How many times can one be regenerated?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Please don't be silly, dear woman. Jesus said to them, "you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He". That is a rebuke.

Well, maybe this explains your confusion. You're in the wrong context.

Try John 8:21,24.

I don't see a scripture quote.

You mean you can't find John 8:21,24??

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

So you see, I was correct.

I don't see you explaining the context you think I misunderstood.
Just because you think it, does not make it so.

What context?

And I don't enjoy playing verse pong....
address my verse before you throw me a different one.
That's how good conversation is done.

What verse?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You don't know??? The answer should be obvious.

2 Thess 3:14 - Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

Please exegete 1 Corinthians 5:10-11 and then I'll be happy to address the above.

You had asked the reason for shunning an immoral believer. The red words give the reason.

I did address 1 For 5:10-11, but I'll repeat myself for your benefit.

10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

In v.10, "the people of this world" refers to unbelievers. And Paul gives the reason he doesn't mean them; if he did, he would be telling believers to leave this world.

In v.11 he is telling believers to shun immoral believers.

The reason I know Paul was distinguishing between unbelievers and believers as to who to shun is found in the next 2 verses:

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Back in Paul's day, unbelievers didn't attend churches, like they do today.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Funny.
I seem to understand everything anyone else post.

Perhaps I understand it but I find it rather repulsive for anyone to say that they could even commit murder and still be saved BECAUSE they are saved.

This would indicate that you don't really believe that Jesus Christ PAID the sin debt for everyone. That means all of it.

But He did.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't care what you think about what I write. It's the truth and I back it up with Scripture.


No, you don't.


No, I didn't. 1:9 is about fellowship through confession of sin, and 3:9 is about the fact that the believer (new creature) cannot sin while functioning in that nature.


See? "functioning from their new nature".


I never even suggested such nonsense.

See? You really don't understand what I post.

I also cited Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 about grieving and quenching the Spirit. Do you honestly believe that the believer is IN fellowship while grieving/quenching the Spirit??


Sorry. I don't understand the question. Please clarify the "what we lost without faith".

This is what I asked:

2. Could you please post some verses about how what we lost without faith is fellowship and not our salvation.
Thanks.

IOW,,,I'd like to see from scripture that what we lose is FELLOWSHIP and not SALVATION.

Please post some verses that support your idea that what we lose is fellowship...

 

[GodsGrace101]

This would indicate that you don't really believe that Jesus Christ PAID the sin debt for everyone. That means all of it.

But He did.

I don't appreciate that you do not post my entire question/answer/statement.

In this way you make my statement sound like what YOU want it to say and not what I intend.

I think it's time to stop speaking to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what I asked:

2. Could you please post some verses about how what we lost without faith is fellowship and not our salvation.
Thanks.

IOW,,,I'd like to see from scripture that what we lose is FELLOWSHIP and not SALVATION.

Please post some verses that support your idea that what we lose is fellowship...

OK, now that's a clarification. Thanks.

Easy. First, there are NO verses that even say that salvation can be lost. So there is no reason to believe that it can.

Second, Jesus taught that "whoever believes" possesses (now, or right now, meaning WHEN they believe) eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Third, Jesus also taught that the recipients of etenal life (see above for who gets the gift of eternal life) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, this proves that salvation cannot be lost for believers.

Now, as to fellowship, 1 John 1 is all about fellowship. And the WAY to be forgiven and cleansed is confession of sin.

So, consider a marriage relationship. Do you think that there is fellowship between spouses ALL the time? If you do, you do not have any idea about what marriage is about.

What do you think happens when one spouse OFFENDS the other? Fellowship is LOST, obviously.

So, how does the offending spouse restore fellowship with the other spouse? By confession of their sins (offenses). No other way.

I'm happy to clarify anything that isn't clear to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't appreciate that you do not post my entire question/answer/statement.

In this way you make my statement sound like what YOU want it to say and not what I intend.

I think it's time to stop speaking to you.

So what did I leave out? Could you specify?

 

[corinth77777]

To be clear, you are defining what you want to define. To walk by the Spirit is to be filled with the Spirit. That means to be influenced by. We are to obey Jesus Christ, our Savior.

Maybe you don't appreciate the difference.

Sometimes people disagree..there is far too much evidence....not to know to live by the spirit is to obey the spirit, to eat from the word, to work out salvation, to live by every word of God....etc



Jesus says the words I speak to you are Spirit and life...

We are to obey the spirit....
But if you think otherwise..then we can agree to disagree....Not too much can be discussed if we can't agree on the basic.

 

[JLB777]

You need to stop lying. I was very clear. There won't be ANY disobedient believers around by the time the mark of the beast occurs.

