How Should We Separate Church and State

Paidiske

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You want other people to provide you with services AND you want others to be compelled (forced) to pay for what YOU want. -
While I elect to exercise and enjoy MY Liberty, and provide for myself, and pay for myself things I choose, while NOT being forced to pay for what YOU want.

Well, I'm comparing what I'm used to, in Australia, to what you're used to, in America, and I think our system is far superior in the most important thing; caring for the vulnerable.

It's fine to have this cult of the rugged individual in a society where everyone is healthy, strong and has the means to leverage their dreams. In reality, it just becomes oppressive.
 
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SBC

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Well, I'm comparing what I'm used to, in Australia, to what you're used to, in America, and I think our system is far superior in the most important thing; caring for the vulnerable.

What I'm use to? How would you possibly know that?

Not everyone leads a healthy lifestyle. That is their choice, to provide, buy, eat, do, as they please. So too is it their choice to make decisions on how to live with their unhealthy lifestyle, to provide, buy, eat, do, as they please.
It's called Liberty, Freedom.


1 Tim 5
[8] But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

It's fine to have this cult of the rugged individual in a society where everyone is healthy, strong and has the means to leverage their dreams. In reality, it just becomes oppressive.

I would hardly call one exercising their own Freedom, "a cult of rugged individuals".

God Bless,
SBC
 
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rjs330

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I now have no idea what you're talking about.

Looking out for others in a society, to my mind, means things like universal government health care and education.

It's got nothing to do with acceptability and I have no idea where that came from.

But the thing is, some things are too big to be done by individuals. I can't provide health care for someone on my own the way our society providing a hospital can. I can't provide an education for someone the way our society providing a school can. Having a society which has these basic structures open to everybody is part of what I see as the basic social contract; we live as a society, we look after one another.
Jesus teachings were individualistic. They were not societal. Judgement in the end is in the individual and not societal. Jesus commanded. This whole business about Christ's teaching being socialistic is just nonsense.

I am not saying that as a society we should not help each other. I'm not saying we should just let people die in the streets. That's just wrong. But helping people is a far cry from socialistic government.
 
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rjs330

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Well, I'm comparing what I'm used to, in Australia, to what you're used to, in America, and I think our system is far superior in the most important thing; caring for the vulnerable.

It's fine to have this cult of the rugged individual in a society where everyone is healthy, strong and has the means to leverage their dreams. In reality, it just becomes oppressive.
We do a very good job of taking care of the vulnerable. We don't have the poor elderly with Alzheimers dying in the streets. We take care if them. I don't know where you get to the idea it all sucks here.

We could do more if we were not bent on providing for those who just need a kick in the pants. A good example where I live is we have McDonalds looking for workers at $12 an hour who can't find employees. But we still have people on unemployment. I talked to a tow truck company owner the other day and he was having a really hard time finding employees because they would rather stay in unemployment than get a job.
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus teachings were individualistic. They were not societal. Judgement in the end is in the individual and not societal. Jesus commanded. This whole business about Christ's teaching being socialistic is just nonsense.

I am not saying that as a society we should not help each other. I'm not saying we should just let people die in the streets. That's just wrong. But helping people is a far cry from socialistic government.
You must not believe in the Trinity then....because that's an example of community.

Linked Article said:
Franciscan Saint Bonaventure, who wrote a lot about the Trinity, was influenced by a lesser-known figure called Richard of Saint Victor. Richard said, “For God to be good, God can be one. For God to be loving, God has to be two because love is always a relationship.” But his real breakthrough was saying that “For God to be supreme joy and happiness, God has to be three.” Lovers do not know full happiness until they both delight in the same thing, like new parents with the ecstasy of their first child.~Richard Rohr – Meditations on the Mystery of the Trinity

Also....we read that Jesus came to establish the Kingdom of God (isn't that "societal"?).

Isaiah 9:6-7
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. (NIV)

I don't believe that's some "far off kingdom" locked away in heaven....because these passages speak of the kingdom being on earth:


Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (NIV)

Luke 17:20-21
When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs.
You won't be able to say, 'Here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is already among you."



To me.....it seems that His true church is the "reign of God" in the hearts of those who follow Him. That's what "binds" together the Body of Christ (which is community....a society).

