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Loudmouth

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You are assuming they are related . . .

Completely false. I am using the OBSERVED mixture of human and basal ape features. The theory of evolution predicts that such species must have existed, and these observations are confirmation of the theory.

Apes and man do have similarities, does that mean they evolved from the same ancestor?

When all of these similarities fall into a nested hierarchy, yes it does mean that they evolved. Creationists always ignore the observation of the nested hierarchy. The prediction made by the theory of evolution is that you will find specific mixtures of features in fossils but not others. For example, the theory predicts that you will see mixtures of human and ape features but no fossils with a mixture of mammal and bird features.

You have to assume that they are transitioning from one form to another.

Completely false. We are only using the observation of the features in the fossils. That's it. That is what is used to test the theory.

Remember, according to evolution, this process supposedly took millions of years. Who saw it happen?

Forensic evidence is used to convict criminals all of the time, even in instances where no one observed the crime. The same is true of evolution. We use evidence in the present to test the theory of what happened in the past.
 
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Loudmouth

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Didn't I say, "...science has to do with observable, testable models of the natural world"? This is a simplified, abbreviated definition.

Didn't I say that it is wrong? Models are not observations. Models and observations are two different things.
 
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Jfrsmth

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Didn't I say that it is wrong? Models are not observations. Models and observations are two different things.

As I clarified, I simplified and abbreviated my definitions. I know models are not observations, they are working ideas (again, laymen's terms). Observations are of course what are observed. These observations either support or refute a model. Am I really that far off or are we splitting hairs here?
 
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Jfrsmth

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Loudmouth, in all fairness, on the surface you may have a valid argument, but honestly, I am not a geologist, nor am I a scientist, so, I cannot readily accept or refute your arguments unless I know more. However, what I do know, is that some of these supposed missing links are nothing more that human or primate forms; and that, based on a few bone fragments. Another question I would ask at this point, is why, if there has been millions of years worth of evolution, are there so few hominid fossils found?
 
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Jfrsmth

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As already stated, these fossils have a mixture of modern human and ancestral ape features which is the observation. Such observations are called transitional fossils which are evidence for evolution.

I replied in another post.
 
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Loudmouth

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It is very important to get it right, and the above description is correct.

All too often I have heard that we have to observe apes evolving into humans in order for the theory of evolution to be scientific. That is obviously wrong. The theory is that humans evolved from apes. You don't observe the theory. You use observations made in genetics and the fossil record to test the theory. Repeatability also refers to the observations, not the theory.
 
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Loudmouth

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They are not modern humans, and any transitional fossils will necessarily be primates since both apes and humans are primates. It is very frustrating to hear creationists time and again claim that there are no transitional fossils, but then when presented with fossils they are suddenly incapable of even defining what a transitional fossil is. What they seem to be saying is that they will refuse to accept any fossil as being transitional, no matter what it looks like. Am I wrong?

Also, these fossils are not just a few bone fragments. The skulls in that photo are nearly complete. We also have nearly complete skeletons for some specimens, such as Turkana Boy:





Another question I would ask at this point, is why, if there has been millions of years worth of evolution, are there so few hominid fossils found?

Obviously, fossilization is rare, and finding those rare fossils takes some luck.
 
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Jfrsmth

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Fossilization is not a rare occurrence. There are millions of fossils (which lends itself to rapid burial, as in a global flood). But, the relative rarity of so-called transitional fossils does not seem to match what would be expected if there has been millions of years of transition.

It is also frustrating to hear some of the arguments made by evolutionists regarding transitional fossils, at least for me, because they are assuming that one creature is turning into another (it is kind of funny, no insult intended, but I'm always reminded of some werewolf movie or something like that where the special effects show the guy turning from man to werewolf; and what is amusing to me, is that brilliant scientific minds would rather believe that kind of fantasy than believe in supernatural influence).

As for Turkana Boy: evolutionists seem to be proud of this apparent (missing) link as well, however, as I was saying previously, there are a lot of variations between humans and "[t]here is an enormous degree of cranial variation in modern humans, and this variation can develop quite rapidly" and "In the creation model, Turkana Boy is a fully human descendant of Adam and Eve whose distinct skeletal features lie within normal human variation." For evolutionary-thinking individuals, he is seen as a link between our past to modern-day; for creation-minded individuals (specifically YECs), this is nothing more than a human. Again, as I always say, it is from our worldview that we get our interpretations of the same, exact evidence.