But it seems you were too distracted by your own false doctrine to notice.

I am WELL aware of the fact that those who take the mark will end up in hell. So your charge is as false as can be.

I was the one debating you.

You can lie and deceive others who weren’t there, but you and I both know what you said.


So I guess you don’t believe there will be anyone saved during the tribulation.

More false doctrine.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Thank you for your opinion, but it's wrong, nonetheless.

More opinion and denial.


That’s all your doctrine is.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Thank you for your opinion, but it's wrong, nonetheless.

He was teaching that the only way to avoid being called a hypocrite is to have deeds that show your faith.


What you fail to grasp is "save from WHAT"? iow, Can one's faith (being a Christian) save him from being a hypocrite? The answer is NO. Unless he has deeds that demonstrate his faith.


v.15,16 provide an excellent example of hypocrisy. Lip service to the needy by a Christian is hypocrisy.

Kinda like claiming to believe in Christ BUT NOT believing what He said about recipients of eternal life. Those who believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish are hypocrites.


Your quote is in error. The end quote mark in v.18 doesn't occur after "I have works", as you have shown. I know that nearly every translation does the same thing, so I won't hold it against you.

However, v.18 makes NO sense where the quote marks were put. It only makes sense if the end quote mark is at the end of the verse.

The "someone" claims to have works, right? Then that same "someone" says "I will show you my faith by my works". So he has BOTH faith and works, and he is challenging the person to whom he is addressing to show his faith without works.

iow, without works, the one with faith can't demonstrate his faith.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:14-21


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Abraham was justified by works.


Believing without obeying is dead.

It’s demonic believing.

Even the demons believe—and tremble!


JLB

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sometimes people disagree..there is far too much evidence....not to know to live by the spirit is to obey the spirit, to eat from the word, to work out salvation, to live by every word of God....etc



Jesus says the words I speak to you are Spirit and life...

We are to obey the spirit....
But if you think otherwise..then we can agree to disagree....Not too much can be discussed if we can't agree on the basic.

Disagreeing on some nuance of Christianity is OK....
But not agreeing by some on such a fundamental concept, which is that God has ALWAYS demanded obedience and His grace does not abolish this demand...
puts that believer in danger IMHO.

And I think of the harm it may do to some reading along....
To believe in God
Is to obey God.

 

[JLB777]

Yes, his YOKE is easy. But easy believism says that men may believe and not remained yoked to Christ. If his yoke is easy, then they are worse then infidels for not remaining yoked to him. Do you think you are speaking to an unexperienced man?


Ok, you have no answer.

Amen!



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Sometimes people disagree..there is far too much evidence....not to know to live by the spirit is to obey the spirit, to eat from the word, to work out salvation, to live by every word of God....etc



Jesus says the words I speak to you are Spirit and life...

We are to obey the spirit....
But if you think otherwise..then we can agree to disagree....Not too much can be discussed if we can't agree on the basic.

Amen sir!




JLB

 

[GodsGrace101]

So what did I leave out? Could you specify?

Sure.

In post no. 221 I wrote:

Funny.
I seem to understand everything anyone else post.

Perhaps I understand it but I find it rather repulsive for anyone to say that they could even commit murder and still be saved BECAUSE they are saved.
(not because they have felt contrition over it).


In post no. 228, you copied this from my post:

GodsGrace101 said: ↑
Funny.
I seem to understand everything anyone else post.

Perhaps I understand it but I find it rather repulsive for anyone to say that they could even commit murder and still be saved BECAUSE they are saved.

You left out a very important sentence which changes the meaning of what I stated.

This is what you left out:


(not because they have felt contrition over it).

Then you said I must not believe that Jesus died for sins,,,which is plainly understood that He did by what you left out.

Please post my entire sentences, or do not respond to them.

My point being that we can be forgiven EVEN OF MURDER if we are contrite over this sin.

But, as the Apostle John said in his 1st letter, chapter 1 verse 9....if we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You see, if we are required to ask forgiveness for our sins,,,,it must surely mean that God does not accept sin. God is faithful to forgive them.....
but He must remain faithful to HIMSELF...

2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful: For He cannot deny Himself.

What must God remain faithful to?

His justice. God will not treat the faithless,,,those that deny their very faith and its principles... as though they were faithful. Those that are faithful to God and His requirements will be accepted...those that are not will be treated differently.

Those that are faithless and not obedient to God will incur His wrath:

Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You need to stop lying. I was very clear. There won't be ANY disobedient believers around by the time the mark of the beast occurs.

But it seems you were too distracted by your own false doctrine to notice.

I am WELL aware of the fact that those who take the mark will end up in hell. So your charge is as false as can be.

