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How long before the Holy Spirit filled you?

Discussion in 'Spiritual Gifts' started by Romans 8, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Active Member

    New Zealand
    Are you referring to the Baptism of the Hoy Spirit or the indwelling presence associated with being born again? I think we use different terms sometimes which can make it difficult to understand each-other. There is also a periodic infilling that comes after being baptised in the Spirit - like a topping up.
    Personally I believe that the Lord decides when it is the right time to be Baptised in the Spirit. Any amount of believing will not change this unless we have heard His Word on the matter.


    Carl Emerson.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  2. Pioneer3mm

    Pioneer3mm Member Supporter

    United States
    Good point.
    - About "different terms"...
    You can get into misunderstanding/confusion.
  3. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    United States
    I believe what you call the indwelling presence of being born again of the Spirit, the Bible calls it the baptism of the Spirit. IOW, the first filling. It calls the second filling, just that, a filling.

    In Acts 1 Jesus tells them that they are to wait in Jerusalem for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 was the "baptism" with the Holy Spirit. They spoke in tongues - the first filling according to Mark 16:17-18.

    4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    Then in Acts 4 the same people that received the baptism of the Holy Spirit received a second "filling" that Pentecostals mistakenly refer to as the "baptism" in which they received the power gifts of the Spirit for ministry found in 1 Corinthians 12.

    I prefer the actual Biblical words, and not denominationalized jargon. Our differences have to do with semantics due to a mistake in identification.

    Another mistake Pentecostals make scripturally is believing that a person born again of the Spirit cannot speak in tongues, but must receive the second filling first. Wrong! Mark 16 clearly says that all who believe and are water baptized have that authority to pray in tongues. Romans 8:9 agrees that you are given the Holy Spirit immediately or you don't belong to Christ. The second filling for gifts of Acts 4 would give you the other ability of tongues for giving words in church in tongues that MUST be interpreted 1 Corinthians 12. Prayer language does not have to be interpreted, but Paul does recommend that we pray for the interpretation. That could also mean that if they only have their prayer language, they should pray for the second filling in which interpretation would be available.
    Therefore, there are two types of tongues. One for personal use in prayer, the second for the profit of all in church. The difference is the direction. Prayer TO God, messages FROM God.

    Some Christians receive both the baptism and the additional filling for gifts all at once. I was. When I was first baptized with the Spirit after repentance, I was given most of the gifts of the Spirit as well as my prayer language.
  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Active Member

    New Zealand
    I don't want to enter a contest of doctrines, I will however give my take on the issue...

    I attended a non-denominational bible college in the 80's but only after I had studied the bible prayerfully for 5 years alone without reading any other Christian literature.

    Because of this, I have different insights and I am not aligned to denominational theology.

    There is a war raging on the forum with many voices muddying the waters of truth.

    I was born again at 13 when Jesus came and indwelled me - I was never the same again. I was baptised by immersion as a believer shortly after.

    I was Baptised in the Spirit in a very conservative church about 20 years later - I didn't know what was happening - it was accompanied by deep repentance and an awareness of the huge chasm between my 'righteousness' and His. I was undone and cried through the service. This was a divine encounter and had nothing to do with the sermon, and the church didn't believe in it.

    A day later He spoke to me and confirmed what had happened. It was not associated with the gift of tongues but other gifts began to operate after that time. I has some experience with the gift of tongues before this event and consider it a very precious gift to have.

    Biblically there is a key passage that throws quite some light on the Baptism of the Spirit. This is the testimony of John the Baptist who was told in John 1 30-34 That the One who would Baptise in the Spirit - unlike all the others coming to Him to be baptised, in every case he would see the Holy Spirit blessing them then leave - this man was different because the Holy Spirit came down and remained permanently upon Him.

    This was the first Baptism in the Spirit...

    Not only was John told that this was how he should recognise who the awaited Messiah was, but that unlike himself, Jesus would be the One who Baptises in the Spirit.

    Why is this important?

    In the old covenant no one was reborn - they all related to their God as a Spirit external to themselves.

    In the new covenant the Spirit takes up permanent residence in our hearts at rebirth.

