How much do we (Christian's ) understand?

Jesusfann777888

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I read an article not so long ago about a non-chtistian having a discussion about knowing Jesus is real and that it's the end but he can't believe.

Now, this sound's paradoxical but if someone know's but can't believe, is there something that is spiritually preventing them, like they want to but their being stopped?
 

Bobber

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I read an article not so long ago about a non-chtistian having a discussion about knowing Jesus is real and that it's the end but he can't believe.

Now, this sound's paradoxical but if someone know's but can't believe, is there something that is spiritually preventing them, like they want to but their being stopped?
I'd tell that person reject the devil's lie! God has COMMANDED all men to believe, COMMANDED.....1 John 3:23 and he wouldn't tell them something to do and not have them able to do it. Such would be unjust and God is not unjust!
 
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trophy33

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I read an article not so long ago about a non-chtistian having a discussion about knowing Jesus is real and that it's the end but he can't believe.

Now, this sound's paradoxical but if someone know's but can't believe, is there something that is spiritually preventing them, like they want to but their being stopped?

He must be born again. Its impossible to have a real trust in God without it.

God is a spirit and therefore only people born of the spirit can come to Him.

Rational knowledge of God's existence and of Jesus' existence is not enough.
 
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disciple Clint

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I read an article not so long ago about a non-chtistian having a discussion about knowing Jesus is real and that it's the end but he can't believe.

Now, this sound's paradoxical but if someone know's but can't believe, is there something that is spiritually preventing them, like they want to but their being stopped?
The difference between faith and knowledge: satan knows Jesus is the Son of God, but satan does not have faith in Jesus as his savior.
 
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Bob Crowley

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John 6:44 NIV - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 6:65 NIV - 'He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."'

For some reason these verses only appear in John, and not the other gospels. I don't claim to understand it, and I don't like it much, but this appears to be the case.

I've often said that the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. We had a discussion and argument before he disappeared into eternity with one almighty scream.

But during the proceedings at one point he blurted out "... I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

I was an atheist back then (1979) but even I had a sense of ethical unfairness. I argued back "That can't be right!"

He replied, "Oh, it's right all right. You can see that from here!" ("here" being his spiritual state immediately after death I'd presume). He was able to see some future events (or more accurately he was being shown - I'll give an example later).

But later in the same exchange he cried out "I was WILLING..." (to do the cruel stupid things that condemned him in the first place, and to keep doing them right to the end of his earthly life). I know that at least one (Catholic) uncle tried to warn him, but he just took no notice.

But I don't understand it, and it's a mystery, one that I don't like much.

The Bible also says God searches the heart, and I think that if He considers someone is wondering about Him and / or Christ, He'll do something to try to draw them. But we can still say "no".

On the future events, I said I was an atheist. He made a few predictions, some rather forbidding, but amongst the less disturbing were two items -

1. "You'll become a Christian" and

2. "You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is discourage you even more!"

Those statements were word for word. I became a Christian nearly 4 years later (late 1982 - he died in January 1979).

I also met a pastor for whom I developed an enormous amount of respect. But as the time came for me to leave his church (I got married and moved a fair distance from the parish, and he had cancer - he died about four months after I got married), he said to me in his office "I owe you an apology".

I asked him why. He replied, "You needed encouragement, and all I've done is to discourage you even more!"

I said "That's interesting. You know I've told you about my father turning up the night he died?" He nodded tentatively. I continued "Want to know one of the things he said?"

I think he knew it wouldn't be good, and I got this sort of reluctant nod. "He said, ''"You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is to discourage you even more!'".

I continued "You've just quoted him back to me almost word for word!"

He blurted out "You really did see your father that night!"

After the discussion had cooled down a bit, he added, "I tend to discourage people. I don't mean to, but I do".

I still have an enormous amount of respect for the pastor. I learnt a lot from him, and he was prophetic. If he said he thought something would happen, I found it did sooner or later. Right now I'm working through one of his more unusual predictions, but I don't know where its going to lead.

As for being drawn by the Father, as my father said, even though he "always was doomed", it was somehow still "right" as he could "see that from here..."

I don't understand it, and I don't think I will until I die myself and those sorts of mysteries are explained to me.
 
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Jesusfann777888

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John 6:44 NIV - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 6:65 NIV - 'He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."'

For some reason these verses only appear in John, and not the other gospels. I don't claim to understand it, and I don't like it much, but this appears to be the case.

I've often said that the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. We had a discussion and argument before he disappeared into eternity with one almighty scream.

But during the proceedings at one point he blurted out "... I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

I was an atheist back then (1979) but even I had a sense of ethical unfairness. I argued back "That can't be right!"

He replied, "Oh, it's right all right. You can see that from here!" ("here" being his spiritual state immediately after death I'd presume). He was able to see some future events (or more accurately he was being shown - I'll give an example later).

But later in the same exchange he cried out "I was WILLING..." (to do the cruel stupid things that condemned him in the first place, and to keep doing them right to the end of his earthly life). I know that at least one (Catholic) uncle tried to warn him, but he just took no notice.

But I don't understand it, and it's a mystery, one that I don't like much.

The Bible also says God searches the heart, and I think that if He considers someone is wondering about Him and / or Christ, He'll do something to try to draw them. But we can still say "no".

On the future events, I said I was an atheist. He made a few predictions, some rather forbidding, but amongst the less disturbing were two items -

1. "You'll become a Christian" and

2. "You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is discourage you even more."

Those statements were word for word. I became a Christian nearly 4 years later (late 1982 - he died in January 1979).

I also met a pastor for whom I developed an enormous amount of respect. But as the time came for me to leave his church (I got married and moved a fair distance from the parish, and he had cancer - he died about four months after I got married), he said to me in his office "I owe you an apology".

