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How long is a Month, in Revelation 9?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Ligurian, Dec 5, 2021.

  1. Ligurian

    Ligurian Piedmont

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    How long is a Month, in Revelation 9?

    9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
    9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
    9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
    9:7 And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.
    9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.
    9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
    9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
    9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
    9:12 One woe is past; [and], behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


    Are the locusts the same people, or different from the 200k horsemen?

    9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
    9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
    9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
    9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen [were] two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
    9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses [were] as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
    9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
    9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails [were] like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
    9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
    9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
    (pharmakei = medication ("pharmacy"))

    If these two trumpets are not talking about the same people, then why aren't the 200k listed as one of the Three Woes of Revelation 8:13? Because the next woe doesn't happen until Revelation 11:14 after the death of the two witnesses, and the third woe is the dragon coming down to Earth in Revelation 12:12.
     
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  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    30 days.

    Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
    Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
    Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
    Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

    Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
    Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
    Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
    Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

    Some similarities and some differences. Could be the same army where they only hurt men in the 5th trump but kill in the 6th trump. Could also be two armies. One like regular army troops and the second like specialized troops/special ops etc.



    The 3rd woe is the 7th trump so that is not when the satan comes from heaven. It's when Christ comes from heaven. Satan is kicked out of heaven in Revelation 12, before he starts the war against Christians which is the Great Tribulation found in Revelation 13. Look to the 3rd trump for satan's fall from heaven.
     
  3. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    It was five months in the conventional meaning of month. It was the five-month siege of Jerusalem under Titus that starved a large part of the inhabitants inside the walls. The conditions were so bad that men sought death but could not find it. The scorpion tail is part of the religion of the soldiers laying the siege. Google "chimera". Some have a snake head for a tail, some have a scorpion tail, others have something else for a tail. It's an ancient idol worshipped in the near East. To the ancients the sting of a scorpion didn't inflict pain, but sapped the strength. The famine inside the city sapped the strength of the inhabitants.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Titus' Siege of Jerusalem - Livius.

    The siege was not 5 months long:

    "On 14 April 70, during Passover, Titus laid siege to Jerusalem."

    "On 8 September, Titus was master of what was left of the city."


    This is less than 5 months and that's at the very end of the events.


    "On the tenth of August, the Temple itself was burning."

    "During the next few days, the Romans destroyed the archives, the quarter immediately south of the Temple, and the building where the Sanhedrin convened. Then, they descended into the Old Town. Meanwhile, dams had been prepared to attack the palace; when Titus' men had taken it, the last defenders managed to hide themselves in the sewer system. John was among them, and was among the first to surrender. Simon remained in hiding for some time, but finally made a dramatic appearance on the place where the Temple had stood, dressed in a white priestly tunic and his royal, purple mantle."

    So by August 13th, the siege was over. What happened between August 13th and September 8th was continued destruction of the city but the rebels were already overcome by August 13th which makes the siege actually less than 4 months by one day. April 14th - August 13th, less than 4 months. Even using the later date of September 8th is still less than 5 months but the siege had been over for awhile.

    Another non-match:

    "The Romans decided to starve the enemies into surrender. In three days, Jerusalem was surrounded with an eight kilometer long palisade. All trees within fifteen kilometres of the city were cut down."

    That doesn't match the scriptures:

    9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

    The Romans cut down the trees but the Locust army does not. No match.


    "The death rate among the besieged increased. Soon, the Kidron valley and the Valley of Hinnom were filled with corpses. One defector told Titus that their number was estimated at 115,880. Desperate people tried to leave Jerusalem. When they had succeeded in passing their own lines and had not been killed by Roman patrols, they reached the palisade. Here they surrendered: as prisoners, they were at last entitled to some bread. Some of them ate so much, that they could not stomach it and died."


    9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.



    Many people did in fact die so another non-match.
     
  5. Ligurian

    Ligurian Piedmont

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    I believe they're 30-day months. 150 days = flood-waters... relevance?
    And since those to be saved are already sealed at the time... sure, why not a literal five months... (sigh)

    So... the warning is the scorpion-sting. Followed with death by fire and smoke and brimstone.

    I don't think Christ comes from Heaven at the 7th trumpet... that's only when the Kingdom is announced in Heaven... without all the pesky accusations of the dragon... it would truly be the Kingdom of God in Heaven. The Kingdom gets announced lots of times in the Bible, as though it's in the here and now. Just like when Jesus says the prince of this world is judged... but the carrying-out of his sentence hasn't happened yet.

    _____________
    The Three Woes, for those who haven't found them yet, are here:
    Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
    Revelation 9:1-12 One woe is past; behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
    Revelation 11:3-14 The second woe is past; behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  6. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    By Jewish reckoning any part of a month is considered a month, just like counting days. A five month siege. And that was not the end of events, it was the middle. The war continued until the fall of Masada. And after the siege Titus ordered tens of thousands to be executed in the arenas. They were killed with "the beasts of the earth".

    It says "men shall seek death and shall not find it". It doesn't say "all men shall seek death and shall not find it". There were people who lived through the entire siege.
     
  7. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Can the partial month thing be proven?

    The siege of Jerusalem was less than 5 months though. The scriptures speak of a 5 month period where men are harmed but not killed and no trees are cut down. The siege of Jerusalem does not match at all.

