LDS How Many Apostles?

[drstevej]

What do you think the difference is between communication and revelation?

In Mormonism it is a warm chest.

 

[mmksparbud]

In Mormonism it is a warm chest.

Nope--it is stones in a hat.

 

[drstevej]

Don't forget the handshake test (even though the Mormons have):

D&C 129

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.

9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I believe the Lord Jesus changed the priesthood from Aaronic to Melchizedec, which now allowed other tribes other than Levi to hold and administer the priesthood. So there were other tribes than Levi that were now represented in the new hirarchy of the priesthood in the church of Jesus Christ.

Ah ok. Well I don't believe any of that, so I guess we'll just differ.

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus was divinely instated as the High Priest after the order of Melchizedec. No other priest was ever installed---nor is one needed.

So if I can prove that there was at least 2 High Priests in the order of Melchizedek, then that would kill your Jesus only doctrine. So here it is:
Hebrews 5:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:1 King James Version (KJV)
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Hebrews 7:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

So Jesus was a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec
And Melchisedec was also a priest of the most High God (after the order of himself Melchisedec)
And another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec... (who was the first priest after the order of Melchisedec? Melchisedec himself.

So Melchisedec was a priest of the most High God
Jesus was another priest after the order of Melchisedec. So there were at least 2. Your theory has problems.

 

[Peter1000]

Ah ok. Well I don't believe any of that, so I guess we'll just differ.

Read Hebrews. It tells us why Jesus was made a priest of the Melchisedec priesthood, and not the Aaronic priesthood.
Hebrews 7:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

When Jesus changed the priesthood and replaced the old Aaronic priesthood with the new Melchisedec priesthood it required a change in the Law. A change from the Law of Moses, to the Law of Christ.

Nobody can be saved under the Law of Moses and the Aaronic priesthood. It takes the Law of Christ and the Melchisedec priesthood to save. So Jesus changed the law and the priesthood.

 

[mmksparbud]

So if I can prove that there was at least 2 High Priests in the order of Melchizedek, then that would kill your Jesus only doctrine. So here it is:
Hebrews 5:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:1 King James Version (KJV)
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Hebrews 7:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

So Jesus was a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec
And Melchisedec was also a priest of the most High God (after the order of himself Melchisedec)
And another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec... (who was the first priest after the order of Melchisedec? Melchisedec himself.

So Melchisedec was a priest of the most High God
Jesus was another priest after the order of Melchisedec. So there were at least 2. Your theory has problems.

Melchizedec was the Priest--then Jesus---No other. Obviously there was the original!!!

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

 

[Peter1000]

Melchizedec was the Priest--then Jesus---No other. Obviously there was the original!!!

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

So then there are at least 2 priests of the Most High God after the order of Melchisedec. So I hope you do not say again, Jesus was the only priest of God after the order of Melchisedec, and there will be no others. Thank you.

That there will be no others is not biblical, because there were others, many others and since the time of Christ there could have been millions of priests. See 1 Peter 2:9.
1 Peter 2:9 (NLT)
But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

So Peter thinks there are more priests that are royal priests unto the Most High God than just Jesus or Melchisedec. Many more, because every man now can be a royal priest unto God, not just the sons of Aaron of the OT.

I know you think that Luther brought us freedom from priests and that we can now go directly to God, and that is protestant claim. Luther was only right in this respect: he brought us freedom from corrupted, and evil men that were parading as priests of God, and because the keys of the KOG were not on the earth, the only alternative was to go directly to God. But that is not how it was set up in the first century church and the bible. In the bible, Jesus gave to Peter first and then the rest of the Apostles, the keys of the KOG and with the keys came the binding and loosing powers of God. IOW, unless a man holds these keys, and this power, heaven is not going to listen to you.
(see Matthew 16:19)Matthew 16:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Others words for binding on earth, and loosing on earth: As an apostle, bishop, elder, priest, seventy, deacon, pastor, evangelist, all having the keys of the KOG, can now administer the growth of the KOG on earth, and heaven will approve of your work, and bind and loose whatever you do in heaven. Otherwise, a man without the keys will work and heaven will not recognize his work.

