• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

How Protestantism Redefined Marriage

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Dorothea, May 16, 2012.

  1. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    I don't see how we stop legal government and state-run procedures, Rus. :confused: My main concern is the government forcing clergy to marry same sex individuals in their churches.
     
  2. Protoevangel

    Protoevangel Smash the Patriarchy!

    +1,166
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    In Relationship
    Because we are the government (in the US anyway - theoretically). We vote.

    Being Christians first, our requirement is to vote as a Christian.

    Now... Christians are called to live righteously. Voluntarily. But forcing someone else to live by God's rules? That's where the issue get's a little greyer for me. I can't see myself approving of the lifestyle, by word or vote... But... I don't know. Sometimes I think the only thing I can do is remove myself from the Governmental process, and let the rest of society fight it out, and just live and love.
     
  3. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    I think the problem I have with Christians forcing a Church State or Government is that that's not what I believe this country was founded on. It has some Judeo-Christians beliefs, but truly, it's the freedom of one to exercise their right to worship in their churches (or wherever) as they believe, so I find it kind of strange to try and make a Secular country into a Church theocratic country or something along those lines. Am I making any sense?

    To the bolded: that's how I feel about it, too.
     
  4. Protoevangel

    Protoevangel Smash the Patriarchy!

    +1,166
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    In Relationship
    Yes you do make sense, but what you say does bring up a question in my mind... And I really hope I don't come across as argumentative, I'm just musing out loud.

    I wonder if it matters what the country was founded on. If we have the power to change it, it should be our responsibility to do so, if God really is our God (as opposed to the Constitution or Government or "the founders" being our God).

    Even so, that doesn't change my misgivings about forcing external compliance when a change of heart is what is really needed.

    Gah!
    [​IMG]

    It sure doesn't make for an "easy answer" does it?
     
  5. gracefullamb

    gracefullamb Junior Member

    +135
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    My point about California is they already have Civil Unions but they are suing through the court and keep petitioning to have it put on the ballot to have marriage. Why, What is the point of demanding the second? I have my suspicions based on court cases from the East Coast where they have already passed same sex marriage or even just civil unions.

    This isn't a simple matter of lets just give them civil unions and they will leave the church alone, they already proved that is a lie. As far as it being separation of church and state so it really doesn't matter to us I disagree and not just because we vote on what the law should be or the politicians who will vote on the law. As I stated through lawsuits they have already shown they may not want us to dictate to them but by golly they are going to dictate to the church telling us what we can't do.

    Currently in Kansas one of the counties is debating over passing an ordinance that will make it illegal for a church to refuse to rent their place of worship or hall to same sex couple wanting to hold a "marriage" ceremony. Which is odd since Kansas has a Constitutional amendment banning both same sex marriage and same sex civil unions. Makes me wonder what purpose the ordinance would have other than try to get around that Constitutional Amendment.

    A Methodist church in New Jersey was sued for refusing to rent its property for a gay civil union service. .

    Perry v. Schwarzenegger the court rules that the Southern Baptist Church and Roman Catholic Church teaching against same sex unions and same sex well sexual behavior is a sin, is in fact legally hate speech.

    In New York an Orthodox Jewish University refused married couple housing to a same sex couple they were sued and ordered by the court to open their housing to all couples.

    Two Knights of Columbus halls were sued for refusing to rent their hall out for a same sex marriage. The one is in Canada and pointless to the discussion but the other was on the East coast, I'll have to ask my dad the actual city & state because I can't remember. Anyhow the case in the USA they lost the court told them they could not deny renting their hall based on their religious beliefs, it was a violation of the same sex couple's civil rights.
    For those unaware the Knights of Columbus is a Catholic non-profit fraternal organization and members must be in good standing at their parish in order to join.

    In California and Massachusetts the courts told Catholic Adoption agencies they could not deny a same sex couple in a partnership the right to adopt through them.

    These next cases I don't remember the exact state, sorry. The one is somewhere in the Southwest a Christian couple who owned a photography business and only photographed Christian events and ceremonies was sued for refusing to photograph the "wedding" of two women, they instead advised them of a list of photographers that would be more than happy to take the job and would do just a good a job as them. The couple lost the case due to discrimination and closed their business.

    A pastor who was a licensed marriage counselor was sued and lost for refusing to counsel two "married" women, instead referring them to another therapist who wouldn't have a problem.

    So I have to ask is it really a matter of separation of Church and state and it won't effect us if we do nothing or if we go along with civil unions?
     
