How pastors and health experts are struggling to close the vaccine gap among White evangelicals

[Navair2]

You may not make a vaccinated person sick, but if you get medical care, you’re not the only one who pays for it. Everyone—employers, government, and all us who have health insurance ultimately foot the bill.

While I respect your position, I disagree.
I have insurance, and by God's grace, I have good health.

That may not last and I may end up re-thinking my current position...
But for now, I see no reason to go along with the crowd, thank you very much.
In a few years or a few months, perhaps I will change my mind.

Don't you think that that should be up to me?
I do, and unless or until I decide otherwise, no amount of pressure from those that differ with me is going to make me change my mind.
I have to be persuaded for myself that it's the right thing to do, OK?

I'm also sure that those of you that are atheists can appreciate that way of thinking.

Remember John Donne? “No man is a island…” Especially in the 21st century, we all depend on each other, and we’re all affected by what other people do.

No, we are not.

The man who lives in a cabin in Canada or in the Australian Outback, for example, minding his own business and living off the land, will in no way affect anything in this world.
When he dies, no one will miss him.
While he was alive, no one really cared about him except his own...
Think of people like me similar to how you would think of people like him.

Again, I don't depend on society for my welfare.
I depend on the Lord who loved me and gave Himself for me.

That said, I respect all of your opinions, even if I don't happen to agree with them.



May God bless each and everyone of you in the days and years ahead.

 

[RDKirk]

While I respect your position, I disagree.
I have insurance, and by God's grace, I have good health.

You keep saying "I depend on the Lord." Yet...you have insurance.

 

[RDKirk]

God created a universe that runs consistently by laws He established. He created the biology of our bodies, and that biology runs consistently according to laws that He established. Science is the discovery of the natural laws God created: "All nature and science follow the sound of Your voice," as the song goes.

In the distant past, people learned enough about God's biological laws to know that setting a broken femur properly would enable it to heal to usefulness. In more recent years, people learned God's physical law that the curved top surface of a wing creates lift as air passes over it.

This is all discovering how God's creation operating as He designed it.

And that includes vaccines, which do nothing more than follow the biological laws of God.

 

[Navair2]

You keep saying "I depend on the Lord." Yet...you have insurance.

For now I do.

And soldier?
Try not to look down on this former sailor who loves the Lord, OK?
I have health insurance because I'm still here in this world, I live in America, I'm required to by law.

I'm also required, by the Lord, to obey the duly appointed authorities... and that includes those that I didn't vote for and whose ideas and policies I do not agree with.

God created a universe that runs consistently by laws He established. He created the biology of our bodies, and that biology runs consistently according to laws that He established. Science is the discovery of the natural laws God created: "All nature and science follow the sound of Your voice," as the song goes.

In the distant past, people learned enough about God's biological laws to know that setting a broken femur properly would enable it to heal to usefulness. In more recent years, people learned God's physical law that the curved top surface of a wing creates lift as air passes over it.

This is all discovering how God's creation operating as He designed it.

And that includes vaccines, which do nothing more than follow the biological laws of God.

You might wish to look into what science really is, especially nowadays.

It's a bit more than what it looks like on the surface, and I happen to know that we as men are doing things in the name of science that really should not be meddled with...
Things like GMO to develop "better" food sources and DNA manipulation in order to develop "better" vaccines.
That same manipulation involves teaching the body's cells to react to something that simply is. not. there.
It's like nothing we've ever seen up until now, and frankly, that scares me almost as much as being on the wrong side of God's wrath.

My question is, in the light of this, why are so many people trusting in science, and not trusting in their Creator?
See Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, and John 3:19-20 for the answer to that.


I'm all replied out.
Good afternoon and good evening to all of you.

 

[Nithavela]

nvmd

 

[Strathos]

You keep saying "I depend on the Lord." Yet...you have insurance.

Hasn't anyone ever heard the story about the pious man in the flood?

Spoiler

A storm descends on a small town, and the downpour soon turns into a flood. As the waters rise, the local preacher kneels in prayer on the church porch, surrounded by water. By and by, one of the townsfolk comes up the street in a canoe.

"Better get in, Preacher. The waters are rising fast."

"No," says the preacher. "I have faith in the Lord. He will save me."

Still the waters rise. Now the preacher is up on the balcony, wringing his hands in supplication, when another guy zips up in a motorboat.