Sure....we each have free will (I believe)....but that's not meant for us to be isolated (genuine love has to come from freedom). It's not much of a "kingdom" without the "citizens" as well, though. He doesn't seem to wish for anyone to be alienated or isolated from His kingdom:


Colossians 1:20-22
For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—



 
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mkgal1

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What I'm use to? How would you possibly know that?
I believe she was referring to her knowledge of our systems....which is widely-known. But you make a good point....because that doesn't mean you've, personally, experienced well the downfalls our system creates. You demonstrate that in the next quote:

SBC said:
Not everyone leads a healthy lifestyle. That is their choice, to provide, buy, eat, do, as they please. So too is it their choice to make decisions on how to live with their unhealthy lifestyle, to provide, buy, eat, do, as they please.
It's called Liberty, Freedom.
It seems you're under the delusion that your health is within YOUR control (just eat right....exercise....etc). Clearly you've missed the evidence that debunks that theory. You don't have the freedom to choose whether or not you get cancer or any many other traumas in life.
pzv5j7l.jpg
 
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mkgal1

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We could do more if we were not bent on providing for those who just need a kick in the pants. A good example where I live is we have McDonalds looking for workers at $12 an hour who can't find employees. But we still have people on unemployment.
Fortunately, I've not dealt with this personally.....but my next-door neighbor is now on unemployment due to being laid-off from his former position. He's been making $90k+/year for a long time (and, in California, that's about what it takes). From what I understand......his unemployment is $$ he has paid in all these years....and it's based on his salary (not matching it, though). He has a family to support. A job at McDonalds isn't going to have regular hours or benefits that my neighbor needs. It's not that he needs a "kick in the pants".....he's just being practical not to give up his unemployment benefits (his OWN $$) for a job that's going to put him even further behind.
 
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mkgal1

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We don't have the poor elderly with Alzheimers dying in the streets. We take care if them. I don't know where you get to the idea it all sucks here.
She didn't say it "sucks" in the U.S.---she wrote that Australia's system is far superior. There's a difference.

The main problem area in our system is for those that have saved money.....have purchased their homes....but aren't millionaires (the middle-class). My MIL recently broke her ankle is two places (I guess she made a bad decision to pass out that morning) and needed home care. If she didn't have ANY assets....she could have maybe gotten some care. The rehab hospital was $250/day her cost after insurance paid their share. Instead of her watching her saving quickly dwindle.....my husband used his vacation time up that he's fortunately accrued (5 weeks) and cared for her himself round-the-clock. Not everyone has someone that can or will do that for them. After he had to go back to work, she had to pay almost $30/hour for the care she needed while he was at work (then he stayed with her until morning to care for her). This was just a broken ankle! Most people in the middle-class can't afford to get injured or sick. That's not really "taking care of them" in my opinion.
 
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SBC

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I believe she was referring to her knowledge of our systems....which is widely-known. But you make a good point....because that doesn't mean you've, personally, experienced well the downfalls our system creates. You demonstrate that in the next quote:


It seems you're under the delusion that your health is within YOUR control (just eat right....exercise....etc).

No, I am not under any delusion. My health is within MY control.
It seems you are unaware of the etc. because there is more to it than the subjective "right" and "exercise" that everyone touts.

Clearly you've missed the evidence that debunks that theory. You don't have the freedom to choose whether or not you get cancer or any many other traumas in life.

Clearly I trust what is evidenced in myself, my family.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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mkgal1

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No, I am not under any delusion. My health is within MY control.
It seems you are unaware of the etc. because there is more to it than the subjective "right" and "exercise" that everyone touts.



Clearly I trust what is evidenced in myself, my family.

God Bless,
SBC
Now you have me curious.....please inform me how you can control your health completely (and are so assured that no harm will come to you or your family).
 
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SBC

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Now you have me curious.....please inform me how you can control your health completely (and are so assured that no harm will come to you or your family).

No, I can not give you years of study, experiments, trials. It is one thing. My own determination to understand the body of what it requires to maintain a healthy body.

I didn't say "no harm". But I am always preparing ahead of time, of how to deal with what comes along. It's called educating oneself for experiencing life joyfully.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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rjs330

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You must not believe in the Trinity then....because that's an example of community.



Also....we read that Jesus came to establish the Kingdom of God (isn't that "societal"?).

Isaiah 9:6-7
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. (NIV)

I don't believe that's some "far off kingdom" locked away in heaven....because these passages speak of the kingdom being on earth:


Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (NIV)

Luke 17:20-21
When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs.
You won't be able to say, 'Here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is already among you."



