How Republicans Are Warping Reality Around the Capitol Attack

[rjs330]

No you misunderstood the meaning of the sentence....that's my fault for not being more clear. I was comparing the different ways each side of the political aisle uses the same technique to entice voters.

Let's say that, without being judgemental, there's been an increase in the fringe elements of each side. We can chalk this up to things like growing income inequality and job insecurity...or it could be widespread dissatisfaction in the political process itself...or it could be that social media has elevated the opinions of people who aren't really that bright...but those opinions become popular because they offer easy answers and solutions.

So if we're going to generalize about these fringe opinions and point out their ugliness...I think we can do it like this (hypothetically of course)....

Both sides seek to explain a rather simple question...that question being "Why does very little change happen, or happen quickly, regardless of who is elected to office?"

The answer the fringe right has come up with is the deep state. It's a shadowy cabal of big money degenerates who are pulling the strings from the shadows to control everything. No one knows who they are (though it's believed they must be Democrats) and no one really knows their motives (though apparently the creation of pedophile clubs has gained traction as a motive under the QAnon conspiracy) but the fringe group that believes this stuff believes they must be stopped....and the best way to do it was to elect a political outsider who claimed to want to "drain the swamp" of these degenerates.

The fringe group on the other side has a different explanation....but no less ridiculous. They believe nothing changes because of....white people. White people built a nation to oppress non-white people and they see nothing wrong with this oppression. They think that white people are such a huge part of the problem that they contribute to the problem on a subconscious level...so any white person who doesn't agree with this viewpoint should be scorned and shamed and bullied into going along with it. The solution is to place as many non-white people who share this belief in positions of power, both political power, as the heads of businesses, and as the teachers of children....so they can be taught to believe in this viewpoint at an early age.

To say that both these views are ridiculous and hypocritical and even dangerous is fair. To say that they are both born out of a kernel of truth is fair too. Big money donors do have an undo influence on the political process and therefore have a larger impact than the average person. White people are guilty of a lot of racism and racial oppression in the past....and there's definitely still racism today.

The problem is that our politicians indulge these views for votes....out of political convenience. They definitely shouldn't...they should push back against them with the truth, even if it's unpopular. The problem is that they won't. They can't do anything if they aren't elected....and the more credence they give these views, the more people believe them.

There are plenty of us who believe in the deep state. Not quite the way you described it though.

I think most of us are it like this.

The Birth of the Deep State: A History

Certainly there is an aspect of outsider mega money influence that we see mostly in the Democratic party and leadership, but over all we don't see that in the entirety of the federal government. The deep state is more of the insider thing, that if you don't play the game they will do everything they can to destroy you. I think it will be very difficult for any outsider to become president again. It will be hard to find anyone who will want to take on the establishment ever again after what was done and is still being done to Trump.

And the whole white people are bad idea has moved beyond the fringe now. I think it uses to hover around the fringe, but it's become very mainstream when you look at who has been elected and how this stuff is now being taught to government employees and in various businesses across the nation. There are even indications that some teachers or schools are also trying to teach the badness of being white.

 

[timothyu]

There are plenty of us who believe in the deep state. Not quite the way you described it though.

Anybody paying attention will know that all governments are now ruled over by corporations, the new world government. Perhaps others missed it while still looking about locally and getting caught up in their little team sport of politics..

 

[Ana the Ist]

Everyone can read your posts so thats not needed.

Yup....lets see. Post 124 I compared the poorly defined term that vaguely describes what may, or may not, be a real problem that's cynically used for political gain on one side....to the exact same thing happening on the other side.

Another poster responds in a way that leads me to believe my post was misleading.

So I tried to elaborate the point more clearly in post 126. I tried to do so without any moral judgement...because the error in reasoning being made by certain elements on both sides is a common error of reasoning. It's not really a moral failing unless they use that error as an excuse to harm others....but few on each side are guilty of that.

The politicians however, who are willing to indulge this nonsense for personal gain, are immoral in my opinion and are causing harm. It's too difficult to indulge these beliefs for support and then condemn the people rioting over these "problems" after they've elected someone who claimed to believe as they do. If it seems like I was harsher about the left , I apologize, but I've found that whenever I have these discussions each side has a huge blind spot on their own side and if I remember correctly, that poster leans left.

Anyway, you replied with some implication that my post provided some insight into me as a person....and I'm guessing it's not flattering since you don't want to explain this insight.

I explained that my position was based on the fact that despite claiming to really strongly believe in something....I've yet to find a believer capable of explaining it. That's about as clear an example of groupthink as it gets. I also pointed out that instead of explaining, the response typically involves personal attacks on anyone questioning the belief....which pretty heavily indicates dogmatic thinking. People tend to get upset that someone dares question the authority of their dogma....as part of the rules of a dogmatic belief is that believers cannot question the truth of the dogma. It's true because the author of the dogma is to be trusted even without evidence.

Then you basically confirmed my belief by continuing the personal attack.

I want you to know that I don't hold it against you. Groupthink is easy to fall into....especially when you identify with the group and they threaten you with out-group status if you don't play along.

Personally, I don't see indulging falsehoods as being helpful....sometimes truth hurts, or is very complex. I think it's always important though, particularly if you're truly interested in solving a problem

 

[Ana the Ist]

There are plenty of us who believe in the deep state. Not quite the way you described it though.

I think most of us are it like this.

The Birth of the Deep State: A History

Does that feel like a good explanation of the deep state to you? I've heard a lot of explanations and honestly....that one feels like it's born out of resentment for the sheer size of the government more than anything.