"Come on, Preacher. We need to get you out of here. The levee's gonna break any minute."

Once again, the preacher is unmoved. "I shall remain. The Lord will see me through."

After a while the levee breaks, and the flood rushes over the church until only the steeple remains above water. The preacher is up there, clinging to the cross, when a helicopter descends out of the clouds, and a state trooper calls down to him through a megaphone.

"Grab the ladder, Preacher. This is your last chance."

Once again, the preacher insists the Lord will deliver him.

And, predictably, he drowns.

A pious man, the preacher goes to heaven. After a while he gets an interview with God, and he asks the Almighty, "Lord, I had unwavering faith in you. Why didn't you deliver me from that flood?"

God shakes his head. "What did you want from me? I sent you two boats and a helicopter."

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Really? The unvaccinated are certain to die?

Last I heard, the death rate from Covid was less than 0.2% I get that the death rate from LIFE is 100%, but comparing the two is problematic, at best.

Might want to check your premises.

Yes...It is a statistical fact that 100% of all unvaccinated people will eventually die someday.

 

[jayem]

Don't you think that that should be up to me?
I do, and unless or until I decide otherwise, no amount of pressure from those that differ with me is going to make me change my mind.
I have to be persuaded for myself that it's the right thing to do, OK?

Of course, it's your decision. I never said vaccination should be mandatory. I'm just pointing out the possibility--not a certainty--that nonimmunized persons could be costly. I've seen predictions that health insurers may raise premiums 11-15% in late 2021 and into 2022. If large numbers of our population are unvaccinated, and actually contract Covid, even higher insurance costs are in the future. Which affects our employers, Medicare/Medicaid, and everyone.

Health Insurance Costs Predicted To Rise Due To Covid-19 - DBT

 

[hedrick]

Numbers from the UK are sobering. They have good vaccination numbers, but the remaining unvaccinated people are being taken down by the delta variant. Delta hasn't hit the US very badly yet. IHME still thinks we're OK, but it's going to be a race between vaccination and variants.

 

[Crwth]

You criticized a post that obviously was using a mortality rate. I cited a page giving risk of death across the whole population, which is what you're talking about, by age, as well as a reasonable estimate of mortality rate.

smh

I criticized this post:

I agree, he should stick to helping his parishioners prepare for the afterlife. They're gonna need it if they don't vaccinate.

"Mortality rate?" No, it's just a blithe comment that implies that anyone who doesn't vaccinate is going to die.

--> which of course is the absurdity to which I was responding. <--

And in pointing out how absurd that blithe comment was, I provided a number - the forecast number of people who have died, or are expected to die thus far from the virus - i.e. 600k/330m - or 0.2%, which isn't of course anyone who doesn't vaccinate.

Missing that point, they then responded to that 0.2% number with this post:

It's more around 3 %

Again - smh.

Remember the claim - anyone who doesn't vaccinate is going to die.

And now here you are taking on some sort of misguided defense of THAT post (and, mind you, not their original claim), claiming the 3% was "obviously .. using a mortality rate." How am I supposed to respond to that?

Do you not see how irrelevant to the actual point both of your comments were? Who cares what the "risk of death is across the whole population?" Who cares if the precise number (however defined) is 3% or even 0.2%? **

Why?

Because that's NOT-THE-POINT! The number isn't 100% as claimed! In fact, it's so far from 100% as to be utterly absurd! (which of course IS the point)

** Now watch - someone will criticize me for 'not caring' about those who've died from this virus.

 

[Crwth]

Yes...It is a statistical fact that 100% of all unvaccinated people will eventually die someday.

Yes... it's also a statistical fact that 100% of all vaccinated people will eventually die someday.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Maybe that pastor should quit worrying about competing for his audience and recognize his audience is savvy enough to know when he's just parroting the government line and would prefer he stick to the gospel instead.

...just a thought.

Sounds to me like certain people have decided which "gospel" to believe, and it's not the one which the Church has been preaching for two thousand years.

If you go out seeking the counsel of vipers, don't be shocked when you discover you've been poisoned.

It would be a pastoral failing to not be concerned with the physical needs of Christ's flock, and thus to give counsel for medical treatment.

The Gospel of Tucker Carlson is, like all false gospels, anathema.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

smh

I criticized this post:
"Mortality rate?" No, it's just a blithe comment that implies that anyone who doesn't vaccinate is going to die.