I asked him why. He replied, "You needed encouragement, and all I've done is to discourage you even more!"

I said "That's interesting. You know I've quite often told you about my father turning up the night he died?" He nodded tentatively. I continued "Want to know one of the things he said?"

I think he knew it wouldn't be good, and I got this sort of reluctant nod. "He said, ''"You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is to discourage you even more!'".

I continued "And you've just quoted him back to me almost word for word!"

He blurted out "You really did see your father that night!"

After the discussion had cooled down a bit, he added, "I tend to discourage people. I don't mean to, but I do".

I still have an enormous amount of respect for the pastor. I learnt a lot from him, and he was prophetic. If he said he thought something would happen, I found it did sooner or later. Right now I'm working through one of his more unusual predictions, but I still don't know where its going to lead.

As for being drawn by the Father, as my father said, even though he "always was doomed", it was somehow still "right" as he could "see that from here..."

I don't understand it, and I don't think I will until I die myself and those sorts of mysteries are explained to me.
O think that's what I was getting at with this post. In terms of the problems that people are expieriencing in this world, that if Christian's understood more about them how much more effective that could be for people who need help.

I realize, that a lot of the expierience's people are having they never get the chance to talk to anyone about because they fear what that person might think or say and often times that has a lot to do with learning how prejudicial people are and how many people want to be Leader's without realizing it requires them to be a servant.

I feel like the devil search's for people, and so do demon's and that they run havoc in a person's life and the church isn't prepared to help people with those sort's of thing's. I have recently started expieriencing odd case's of deja vu, as if, I had already seen those part's of my life or I'm expieriencing something's plan for my life.

I don't like it, especially since I'm Expieriencing anger for Jesus, and I never thought I ever would. I think back to a time where I was happy, the first time in my life actually, when I was walking close to Jesus and now, I'm just smoking cogerettes racked with stress because of some life expieriences. this life is hard, and what happened to your father, is tradgic.

I feel as if a lot of people want to get close to Jesus, but, satan and demon's keep them away in way's human's aren't capable of understanding. The real issues in life modern Christianity never approaches, they only throw Bible Verses at symptom's and the state of people is growing worse.i don't want to get too personal with you, but, it seems like there was a lot going on there, and it's odd how we sense certain thing's isn't it? was your father a sad man?

However , Jesus is Still In Charge, maybe I just don't understand but this is not how I pictured my life.

in terms of your post, How are you doing now?
 
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Bobber

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I feel like the devil search's for people, and so do demon's and that they run havoc in a person's life and the church isn't prepared to help people with those sort's of thing's.

Like what? There's nothing new under the sun.

I feel as if a lot of people want to get close to Jesus, but, satan and demon's keep them away in way's human's aren't capable of understanding.

Sorry not accepting that. I'm not saying some haven't been deluded to think that but we're either going to let God's word define reality and be considered truth by us or were not. I'd encourage you to say yes to God's truth which exhorts us to draw near to God and HE WILL draw near to you. James 4:8,10 He didn't say he might. He said he will. And also to embrace the truth that if we resist the devil he will FLEE from us. James 4:7 Any other way of thinking qualifies as imaginations which need cast down by the word of God 2 Cor 10:5 and rejected in no uncertain terms. Men can do what God said they can do.
 
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Davy

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I read an article not so long ago about a non-chtistian having a discussion about knowing Jesus is real and that it's the end but he can't believe.

Now, this sound's paradoxical but if someone know's but can't believe, is there something that is spiritually preventing them, like they want to but their being stopped?

What a silly question.
 
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Davy

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No. keep these type's of comment's to yourself. it was so "silly" people responded.

Your argument indeed is silly... for if one 'knows', then it means they 'believe', but they still may not 'follow' Jesus.

This matter God's Word shows us at the end of Zechariah 14 that even after Christ's future return and He is established as Lord and King, some nations will still refuse to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Even in Revelation 3:9, Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make those who say they are Jews, but are not, but are the "synagogue of Satan", to come worship at the feet of His elect. That doesn't mean they will still convert to Jesus, it's only about their bowing to Christ in that future time, so whether they want to or not, they will 'believe' Jesus is God The Son!

What you're proposing instead is 'doubt' once Christ is known, which is impossible.
 
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Jesusfann777888

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Your argument indeed is silly... for if one 'knows', then it means they 'believe', but they still may not 'follow' Jesus.

This matter God's Word shows us at the end of Zechariah 14 that even after Christ's future return and He is established as Lord and King, some nations will still refuse to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Even in Revelation 3:9, Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make those who say they are Jews, but are not, but are the "synagogue of Satan", to come worship at the feet of His elect. That doesn't mean they will still convert to Jesus, it's only about their bowing to Christ in that future time, so whether they want to or not, they will 'believe' Jesus is God The Son!

What you're proposing instead is 'doubt' once Christ is known, which is impossible.
it was'nt an argument, it was a Consideration. The fact you stated the word argument already lets me Know your state of mind. /ignore.
 
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Davy

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it was'nt an argument, it was a Consideration. The fact you stated the word argument already lets me Know your state of mind. /ignore.

You should study God's Word more about the idea of condemnation to understand why your argument doesn't work.

As for the word 'argument'...

Argument
A form of expression consisting of a coherent set of reasons presenting or supporting a point of view; a series of reasons given for or against a matter under discussion that is intended to convince or persuade the listener.
 
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Jesusfann777888

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You should study God's Word more about the idea of condemnation to understand why your argument doesn't work.

As for the word 'argument'...

Argument
A form of expression consisting of a coherent set of reasons presenting or supporting a point of view; a series of reasons given for or against a matter under discussion that is intended to convince or persuade the listener.

let's clear up some logic because initially you said silly "question" when did it become an argument to you when you stated question?
 
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