That is how it was set up in the bible. People still had the right to go directly to the Lord for directions and spiritual growth, but if they wanted to be baptized and become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ in the first century, and have that baptism recognized in heaven, then they needed to find a man who held the keys of the KOG. There were many imposters that sprang up, even while the apostles were still alive.

By the time Luther came he recognized that the priesthood was corrupted and he knew he could not do anything about that, therefore he preached "go directly to the Lord" and there was no need of a priest to be between you and God. He was wrong, but that has been taken care of by God. The reformation was an important step that needed to take place before the restoration could take place with JS. So I look on Luther with great respect, even though he ultimately did not have all of the truth that came later.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Read Hebrews.

I know, right? Because I've never read Hebrews before. Should I be as condescending to you or just let this one go?

It tells us why Jesus was made a priest of the Melchisedec priesthood, and not the Aaronic priesthood.

I think Hebrews answers the question of how Jesus can be high priest yet not be of Zadok, Aaron, or even Levi. He is high priest in the orderoof Melchizedek by virtue of the fact that he is King of Israel, just as David was a high priest in the order of Melchizedek because he was King of Israel and conquered Jerusalem.

 

[Peter1000]

I know, right? Because I've never read Hebrews before. Should I be as condescending to you or just let this one go?



I think Hebrews answers the question of how Jesus can be high priest yet not be of Zadok, Aaron, or even Levi. He is high priest in the orderoof Melchizedek by virtue of the fact that he is King of Israel, just as David was a high priest in the order of Melchizedek because he was King of Israel and conquered Jerusalem.

Sorry, I did not mean to be condescending when I said to read Hebrews. It is just that Hebrews explains the priesthood more than any other book in the bible. It also introduces the Melchisedec priesthood for the first time in the bible, which is very important to the covenant of the NT. Where all worthy male members of the Church of Jesus Christ of the first century were allowed to enter into the priesthood and administer the keys of the KOG whether you were of the tribe of Levi or Judah or any other tribe of Israel or even if you were a gentile. A complete break the Aaronic and Levitical tribal priesthood, of the Law of Moses.

And finally, it does explain why Jesus can be the High Priest of the people, even though he did not come from Aaron, or Zadok, or even a Levite. He was of the order of Melchisedec, which was a higher priesthood than the Aaronic, that existed before Moses.

 

[mmksparbud]

So then there are at least 2 priests of the Most High God after the order of Melchisedec. So I hope you do not say again, Jesus was the only priest of God after the order of Melchisedec, and there will be no others. Thank you.

No---there was one Priest after Melchizedec---Jesus. Where do you get 2?- Melchizedec and Jesus--one priest after Melchizedec, not 2.

1 Peter 2:9 (NLT)
But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

So Peter thinks there are more priests that are royal priests unto the Most High God than just Jesus or Melchisedec. Many more, because every man now can be a royal priest unto God, not just the sons of Aaron of the OT.

I know you think that Luther brought us freedom from priests and that we can now go directly to God, and that is protestant claim. Luther was only right in this respect: he brought us freedom from corrupted, and evil men that were parading as priests of God, and because the keys of the KOG were not on the earth, the only alternative was to go directly to God. But that is not how it was set up in the first century church and the bible. In the bible, Jesus gave to Peter first and then the rest of the Apostles, the keys of the KOG and with the keys came the binding and loosing powers of God. IOW, unless a man holds these keys, and this power, heaven is not going to listen to you.

Not a single one of those verses has anything to do with Melchizedec priesthood. Everyone of us are priests--not a select few--every single one of us--A whole nation of priests, a chosen royal people--for we are all the children of the Most High God and His adopted heirs. Melchizedec was differtent-0an Eternal High Priest. None of us are High Priests, Jesus alone.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

I know you think that Luther brought us freedom from priests and that we can now go directly to God, and that is protestant claim. Luther was only right in this respect: he brought us freedom from corrupted, and evil men that were parading as priests of God, and because the keys of the KOG were not on the earth, the only alternative was to go directly to God. But that is not how it was set up in the first century church and the bible. In the bible, Jesus gave to Peter first and then the rest of the Apostles, the keys of the KOG and with the keys came the binding and loosing powers of God. IOW, unless a man holds these keys, and this power, heaven is not going to listen to you.