Are there lazy government employees who do the bare minimum and nothing more? Of course, that's every job I've ever worked or heard about. Has the number of government employees grown? Obviously. I don't think that alone is a problem. Clearly the DMV wasn't needed before it was needed. The TSA wasn't always a place with a lot of employees. At one point we had no FBI and instead had a bunch of former criminals pretending to be detectives known as Pinkertons running around dispensing their version of justice as they pleased.

Are they seriously complaining about whistleblowers? Because I want whistleblowers. I want to know when my government is willfully and deliberately committing crimes against the people. I don't even care about them being anonymous....because their protections are a joke. I just want them to provide verifiable evidence...anyone can make an unproven accusation.

Certainly there is an aspect of outsider mega money influence that we see mostly in the Democratic party and leadership, but over all we don't see that in the entirety of the federal government. The deep state is more of the insider thing, that if you don't play the game they will do everything they can to destroy you. I think it will be very difficult for any outsider to become president again. It will be hard to find anyone who will want to take on the establishment ever again after what was done and is still being done to Trump.

I've never seen a concentrated attack on a president before....and while some of it was legitimate, and there were plenty of legitimate criticisms that weren't made, I'm not sure that I agree with the motives.

I think the left had finally figured out why they lost...and it's not the sort thing they could easily admit. They dismissed him as a non threat too early and lost too many votes to third party candidates. How do you fix that problem? Paint him as an existential threat they all need to unite against. He's a Russia loving traitor was a narrative that fizzled out. Painting him as a creepy womanizer wasn't going to last even in the MeToo year. Painting him as the source of white supremacy (whatever you want that to mean)....that consistently got the masses riled up. They finally found an enemy all their key demographics could rally against. They had proof too...he definitely said a couple of racist things...there's a German study somewhere that showed some actual white supremacists talked about him online favorably....and he's white.

And the whole white people are bad idea has moved beyond the fringe now. I think it uses to hover around the fringe, but it's become very mainstream when you look at who has been elected and how this stuff is now being taught to government employees and in various businesses across the nation. There are even indications that some teachers or schools are also trying to teach the badness of being white.

Yeah....I don't know how honest that mainstream belief is. I don't know how many people are true believers and how many just don't want to be called racist. I know that sounds silly but if you aren't actually racist....why would you care if someone calls you racist?

There's already a lawsuit against the racial political theory getting taught to schoolkids. They'll either have to admit that they're teaching children to judge each other based on race....which is a definite no no in public schools....or lie and try to work around it. The same goes for a lot of the proposals they've made. California wouldn't kill off their civil rights protection...realistically, what politician would?

It's going to be an interesting time to see where the rubber meets the road on these racial issues. I don't see any coalition of politicians working hard to kill the Civil Rights Act, the Equal Protection/Equal Justice clause, or convince this particular SCOTUS to overturn the rulings they already made on how the law doesn't guarantee equal outcomes....and disparities aren't proof of discrimination unless it can be proven they are the intended result.

Basically it's a massive uphill climb that I don't see anyone even attempting in 2 years, let alone achieving in 4.

 

[perplexed]

It will be hard to find anyone who will want to take on the establishment ever again after what was done and is still being done to Trump.

??? If I thought all political parties and the courts were run by the deep state and I was charismatic I would go into politics if the worst that could happen to me was what happened to Trump

 

[VirOptimus]

Yup....lets see. Post 124 I compared the poorly defined term that vaguely describes what may, or may not, be a real problem that's cynically used for political gain on one side....to the exact same thing happening on the other side.

Another poster responds in a way that leads me to believe my post was misleading.

So I tried to elaborate the point more clearly in post 126. I tried to do so without any moral judgement...because the error in reasoning being made by certain elements on both sides is a common error of reasoning. It's not really a moral failing unless they use that error as an excuse to harm others....but few on each side are guilty of that.

The politicians however, who are willing to indulge this nonsense for personal gain, are immoral in my opinion and are causing harm. It's too difficult to indulge these beliefs for support and then condemn the people rioting over these "problems" after they've elected someone who claimed to believe as they do. If it seems like I was harsher about the left , I apologize, but I've found that whenever I have these discussions each side has a huge blind spot on their own side and if I remember correctly, that poster leans left.

Anyway, you replied with some implication that my post provided some insight into me as a person....and I'm guessing it's not flattering since you don't want to explain this insight.

I explained that my position was based on the fact that despite claiming to really strongly believe in something....I've yet to find a believer capable of explaining it. That's about as clear an example of groupthink as it gets. I also pointed out that instead of explaining, the response typically involves personal attacks on anyone questioning the belief....which pretty heavily indicates dogmatic thinking. People tend to get upset that someone dares question the authority of their dogma....as part of the rules of a dogmatic belief is that believers cannot question the truth of the dogma. It's true because the author of the dogma is to be trusted even without evidence.

Then you basically confirmed my belief by continuing the personal attack.

I want you to know that I don't hold it against you. Groupthink is easy to fall into....especially when you identify with the group and they threaten you with out-group status if you don't play along.

Personally, I don't see indulging falsehoods as being helpful....sometimes truth hurts, or is very complex. I think it's always important though, particularly if you're truly interested in solving a problem

Tl, dr.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Tl, dr.

Oh I forgot...you prefer simple and short answers.

Summary= you're wrong.

 

[VirOptimus]

Oh I forgot...you prefer simple and short answers.

Summary= you're wrong.

No, I’m not.