  6. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    Yes, that's how I see it. A change of heart is needed, and that isn't done through government institutions, imo. It's done from person to person in the local communities and such. Sure, we can vote for whomever we think may help (I'm not too confident any politician is going to help that much), but I kinda think of myself as a traveler on this earth, and as Mother Gavrilia would say, and just try to follow what she and others have done (which I'm doing poorly at it thus far :(), in trying to do what I can in my local communities.


    Eh, I suppose not, but I don't worry about it much. :blush:
     
  7. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    I realize all of that, graceful, but it is my belief that with the sign of the times, gay marriage will be legal in every single state in the U.S. and all the countries in the world one day. All we can do is pray and vote. And my priest believes as I do that some day, even the churches will be forced to wed same-sex individuals. Does that mean we think that's great? No. We just know the way of the world and where direction it is headed, and we're called as Christians to stay vigilant (steadfast in our faith), and show love and almsgiving to all. I wouldn't put any stock in government officials.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2012
  8. CaliforniaJosiah

    CaliforniaJosiah Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,226
    Lutheran
    Private
    US-Republican

    So, in all countries dominately Eastern Orthodox, the government doesn't issue licenses, there are no divorce court decisions, the government doesn't in any way get involved in spousal or familial issues? ALL this is done - exclusively - by the church?


    Is that because of Protestantism?




    Is that because of Protestantism?


    :confused:


    .
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2012
  9. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    So, graceful, basically, how I see it is what we're doing (or are able to do) is slowing down the inevitable.
     
  10. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    Josiah, maybe you should email the blogger since you're asking her these questions.
     
  11. Luckster

    Luckster That One Guy

    63
    +1
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    US-Republican
    Yeah, I just wanted to say that like most things on HuffPost, the author is wrong. Marriage was always a civil issue with the "marriage ceremony" being nothing more than a blessing and evolving into what we know it today. The Protestants were, if anything, late to the party.
     
  12. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

    +2,056
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Proto already said it in part, GL said another part of it.

    We are in the world but not of the world.
    Yet we live here. We are supposed to act within the world and do what little we can for others. Part of loving our neighbor is, as I see it, trying to make our homes and communities as safe and godly as possible. When I say "godly", I do not mean forcing faith. I mean encouraging good behavior and discouraging bad.

    We live in a strange time when it seems that we CAN speak with a public voice, though that voice is now drowned out in a total cacaphony of conflicting worldviews. While we do NOT rule our countries, as we should in a genuine democracy, particularly in terms of ruling the wealthy, we ARE allowed at this time to to take a stand on some things. I think there are two reasons :
    1) our plurocracy thinks those issues do not affect them; they don't care, as long as we don't make lobbying a capital offense, for example, as I would if I were king.
    2) because the enemies of faith are allowed to vote FOR ungodliness, the rules of the game (for now) still allow us to vote against them. I think spiritual powers of darkness are moving this vast spread of publicly-approved ungodliness, and we ought to disapprove of it; to affirm that sin is still sin and that it still destroys us.

    So the idea of "separation of church and state" is used AGAINST us just as much as for us - to say that religious views must be kept out of public policy, that only irreligious views may be admitted.

    If we do nothing at this time when the tide is turning towards darkness in our public morality, then we and our children will live with the consequences. And one of the consequences is surely that, once sexual immorality has achieved approval at any point, it becomes a crime to condemn the immorality - which I believe we are supposed to do. And so it will be a crime to say that all of these things are sin, and the person or people who fail to approve them, be it clergy in church, an adoption agency in Boston, a photographer in Phoenix (real cases that have already happened), or any of us or our organizations, will be subject to criminal penalties for standing up for godliness and refusing to (in those examples) give children to same-sex "couples" to "adopt" or to photograph a lesbian "wedding", and others that GL pointed out.
     
  13. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 scavenging in the wasteland for gasoline

    +5,121
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    Great post, Rus.

     
  14. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    I truly understand what you're saying, Rus. And I agree that we should stand up for what we believe and be steadfast in our faith. No doubt. I'm sorry that I will not get that involved in politics, I'm hoping, ever again. All it did was cause me heartache, emotional stress, anger, frustration, and obsession over the whole political process, politicians, etc. It became an idol for me, where I focused more on that than being a Christian. I will not allow myself to be in that trapped prison again. I also think it does little good to worry ourselves to any point of total anger, stressing out, etc. over all that's happening and will happen because we have very little control over the whole situation. We vote (if we wish) and we pray (which is quite powerful, if you ask me). I help in ways I can through my community. That's it. I believe I have zero effect on the federal government. This may be because of my being enmeshed in the political cess pool for as long as I was, but I still would like to keep my distance.
     