Luther did not bring us freedom from priests, Jesus did that at the cross. the Catholics had merely kept that fact from the people and hid the word of God from everyone. He brought it back from hiding. It was not a new teaching, it had always been there. Luther did not make it up, Luther showed it from the bible was all.

(see Matthew 16:19)Matthew 16:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Others words for binding on earth, and loosing on earth: As an apostle, bishop, elder, priest, seventy, deacon, pastor, evangelist, all having the keys of the KOG, can now administer the growth of the KOG on earth, and heaven will approve of your work, and bind and loose whatever you do in heaven. Otherwise, a man without the keys will work and heaven will not recognize his work.

That is how it was set up in the bible. People still had the right to go directly to the Lord for directions and spiritual growth, but if they wanted to be baptized and become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ in the first century, and have that baptism recognized in heaven, then they needed to find a man who held the keys of the KOG. There were many imposters that sprang up, even while the apostles were still alive.

By the time Luther came he recognized that the priesthood was corrupted and he knew he could not do anything about that, therefore he preached "go directly to the Lord" and there was no need of a priest to be between you and God. He was wrong, but that has been taken care of by God. The reformation was an important step that needed to take place before the restoration could take place with JS. So I look on Luther with great respect, even though he ultimately did not have all of the truth that came later.

Jesus spoke directly to Peter, the one that would deny him 3 times that Jesus once would call Satan.
Strictly to him, there is not one mention of any key given to anyone else. He was to be the overseer of the work that was to go forward after His resurrection. This was said as a reference also to Hilkiah in the OT where the key to the house of David is mentioned--

Isa_22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

It was a designation of honor for the position he would hold, that was not transferred to any other.
And Jesus Himself, has them now, He got them at the resurrection.

Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Yekcidmij]

It also introduces the Melchisedec priesthood for the first time in the bible,

I would have said it was introduced in Gen 14, Ps 110, and 2 Sam 6. I would also point to a precedent in the Hasmonean Dynasty where the king was also the high priest.

 

[Peter1000]

No---there was one Priest after Melchizedec---Jesus. Where do you get 2?- Melchizedec and Jesus--one priest after Melchizedec, not 2.

Do you seriously want me to take you serious? Melchisedec was 1 priest to the High God and Jesus was the 2nd priest to the High God. 1 + 1 = 2. Not 1 priest to the High God after Melchisedec, so that Jesus is the only 1. Think about it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you seriously want me to take you serious? Melchisedec was 1 priest to the High God and Jesus was the 2nd priest to the High God. 1 + 1 = 2. Not 1 priest to the High God after Melchisedec, so that Jesus is the only 1. Think about it.

You think about it!! After Melchizedec who is the designated High Priest now? Jesus. That is one High Priest after Melchizedec! 1+0=1!!

 

[Peter1000]

You think about it!! After Melchizedec who is the designated High Priest now? Jesus. That is one High Priest after Melchizedec! 1+0=1!!

Ok, Jesus is the one now. That is correct. But Melchisedec was one in the past. That means there were both (=2) priests unto the Most High God, not just 1. Do you think Melchisedec is no longer a priest unto the Most High God?

For that fact, do you believe that there are not millions of priests unto the Most High God today, as the scripture says, "a holy nation of royal priests".

 

[mmksparbud]

Ok, Jesus is the one now. That is correct. But Melchisedec was one in the past. That means there were both (=2) priests unto the Most High God, not just 1. Do you think Melchisedec is no longer a priest unto the Most High God?

For that fact, do you believe that there are not millions of priests unto the Most High God today, as the scripture says, "a holy nation of royal priests".

Jesus is the only High Priest----
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

eb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Read carefully:

Heb 7:26 ​

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens​

Melchizedec--the High Priest that Abraham gave his tithe to---was Jesus.

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus is the only High Priest----
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

eb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Read carefully:

Heb 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens​

Melchizedec--the High Priest that Abraham gave his tithe to---was Jesus.

Oh, I see now. You think Melchizedec was Jesus. Wow, that's a bombshell.
Please explain how you come to this conclusion?

 

[mmksparbud]

Oh, I see now. You think Melchizedec was Jesus. Wow, that's a bombshell.
Please explain how you come to this conclusion?

Read carefully:
Heb 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens

who is the only one who "became us"??