I was the one debating you.

Of course it was you. Why would you think otherwise?

You can lie and deceive others who weren’t there, but you and I both know what you said.

I haven't lied. That act belongs to you. But since you claim that I said something, please proceed and prove it by citing the post #.

So I guess you don’t believe there will be anyone saved during the tribulation.

Wow. You really have a handle on totally MISUNDERSTANDING the English language.

I never said that. This is what I DID say. By the time the mark of the beast will be introduced, there WON'T be any rebellious or disobedient Christians around.

Why not? Because the wrath of God will have eliminated (through physical death) them along with all the unbelievers that will die during the various judgments.

More false doctrine.

From you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:14-21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Abraham was justified by works.

The whole issue of justification in James 2 is regarding the perspective of PEOPLE, not God. If it were about God's perspective, then James and Paul WOULD HAVE been in conflict.

Human and Divine perspective

Romans 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

This is about the perspective of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

This is about the perspective of both God and humans.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.

This is about the perspective of others.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

This is about perspective of the Lord and of man.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

This is about perspective of outsiders.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

This is directly related to James 2:15-18.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

This is about perspective of outsiders. To “win the respect of outsiders” is to be justified in the eyes of outsiders.

And...2:15,16 PROVES this. From the perspective of the cold and hungry brothers/sisters who were given only lip service by another believer, the faith of that believer would seem dead to them.

It really doesn't require a whole lot of discernment to understand this.

God is omniscient, if you didn't know that. So He doesn't need to see or observe anyone's faith by deeds in order to KNOW they have faith.

However, human beings DO need to see or observe deeds in order to see their faith.

That's exactly what 2:18 is teaching.

Believing without obeying is dead.

Yes. Like a branch that isn't producing fruit. John 15

It’s demonic believing.

No, it's not. Not even close. There is no such thing as "demonic believing".

Even the demons believe—and tremble!

I keep asking but you keep ignoring; what is it that the "demons believe" in 2:19?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Disagreeing on some nuance of Christianity is OK....
But not agreeing by some on such a fundamental concept, which is that God has ALWAYS demanded obedience and His grace does not abolish this demand...
puts that believer in danger IMHO.

The OBVIOUS danger is being in conflict with the words of the Lord Jesus, which seems to not bother Arminians at all.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Arminians claim that recipients of etenral life CAN perish.

If you don't see a huge conflict here, you have zero discernment.

 

[GodsGrace101]

OK, now that's a clarification. Thanks.

Easy. First, there are NO verses that even say that salvation can be lost. So there is no reason to believe that it can.

Is there a verse that says we can sin all we want to and still be saved?

Second, Jesus taught that "whoever believes" possesses (now, or right now, meaning WHEN they believe) eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Third, Jesus also taught that the recipients of etenal life (see above for who gets the gift of eternal life) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

True. Agreed.
Those that believe will have eternal life.

The problem here is that you believe that fellowship is lost. This is no big deal and Paul and the other writers would not have written so much about how we should live a holy life. There must surely be a reason for this and it's not because we will be punished HERE,,,it's because we will be punished AFTER.

You posted John 5:24....just go a few verse down where Jesus states:

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. ( condemnation).

Does condemnation by God sound like loss of fellowship to you?
Those that did EVIL DEEDS will be condemned to a resurrection of judgement/condemnation.

This is not speaking to fellowship,,,this is speaking to our very eternal life....eternal life will be lost if we commit evil deeds.

Those same deeds that you claim can be committed and we can still be saved.

The N.T., Jesus and all the writers DO NOT agree with you.

I'd go over each verse you posted,,,but you never reply to mine and this takes a lot of time...so I will not do this unless you do.

So, this proves that salvation cannot be lost for believers.

What does? I can't keep going back to my post to understand you. Please include my answer with your statement...thanks.

Now, as to fellowship, 1 John 1 is all about fellowship. And the WAY to be forgiven and cleansed is confession of sin.

Yes..again I agree.

But if you scroll down to 1 John 1:5-7 you'll find some conditions in order to stay in fellowship...

1. God is light and in Him there is no darkness.
2. If we say that we walk in fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness..WE LIE AND DO NOT PRACTICE THE TRUTH.

In John 8:12 Jesus tells us that HE is the light of the world and he who follows HIM SHALL NOT WALK IN THE DARKNESS, but shall have the light of life.

If we do NOT follow Jesus AND WALK IN THE DARKNESS (practice sin)
we will NOT have the LIGHT OF LIFE.

3. IF we HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH THE SON, the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin....1 John 1:7

IF WE DO NOT HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH THE SON...we will NOT BE cleansed from all unrighteousness...