To me.....it seems that His true church is the "reign of God" in the hearts of those who follow Him. That's what "binds" together the Body of Christ (which is community....a society).

Sure....we each have free will (I believe)....but that's not meant for us to be isolated (genuine love has to come from freedom). It's not much of a "kingdom" without the "citizens" as well, though. He doesn't seem to wish for anyone to be alienated or isolated from His kingdom:


Colossians 1:20-22
For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—



Didn't Jesus say his kingdom was not of this world? He rejected the idea that he was here for political reasons. His gospel was an individual gospel not a society gospel. He never commanded societies or governments to be socialistic. He did tell us as individuals that we needed to help people out of our own will. Not one time did he demand that government take from some people and give to other people. That is a political position.
 
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rjs330

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Fortunately, I've not dealt with this personally.....but my next-door neighbor is now on unemployment due to being laid-off from his former position. He's been making $90k+/year for a long time (and, in California, that's about what it takes). From what I understand......his unemployment is $$ he has paid in all these years....and it's based on his salary (not matching it, though). He has a family to support. A job at McDonalds isn't going to have regular hours or benefits that my neighbor needs. It's not that he needs a "kick in the pants".....he's just being practical not to give up his unemployment benefits (his OWN $$) for a job that's going to put him even further behind.
Well I don't know what it is where you live, but unemployment where I live is payed by the employer not by the employee. Here employees don't pay anything for unemployment. I know it's tough but that's life. We shouldn't be supporting people who won't work. Not can't but won't. Life is a gamble. We gamble when we buy those really expensive homes and cars and such that we will always have the good paying job. Lenders gamble on the same thing. But life isn't a guarantee. You might lose that job and have to sell that home and move into an apartment. It's not fun and it's not easy, but sometimes it's necessary. We cannot and should not eliminate risk from life. Sometimes to survive we and our spouse have to work at McDonald's.
 
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Paidiske

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I've spent time on the pastoral care team of a hospital. I'm under no illusion that anyone can control their health.

As to the idea that Christianity is individualistic; that's the exact opposite of what I get from the NT. We are a body. We function corporately, not individually, and to separate ourselves from that communal existence is to separate ourselves from Christ.

Christ's kingdom is not of this world; he's not going to set up an empire amongst empires. But his kingdom challenges the way of being of all human empires by creating a community which contrasts with it and enacts the reign of God.
 
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mkgal1

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We gamble when we buy those really expensive homes
I'm not referring to "really expensive homes". Any home in California can't be maintained with a part-time $12/hr job. Our neighbor and I have even had that discussion about the possibility of down-sizing....and, ironically, the rent on a ONE bedroom apartment is more than our mortgages (and he has a wife and children---so he wouldn't even be legally able to rent a one bedroom). We have people working full-time and living in their cars. It's not as simple as "just get to work already".

Special Correspondent Joanne Jennings reports how this trend exposes an unintended consequence of an economic boom for both the middle class and the working poor. This story is part of our ongoing series “Chasing the Dream,” about poverty and opportunity in America.

High rents force some in Silicon Valley to live in vehicles
 
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mkgal1

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Well I don't know what it is where you live, but unemployment where I live is payed by the employer not by the employee.
You're right. I had to look it up....but it's still based on an employee's work history (and is limited to what's been paid in on their behalf).
 
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rjs330

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You still haven't provided a convincing argument why people shouldn't get to work instead of living off unemployment. As an aside, part of the problems of unemployment is that illegals are here taking jobs from Americans.

And $12 an hour turn into $24 an hour when two people are working in a family. That's not bad. $12 is only the beggining. To tide you over until you get something better.
 
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Brotherly Spirit

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Personal relationship with God would at least be partially individual. When you pray quietly alone at home, it's only you except God. It's also communal relating the personal relationship to others. Being a child of God, you're a brother or sister to all his children. So I think it's about being selfless as an individual, learning to give yourself to God and those of him.

As for people's life circumstances, somethings we can control and others we can't. This is true for health and employment. Even healthy people can become sick or employed people lose their job. There's people who don't bother to try being healthy or employed. The difference is it does help if you try being healthy or employed, improves the probably, but it it's not a guarantee. While concerned about those who don't try, we shouldn't ignore the difficulty of those who do.
 