Loudmouth, thanks for the civility for these past posts, it's refreshing, but I'm going to excuse myself now. I'm tired and have more important matters to give my time and energy to, so I'll be taking my leave of this forum. I've decided that I will not allow this forum to consume my time or energy any further as it has been. I'm relatively new here, and got sucked into the rhetoric and circuitous exchanges of people who may or may not be knowledgeable of the facts but who are nevertheless passionate about what they believe and as such have spoken quite harshly at times; and have at times myself spoken in discourteous tones. Needless to say, it is a never-ending exercise that is quite draining and apparently futile; for every argument there is a counter-argument, and another, and another. There never seems to be any agreement or conclusions drawn.

I do however have one simple observation from my experience here: That some people believe one thing based on rocks basically, others believe another thing based on what God says. For those who say we came from rocks, I'll leave this verse: Jeremiah 2:27a "Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth". For those who believe God created us as it is written in Genesis 1-2, continue to trust God to work these things out, in the fullness of time; and never lose sight of Jesus Christ who has redeemed us: Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us."

Jfrsmth, signing off.
 
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Loudmouth

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Fossilization is not a rare occurrence.

Then why do we have so few examples of Australopithecus afarensis?

There are millions of fossils (which lends itself to rapid burial, as in a global flood).

Then show me 1 million A. afarensis fossils.

If you can't back this rather simple request, then the rest of your argument falls apart.

As another example, we just found Homo naledi just a few years ago. We are still finding new transitional hominid species. Why in the world would you ever think that our fossil collections are anywhere near complete?

It is also frustrating to hear some of the arguments made by evolutionists regarding transitional fossils, at least for me, because they are assuming that one creature is turning into another

NO WE AREN'T!!!!!

I have explained this already. Were you not listening??????

"I am using the OBSERVED mixture of human and basal ape features. The theory of evolution predicts that such species must have existed, and these observations are confirmation of the theory."--Loudmouth, post 101

How can I be any clearer??????!!!!????

No assumption of relatedness is being used. It is SOLELY THE PHYSICAL FEATURES OF THE FOSSIL THAT ARE BEING USED!!!! That's it. The theory predicts which mixtures of features we should see, and which we should not. When fossils match the predicted pattern of shared and derived features, that is the evidence for the theory. That simple.

As for Turkana Boy: evolutionists seem to be proud of this apparent (missing) link as well, however, as I was saying previously, there are a lot of variations between humans

No modern human variation falls into the realm of H. erectus. None.

You need to stop going to creationist websites that lie to you.

Here is yet another example. Look for yourself. Is the pelvis 2nd from the left more like the pelvis 1st on the left, or more like the pelvis on the far right?

 
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Loudmouth

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All you have shown is fossils that resembel each other. You have speculated and assummed one evolved into another.

I have done no such thing. I OBSERVE that the fossils have a mixture of modern human and ancestral ape features which makes them transitional by definition.
 
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Loudmouth

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Sure...a definition based upon evolutionary bias.

The theory of evolution proposes that modern humans evolved from ancestral apes. Therefore, the theory predicts that we should find fossils with a mixture of human and ape features.

Can you please tell me how that prediction is wrong?
 
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-57

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The theory of evolution proposes that modern humans evolved from ancestral apes. Therefore, the theory predicts that we should find fossils with a mixture of human and ape features.

Can you please tell me how that prediction is wrong?

So, you're saying just because they have arms and legs similiar to our arms and legs...we evolved from them? You're basing your assumption on homology?
 
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Loudmouth

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So, you're saying just because they have arms and legs similiar to our arms and legs...we evolved from them? You're basing your assumption on homology?

It isn't an assumption. It is a test.

The theory of evolution predicts which mixtures of features we should see in the fossil record and which we should not see. The TEST (not assumption) is to compare the fossil record to those predictions. When the fossil record matches what the theory of evolution predicts, then we CONCLUDE that humans evolved from ape ancestors. That's how the scientific method works.

Also, are you saying that a transitional fossil should not share any features with humans or apes?
 
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-57

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It's ard to say....considering transitionl fossils don't exist. You see, mutations don't add up.
 
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