As you can see fellowship with God is very important.

No fellowship...
No cleansing of sin...
No salvation.

So, consider a marriage relationship. Do you think that there is fellowship between spouses ALL the time? If you do, you do not have any idea about what marriage is about.

What do you think happens when one spouse OFFENDS the other? Fellowship is LOST, obviously.

So, how does the offending spouse restore fellowship with the other spouse? By confession of their sins (offenses). No other way.

I'm happy to clarify anything that isn't clear to you.

This is what I think about marriage and fellowship...
If the offending spouse does this continually ..... at times DIVORCE is sought.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sure.

In post no. 221 I wrote:

Funny.
I seem to understand everything anyone else post.

Perhaps I understand it but I find it rather repulsive for anyone to say that they could even commit murder and still be saved BECAUSE they are saved.
(not because they have felt contrition over it).


In post no. 228, you copied this from my post:

GodsGrace101 said: ↑
Funny.
I seem to understand everything anyone else post.

Perhaps I understand it but I find it rather repulsive for anyone to say that they could even commit murder and still be saved BECAUSE they are saved.

You left out a very important sentence which changes the meaning of what I stated.

This is what you left out:

(not because they have felt contrition over it).

Well, that's just your own opinion about the parenthesis. In fact, the parenthesis is IRRELEVANT, since there are NO verses that include "contrition" in the requirement for receiving eternal life. If you think there is, please share.

Then you said I must not believe that Jesus died for sins,,,which is plainly understood that He did by what you left out.

I don't see ANY relevance between your parenthesis and Christ's death for sins.

It is because of your claim that "sinners won't enter heaven" that I said what I said.

If Christ died for ALL sins, which He did, then sin CANNOT be an issue in getting saved.

Because Christ removed the sin barrier between God and man. That's why Paul wrote 2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Please post my entire sentences, or do not respond to them.

I'll post what I think is relevant.

My point being that we can be forgiven EVEN OF MURDER if we are contrite over this sin.

Again, please provide any verse that links being "contrite" to salvation.

But, as the Apostle John said in his 1st letter, chapter 1 verse 9....if we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Why would anyone think this is about salvation. Didn't you read the previous 8 verses? And to whom was John writing his epistle to? According to biblical scholars, it was "to all Christians".

You see, if we are required to ask forgiveness for our sins,,,,it must surely mean that God does not accept sin.

Of course He doesn't accept sin. That would be really bizarre. But the issue in ch 1 is fellowship with God; not establishing a relationship with him.

But, unfortunately, Arminians do not understand (discern) the difference between relationship and fellowship. Until one gains discernment, they cannot understand much of Scripture.

God is faithful to forgive them.....
but He must remain faithful to HIMSELF...

He always does. And He does more than forgive. He cleanses His children (saved people) which restores fellowship.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful: For He cannot deny Himself.

Do you understand any of this? All believers have the Holy Spirit (God Himself) in them. So, because God cannot deny Himself, just the same He cannot deny His children, who have the Spirit in them. Just another verse on eternal security.

What must God remain faithful to?

His word. All that He says, and promises.

His justice. God will not treat the faithless,,,those that deny their very faith and its principles... as though they were faithful.

Sure. And justice. btw, I never said nor suggested nor believe that God treats His children as though they were faithful if they weren't. He disciplines them, which is painful, including physical death. We've been over this many times.

[QUTOE] Those that are faithful to God and His requirements will be accepted...those that are not will be treated differently.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Accepted back in fellowship. But you seem to think this is about getting saved, or getting saved all over again.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Those that are faithless and not obedient to God will incur His wrath:

Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Absolutely!! That's been my point about disobedient believers. They will be punished, including loss of eternal reward.

btw, the underlined words indicate loss of reward. There are 2 other parallel passages on this subject.

In 1 Cor 6 we find the same phrase "not inherit the kingdom", but in Eph 5:5 we find "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

To 'have no inheritance IN the kingdom' doesn't say or mean "won't ENTER the kingdom" but "won't have an inheritance IN the kingdom".

I highlight the word "IN" because it's important. It clearly doesn't say anything about not getting into the kingdom.

And since Eph 5:5 is parallel to Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6, other than the wording about the kingdom, they all mean the same thing.

To "inherit the kingdom" is parallel to 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

So, to "reign with Him" means to inherit the kingdom. But being denied the privilege of reigning with Him is the same as "having NO inheritance IN the kingdom, or "not inheriting the kingdom".

The same principle is found in Rom 8:17b - co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

I hope you can see that "sharing in His glory" is the same as "reigning with Him" or "inheriting the kingdom".