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mkgal1

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You still haven't provided a convincing argument why people shouldn't get to work instead of living off unemployment. As an aside, part of the problems of unemployment is that illegals are here taking jobs from Americans.

And $12 an hour turn into $24 an hour when two people are working in a family. That's not bad. $12 is only the beggining. To tide you over until you get something better.
This thread isn't [specifically] about that--so I'm not really interested in going back and forth on it. Looking for a job and going on interviews *is* "getting to work"....and your idea about two people working for $12/hr is making the assumption that the spouse wasn't working already.

This ideology that drives this *seems* to be motivated by an idea that people are only as valuable as the work they contribute. In a society with those morals, people are dehumanized...and stripped of their full dignity. Sort of like this:

>>>At the top sits the powerful....the wealthy...the dictator; a minority class, who own the means of production (factories, buildings, corporations, and who typically wields state power) and who exploit the majority class, the working class, to make profits for themselves at the expense of working people’s labor, time and energy.<<<<<<<<

Does it ring any bells that there's already been a society that slaughtered the weak, the infirm, the ones in wheelchairs, the old, and the young children (because they weren't deemed as "contributing" enough)? Is that really something you see that's any sort of parallel to Christ?
 
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mkgal1

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This article helps to clarify the complex issue of addressing racism, classism, and Nationalism....and how that shouldn't be seen as a political issue:
In the age of Trump, tired are the peacemakers

The Linked Article Above said:
It was a recurring image in my mind in those days of heightened religious zeal, and adulthood never stole the dream from me. I remained convinced that the teachings of the Christian faith held the greatest promise for overcoming racism.

This is a common desire among Christians of all political stripes. I grew up in a conservative evangelical culture, and many right-wing Republicans I knew believed that Christianity had the potential to tear down the walls of racial division, and they hoped it would happen.

But like many whites, I thought of racism and reconciliation in terms of individual relationships rather than in terms of laws, systems and institutions. The true scope of what justice might mean had not occurred to me.


And then in the age of Trump, things fell apart. They had been unraveling for years, ever since America elected its first black president, setting off a slow motion backlash among some whites. In President Obama’s second term there came a staggering rush of video footage filmed on cellphones showing an established pattern of police brutality against African-Americans.

And there was a growing popular awareness that America’s history had been literally whitewashed in the popular imagination, glossing over the dark decades of Jim Crow. For me it took the form of movies like “13th,” which traces the roots of mass incarceration, and from hearing, for the first time, about the Tulsa race riots of 1921 and the destruction of the business district once known as the “Black Wall Street.” As I read more about this episode and others like it, I asked friends and acquaintances if they too knew about these things. They did not.

But new calls for racial justice and talk of systemic white supremacy — a system set up during Jim Crow with continuing consequences today — mostly fell on deaf ears. Many white conservatives were sick of hearing about racism, believing that Democrats had cynically played the race card for black votes for decades.

It hasn’t just been some whites who have been on a journey of discovery regarding the ways in which white supremacy was institutionalized, with effects that continue today.

Jemar Tisby, a 36-year old PhD student at the University of Mississippi, was just a few years ago a rising star in the majority-white branch of American evangelical Christianity known as the Reformed movement.

Article Also said:
“I was searching for a way to communicate biblical truth to my students and their families in the Delta. I erred first by thinking they weren’t getting this truth in the first place and second by thinking that Reformed theology as formulated by white men was the solution. I would never write such a piece now. I need to take it down,” he said.

Now, Tisby and others at RAAN are in the process of changing the name of their organization. The word “Reformed” will no longer be part of the name. He told me this was a “pivot to emphasize African American concerns and highlight the black church tradition … while retaining a Reformed theological foundation.”

Trump’s election had capped his conviction that had been growing for years, that white Christians did not really care that much about what he had to say, even if they were willing to politely listen.

“It was almost a slap in the face to me,” Tisby told me.

“We said, like, ‘This man is dangerous to us.’ And I was like, ‘I go to the same churches with you. You’ve held my child in your arms. And none of that has impacted you to the point where you would change anything really. What has it really cost you, white evangelical, to have me in your presence? Versus, what does it cost me to be in your presence?” he said.

“Because you certainly aren’t going to black churches. We’re coming to you. And as we come to you, we’re saying, ‘Hey, our presence needs to actually make a difference here. It needs to actually change the way you do things. Otherwise, you’re just asking for uniformity, not unity.’”
 
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