  15. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

    +2,056
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Sure.
    The main thing is that we should do what we CAN do, and the whole trouble is in discerning that. The idea that we can accomplish everything via politics is even more deceptive than the idea that we can do nothing and I think the former is a grand illusion encouraged by the powers-that-be; that they hold onto power by getting us to believe that WE hold the power. I believe we can't do much, but there are a few things we CAN make a difference on in politics. We can't stop the tide now rising, but we can slow it down a little.
     
  16. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    ah, well, I'm in total agreement with you there, Rus. :)
     
  17. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 scavenging in the wasteland for gasoline

    +5,121
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    I do note that Orthodox Christians are more diverse and willing to listen politically than Catholics. Catholicism online is 100% pure Republican tea party politics through and through. There is a litmus test for who is the "real" Catholic and that really is this: do you vote Republican 100% of the time?

    Politics is complex. If you're a public employee like me, a union man, pro-environment, believe in pensions, love animals and passionately hate animal cruelty and abuse, hate the out-of-control hedonistic level of capitalism that has been going on for the last decade, hate outsourcers, and detest hair-trigger war hawks, then I have a great difficulty voting GOP. If you HATE abortion and homosexual pandering as much as I do, you find it hard to vote democrat also. So it's never a picnic with me. I'm too intellectually-honest and complex in my political views to just play team sport party politics and go around mocking and harrassing people online for their voting preferences.
     
  18. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +1,661
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    Wow, you and I are on the same page on those political issues...although, I'm not sure they're all political issues, but were just made so. :confused: But I'd have to say I just am disgusted by those things.
     
  19. Virgil the Roman

    Virgil the Roman Young Fogey & Monarchist-Distributist . . .

    +1,195
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-American-Solidarity
    I agree with ya in some ways. I'm a little different from the average 'republican' and GOPer and because I'm a Traditional Roman Catholic Christian, I'm quite drastically different from your average Liberal 'Catholic' or Neocon Novus Ordo religionist.

    I'm prolife, pro-protectionism, anti-'freetrade', pro-gun, anti-war, anti-'Military-Industrial Complex', anti-Megacorporations, pro-small businesses and shoppes. Against Lobbyist/Lobbying, Zionism, Bolshevism, Communism, Marxism, Socialism, Corporatism, National Socialism, corrupted 'Usurious Capitilism'/corporate-controlled capitalism and governments, or corporations being able to control or donate large sums of monies to our gov't or buy it out. Anti-Bankster. Anti-bank, pro-credit union. Pro Sound money (i.e. Silver, Gold, Platinum backed money; ax the Federal reserve and the debt-money system). And I'm against Corporate Person-hood, and these governmental agencies/depts: Dept of Homeland Security, Fed. Dept of Education, EPA, FBI, CIA, NSA, TSA, etc.

    For abolishing: Abortion, Selective Service, the IRS, the Federal Income Tax, Militarism, large swathes of the over-extended American empire, Property taxes (if doable), reforming the entitlement system to manageable system and to actually some day get the monies taken from my paycheque into a retirement fund of some sort . . . (and get the government away from and out of marriage altogether; make it totally a private or church matter with no governmental authority or power to touch or coerce or force any radical anti-Christian redefinition of marriage whatsoever).

    For scaling back America's foreign involvement to the minimal necessary, cutting all foreign aid. Instead encouraging private humanitarian organisations (rather than taxing the poor people of rich countries to pay and enrich the wealthy people of poor countries. . . ) and a for a simple flat-tax, if abolish the Federal Income tax isn't feasible or doable.

    And I oppose Freemasonry and all its machinations wherever it flourishes or spreads its clandestine tentacles . . .

    (But that's just me.) I'll be quiet now.


    Forgive my ramble. I'm a little tired and I tended to 'vent' and go off on a tangent there. If I violated any rules, I apologise and will edit my post accordingly if informed, notified, or requested. :)



    :smoke:


    :smoke:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2012
  20. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

    +1,665
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single

    Under the Ottomon system each confessional community governed its own social affairs. This system is still used in Israel (and i believe in Lebanon). It was in use in Greece till the 1980's and a similiar system is still in use in Egypt in some capacity. In fact the violent outbreak against Copts recently was over this very issue of ecclesiastical divorce.
     
Loading...