    Which is "after" the siege of Jerusalem which has no match to the 5th trump.


    You are missing the point:

    Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

    The locust will not kill anyone in the 5th trump but the Roman's did kill many people during the siege of Jerusalem. The less than 4 months of the siege of Jerusalem is not a match to the events of the 5th trump.

    To find the killing, you have to go to the 6th trump where where a 1/3 of men are killed but there is no mention of 4 or 5 months.
     
  8. Ligurian

    Ligurian Piedmont

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    Would that reference be to the religion of Mithraism which followed the Roman armies?
    From probably the same source comes the 7-headed red dragon of Babylon, aka chaos, aka Tiamat.

    Seems to me, the scorpion sting is a reference to the mark of the beast. Because they are told to sting only those who don't already have the seal of the Father, Revelation 9:4.
     
  9. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I would think it's a precursor to the mark since it happens in the 5th trump while the mark is in the 6th trump. The sting simply weakens them so they can be spiritual devoured which is how the scorpion prepares to devour it's prey:

    Scorpion Diet | Terminix

    Venom is delivered to their prey through the stinger. The venom causes paralysis or death, but it also liquefies the insides of the prey. Once the victim is immobilized, scorpions use their sharp, claw-like mouthparts to remove portions of food. Scorpions can only digest liquids, so they also use these mouthparts to discard any solid matter that’s left after feeding.
     
  10. Melody Suttles

    Melody Suttles SingPeace Supporter

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    Answer is 30 days.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  11. Ligurian

    Ligurian Piedmont

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    Okay.
    So... the sting is a warning of things to come.

    But the sealed are already sealed, here...

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
    Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.


    ... so, I'm not sure what you mean by spiritual weakness caused by the sting?

    The 200k at the Euphrates is also a warning... because 2/3 of mankind survive it. How do they survive it? Why is pharmakeia even being mentioned? Are there drugs you can take to reverse the effects of fire and smoke and brimstone?

    Revelation 9:20-21 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (pharmakeia, medication, pharmacy)

    So... next comes the beast and it's image.

    Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  12. jamiec

    jamiec Active Member

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    5 months sounds like a reference to the 150 days of the Flood: Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth for 150 days. Rev contains quite a few references to Genesis, & that is very likely to be one of them. It is also a reminder that the text is describing a vision, and not a this-worldly reality.
     
  13. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    The idea of sapping strength is a symbol of Mithraism. If you closely at a statue of Mithra killing the bull you'll see a scorpion stinging the bull's testicles. It's a sign of draining the bull's energy. But in the case of the Revelation it describes a chimera. Face of a man, wings of a bird, with four feet, and a scorpion tail. It's found also at Romans 1:23. All translations have this read as if it is a list of different idols but it's not. It is a single idol with a list of its characteristics.

    Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

    The ones who had the seal of God in their foreheads had been warned to leave Jerusalem. Conventional wisdom held that if an army was attacking they would be safe inside the city walls. In this case it was a death sentence to go inside. But they were spared the siege:

    Luk 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
    Luk 21:21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
     
  14. Ligurian

    Ligurian Piedmont

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    Ok then, what year is it today?
     
  15. Ligurian

    Ligurian Piedmont

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    Such as?
     
  16. Ligurian

    Ligurian Piedmont

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    Interesting thing... bulls are found in many ancient religions... wasn't your statue symbolic of the march of the Persians? They are the feet of the bear... and they conquered the head of the lion... and at least part of the leopard... and apparently had influenced the Roman armies. I always wondered where Rome got it's methodology.
     
  17. jamiec

    jamiec Active Member

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    Here are a few:

    motif of hiding from God - Rev 6.15 echoes Gen 3.8

    in Rev 12.
    Signs in heaven Gen 1.14
    Gen 3.15
    Dragon is the tannin of Jer 51.34 - same word in Gen 1.21

    There are uses of the same motifs, verbal echoes, and (as in the case of the “five months” in Rev), passages and phrases which (in their context) are very likely intended as references. When there are exact or very close verbal coincidences, a quotation in Rev of an OT book is certain - as in Rev 4.8, which is very obviously taken from Isa. 6.3.

    A good many passages in Rev are echoes of passages and phrases in the books from Exodus to Joshua. The mention of the Ark of the covenant in Rev chapter 11 is a very obvious example. The mention of the trumpets blown by the Angels is a less certain, but still highly probable, reminiscence of the trumpets blown by the Levites as they proceeded around the walls of Jericho seven times in chapter 6 of the book of Joshua.

    The trumpets are particularly interesting, because there are so many different connections and books which they recall: Exodus, Joshua, Joel, chronicles, among others. And, of course, 1 Corinthians 15.
     
  18. Ligurian

    Ligurian Piedmont

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    ... and thus, canon allowed Revelation to become part of the Bible.
     
  19. Torah Keeper

    Torah Keeper Well-Known Member

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    A month is a moon and is 29.53 days. 5 moons is about 148 days.

    I think the locusts and horsemen are different. The locusts are released after the 5th angel, the horsemen after the 6th.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Technically the horsemen aren't said to be "released". They are just there and their number is given. They aren't a perfect match to the locusts but there are many similarities.

    Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
    Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
    Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
    Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
    Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
    Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
     
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