.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Why can't the stars be literal stars?

 

[Douggg]

Why can't the stars be literal stars?

The literal stars are the size of the sun and many are multiple times larger. The size of the earth is dwarfed by the size of the sun. So it is physically not possible.

The stars is that particular verse is speaking about righteous people of God.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

It is possible. Asteroids are fragments of stars. We have meteor showers, comets, asteroids. Enough of them and it would literally look like the stars falling. Same with thermonuclear war. Beleive or not, I was involved with that at one point in my career. SDI aka Star Wars was not a joke.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

How to watch next week's rare "ring of fire" solar eclipse

Matthew 24:29: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Now I'm not saying this is the end. But I am going to find out when the next eclipse visable from Jerusalem happens.

 

[Douggg]

No, horns symbolize "power" and the "stars" symbolize God's messengers.

The little horn is a person.

Another horn in Daniel 8, 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

It is referring to Alexander, which his Greece kingdom was broken up into four lesser kingdoms.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Hmmmm.

Annular Solar Eclipse on June 1, 2030

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Does the sun becoming dark and the moon not giving off light happen in the beginning, middle or the 7 years of tribulation? The solar eclipse seems to me to fit Scripture precisely. We cannot know the day or hour exactly.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I also came up with 2030 AD 3 other ways, and now 4.
1) Least relevant to all of you but not me - in 1999 my lifetime best friend said "Jeff the world will not end in 1999 or 2012 but in 2030 AD"
2) If you take 2000 years after the resurrection of the Lord you arrive at either 2030 AD or 2033 AD.
3) If you add the life expectancy of a modern day Israeli to the year Israel became a nation again, you end up at 2030 to 2033 AD.
4) The next solar exclipse seen from Israel happens in 2030 AD.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Another eclipse in that rough time frame: Total Solar Eclipse on March 20, 2034

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I apologize for the interruption. Hope I didn't detract too much but this hit me like a ton of bricks.

I found out today that the Muslims also think the world will come to an end, and that Jesus returns then too. First I heard of this being beyond the Christian faith. Do those of the Jewish faith also believe in the end of the world and I would imagine in their view the first coming of the Lord?

 

[Timtofly]

Why can't the stars be literal stars?

Because they are literally angels doing their assigned task. Created on Day 4, and the "stars also".

 

[Timtofly]

Does the sun becoming dark and the moon not giving off light happen in the beginning, middle or the 7 years of tribulation? The solar eclipse seems to me to fit Scripture precisely. We cannot know the day or hour exactly.

It would be a nice birthday present from God. It is the 54th anniversary of the 6 Day War.