How much schism is too much schism?

[HTacianas]

Looking back on the schisms of Church history, do you consider any of them serious enough that any of the Churches involved in any of the schisms can no longer provide salvation to its members?

 

[archer75]

Reasonable question for us EO and the RCC. The "in or out" attitude seems hard to apply to real-world circumstances.

 

[TuxAme]

Well, only the EO and CC have valid holy orders (depending on who you ask), so there's many sacraments that those outside of these Churches are missing.

All schism is too much schism, but it's most serious when apostolic succession is lost.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Salvation does not derive from the church but from God's mercy, grace, and drawing those He chooses to himself. Your church will not save you.

 

[dzheremi]

Looking back on the schisms of Church history, do you consider any of them serious enough that any of the Churches involved in any of the schisms can no longer provide salvation to its members?

If that is the case, it wouldn't be for me to know or say so. I certainly don't believe that everyone claiming to belong to the Church actually does (take that as you will), and with that in mind, it is not responsible for me or in my view for anyone to play gatekeeper. God's prerogatives are His own.

We can say that such and such are out of communion, but then if God was somehow absent from everywhere where we who are in communion might be, the question could be reasonably asked how anyone ever goes from being outside of communion to being in communion. Who or what brought them there? The lure of coffee hour? The baklava? Their nice neighbor who invited them? Is it just luck or receptiveness according to a particular disposition, or do we believe that each and every person is brought together by God, led by the Holy Spirit to worship Him -- the uncreated and undivided perfect Holy Trinity -- in spirit and in truth? (The second one! The second one!)

I was not born of Egyptian, Syrian, Indian, etc. parents or religious heritage, and a great many "Greeks" are similarly not Greek. And yet here we all are, in our respective places, trying to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If it is all pointless because we did not recognize in life the right guy in a nifty hat, then may the Lord have mercy on us and forgive us our sins and accept our sincere desire to be in true union with Him in our transition from this life; and of course if it is not pointless, then we will continue to affirm as we always have that He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom shall have no end. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Then the final judgment from the Just Judge will come, and we will know with no more speculation.

But until then what more can we really say but Lord, have mercy? May the schisms of the Church be healed, and all people be reconciled to the one Christ, and live in peace and brotherhood in the Church which is His mystical body.

 

[TuxAme]

Salvation does not derive from the church but from God's mercy, grace, and drawing those He chooses to himself. Your church will not save you.

God's Church is His vehicle of salvation, dispensing His sacraments (which very much save) to the faithful. You can't totally discount the pillar of truth.

 

[FireDragon76]

History is full of episcopal musical chairs and arguing over who is the Greatest in the Kingdom. Somehow, I don't think that's essential to the Christian faith, though.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I do not think schism has hindered the ability of those Churches whom follow the Creed to offer the message of Salvation to anyone. A Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental and Protestant can affirm the saving reality of Christ and the good news each with their individual caveats so that it seems to me infinitely possible that salvation preaching, even imperfect preaching of Christ (as I believe exists in Non-Orthodox Churches), is not necessarily negated by schism. This can extend even to some sacraments, such as Baptism, where as long as it is done to a certain formula it doesn’t matter who does the baptizing, it is still a real baptism because God is the one saving not the presbyter/member of a particular Church. So long as Christ is still being preached along the lines of traditional Trinitarian theology.

Schism does seem to change the nature of other Sacraments, such as the Eucharist which I cannot consider to be a real Eucharist outside of the Orthodox Church. To be separate from the immediate community of Christ’s faithful and not take part in the Eucharist is something less than the full reality and intimacy with Christ. It is to commit oneself to perhaps something different than the body of Christ (church).

The only groups I’m willing to doubt in their claims to salvation are those who have a theology counter to the creed. I don’t believe such Churches offer anything of spiritual value to their faithful.

 

[TuxAme]

History is full of episcopal musical chairs and arguing over who is the Greatest in the Kingdom. Somehow, I don't think that's essential to the Christian faith, though.

This issue isn't about who's "greatest", but who's right, and it's a question that needs to be discussed.

 

[prodromos]

Salvation does not derive from the church but from God's mercy, grace, and drawing those He chooses to himself. Your church will not save you.

The Church is the body of Christ. Salvation very much derives from being grafted into that body.

 

[Greg J.]

The Bible is extremely clear about how one is saved. The only "complication" is when extra-Biblical assertions, which are contrary to Scripture, are believed, or consequences in Scripture are believed to be causes.

Now that we have forgotten what "believe" means, it must be explained, but not defined in a hard and fast way, because it must use words that people understand differently. It does not mean intellectual assent, attending any church, having Christian parents, or any form of "going through the motions of any aspect of Christianity," and does not mean anything a person can choose or reject to do, including being baptized or taking communion. (The latter are signs that a person has chosen to be obedient to God.)

What "believe" does mean is genuinely believing that the Lord God Jesus Christ is real, He died for us, and was raised from the dead (for one's own benefit, I would add, accept Him as "my" God and believe all He said). Given a proper understanding of what believing is, this verse is an accurate description of what it takes to be saved:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16, 1984 NIV)

Plenty of others:

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Romans 10:9-10, 1984 NIV) (The confession, along with thankfulness, et al., must come from the heart.)

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3:21, 1984 NIV) (... which also, btw, explains what the baptism is that saves—a response to God of commitment of a good conscience to Him.)

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (Hebrews 7:25, 1984 NIV)

I am extremely sick of hearing how some organized body of believers is necessary for a person to be saved. Who is it that died for you? Who is it that is must be your Lord? Who is it that knows how to rearrange a person's (spiritual) atoms so they are no longer condemned?

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:13, 1984 NIV)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9, 1984 NIV)

Anyone that thinks they must partially depend on anything or anyone in the physical realm for salvation, believes that Jesus Christ is not sufficient for salvation. If anyone teaches something other than salvation is by God's grace through faith that only God gives, then they have something "special" knowledge to "boast" about which proves they have rejected this verse as Truth. And they are in danger of fulfilling Matthew 7:15-23 or Matthew 18:6-7. If you are in the fellowship of those who teach things contrary to the Bible, then cut them off and move on. Jesus Christ is all you need for eternal life. Commit forever to Him from your heart and you are saved.

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. (Matthew 18:8-9, 1984 NIV)

What God has commanded and entrusted to people that call themselves by His name is to tell people about Jesus, and make those who believe that Good News into disciples of Jesus. Trying to exert more power over people than that is manipulation, which is at its heart, the sin of witchcraft (trying to exert supernatural power).

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:20, 1984 NIV)