Those that don't get COVID-19 vaccinations are more likely to get COVID-19 and kill loved ones ,that they passed it on to. Also mild COVID-19 causes scarring of the lungs and other complications of the body, that will be noticed months or possibly years later. So basically Nithavela right.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Yes... it's also a statistical fact that 100% of all vaccinated people will eventually die someday.

 

[Crwth]

Those that don't get COVID-19 vaccinations are more likely to get COVID-19 and kill loved ones ,that they passed it on to. Also mild COVID-19 causes scarring of the lungs and other complications of the body, that will be noticed months or possibly years later. So basically Nithavela right.

Good grief.

 

[RDKirk]

For now I do.

And soldier?
Try not to look down on this former sailor who loves the Lord, OK?
I have health insurance because I'm still here in this world, I live in America, I'm required to by law.

Nope, nobody in the US is forced to have health insurance by law. And that penalty has been removed.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Good grief.

Is the truth bad or something? I cant help the blind or brain washed.

 

[FireDragon76]

Absolutely. Mistrust of government—along with deep skepticism of science and expert opinion—derive from human psychology. It’s normal to be wary in an unfamiliar situation. It’s part of the primal self-preservation instinct all animal species exhibit. But in some members of our species it’s magnified to a degree where it becomes maladaptive. Conspiratorial thinking is an aspect of the same mental phenomenon. The link is from the APA website. It’s an interview with a psychologist discussing conspiratorial beliefs. It’s easy reading, and she makes perfect sense.

Speaking of Psychology: Why people believe in conspiracy theories, with Karen Douglas, PhD

It's not all that natural in this case, it's been cultivated in that subculture and by politicians for decades.

 

[Crwth]

I agree, he should stick to helping his parishioners prepare for the afterlife. They're gonna need it if they don't vaccinate.

...and your comment to that was:

Those that don't get COVID-19 vaccinations are more likely to get COVID-19 and kill loved ones ,that they passed it on to. Also mild COVID-19 causes scarring of the lungs and other complications of the body, that will be noticed months or possibly years later. So basically Nithavela right.

...to which I responded:

Good grief.

And for that, you responded:

Is the truth bad or something? I cant help the blind or brain washed.

Let me restate the point - cuz you're not the only one here that seems to have missed it - and missed it completely.

Nithavela asserted that those who don't vaccinate will die. That's the point to which I was responding, the assertion that anyone who doesn't get vaccinated will die. Perhaps she was being hyperbolic. Don' t know, she hasn't responded. Nevertheless, you seem to agree with that point - er, at least "basically." But how someone can agree, even "basically" with such an absurd point as everyone will die who doesn't take the vaccine is what evoked a [I believe] well-deserved

For that, you now think I'm "blind or brain washed," for believing that "truth to be bad."

Look - please - is Covid dangerous, at least to some? Yes. Not denying the damage it can do. Is it communicable? Yes, that's quite obvious too. Are family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, anyone in proximity at risk if someone contracts it? Yes, that too is obvious.

But - will everyone... no, no.... better yet, HAS everyone who's contracted the virus died? That is the basic point here, ok? And the answer to that is a humongous, gigantic, unequivocal NO.

 

[Nithavela]

...and your comment to that was:
...to which I responded:

And for that, you responded:
Let me restate the point - cuz you're not the only one here that seems to have missed it - and missed it completely.

Nithavela asserted that those who don't vaccinate will die. That's the point to which I was responding, the assertion that anyone who doesn't get vaccinated will die. Perhaps she was being hyperbolic. Don' t know, she hasn't responded. Nevertheless, you seem to agree with that point - er, at least "basically." But how someone can agree, even "basically" with such an absurd point as everyone will die who doesn't take the vaccine is what evoked a [I believe] well-deserved

For that, you now think I'm "blind or brain washed," for believing that "truth to be bad."

Look - please - is Covid dangerous, at least to some? Yes. Not denying the damage it can do. Is it communicable? Yes, that's quite obvious too. Are family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, anyone in proximity at risk if someone contracts it? Yes, that too is obvious.

But - will everyone... no, no.... better yet, HAS everyone who's contracted the virus died? That is the basic point here, ok? And the answer to that is a humongous, gigantic, unequivocal NO.

I'm actually male.