    This is confirmed in Jeremiah 31:31 and 32.40... and was meant for Jew and gentile alike as stated in Acts 15:8.

    So there are two distinct and seperate experiences - Rebirth and Baptism in the Spirit.

    In the case of Jesus he was indwelled by the spirit at conception so was in the 'reborn' state at birth. He did however still need the Baptism of the Spirit before beginning His ministry.

    Apart from this - for various reasons we 'leak' and need to be refilled or topped up from time to time. This is being 'filled with the Spirit' rather than the Baptism of the Spirit which is a one time event.

    A question that remains is when did the disciples receive the holy spirit within?

    When the twelve and the seventy two were sent out to minister in His name they had a temporary anointing of His Spirit.

    It was after the resurrection that Jesus was able to give them the Holy Spirit permanently within - John 20:22 and later at Pentecost they received the Baptism Holy Spirit permanently upon Acts 2:3

    At the end of the day a more important issue is what have you done with all this.... words are easy but walking in 'faith obedience' is a different issue.

    If you are interested in some of the fruit of my walk with Him you could read my thread here...

    Jesus's Ministry

    My main reason for writing this is because we have an exciting opportunity to serve Him in ways we could never imagine but many settle for a sedate Christianity that bares limited fruit, and miss out on the call to the edge of the Kingdom where the harvest is...

    I am deeply thankful for the ways I have been led and my theology has proved to be robust in real life and service.

    "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...

    Your theology and your freedom are linked so be careful what you believe.


    Carl Emerson.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    United States
    I agree with most everything you stated. Thanks for sharing.
  6. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

    Word of Faith
    I was water baptised at a young age.
    When time and life had gone by I re committed my life to serve Christ.
    I wanted all there was promised in God's Word.
    I prayed fro long periods and at times would start to pray in tongues.
    I had visions and spiritual warfare going on in my life.
    My Wife and I found a full Gospel non denomations Church .
    They called for the laying on of hands , and we went up.
    No out pouring at that time, a short while later by myself I was praising God.
    It happened , a powerful outpouring , I was praising and speaking in tongues for a long time.
    I was in my truck and pulled off the road, and had a little talk with Jesus glory to God.
    My life was forever changed for the better that day.
    Seek and you will find , ask and it shall be given.
    Find a full Gospel Church and have the laying on of hands to be filled with The Holy Spirit. Give praise unto God in song and worship and do not worry about when.
    The anointing will come.
  7. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

    Word of Faith
    Acts 1: 8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    Here is your promise ,recieve the Holy Spirit in Jesus name.

    Get alone with God and praise him for all He Has done, sing unto the Lord for He is worthy to be prasied.
    Come back and testify to the power of God in your life.
    See you soon.
  8. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

    Romans 8.... its called faith. Its reading what God said.. through Christ.. its taking Christ at His word. For me.. the short story is.. they asked if I wanted the holy Spirit. One day I said yes. They read some verses asked me again if I wanted the holy Spirit. I said yes. They prayed and then stopped.

    He said "thats it you got it". Got what? Didnt feel anything. See in this bible study they believed the word of GOD. So if Jesus said.. YOU ROMANS 8...if you ask the Father for the holy Spirit HE WILL GIVE IT!

    See thats all they had was what GOD said. They trusted had faith that if HE said it.. you dont have to worry ..nothing HE WILL DO IT! So I got up.. went to sit down and LOL WOW IT came out all by it self.. YES! AWESOME!

    You cant doubt..dont let that in.. just say sorry you doubted and.. just do what Jesus said. Ask the Father for the holy Spirit.. man then REJOICE! GOD will do it! He has to.. He can not lie..if we knew GOD could never lie.. faith would be so easy. HE cant lie. YOU ASKED He will give.. DONT go by how you FEEL what you see or hear.. walk by what HE SAID! Its when we DOUBT..

    Gods word kicks in again. He said "if you doubt.. let not that man think he will get anything from God" But He also said "if you know He hears you ..you KNOW you HAVE the petitions/prayers you asked for" His will is HIS WORD!

    So.. if you asked.. HE GAVE IT! DONT go by how you feel. Feelings are all over the place.. up down.. trust in HIM! If you asked.. you think He will give you a fish? He is NOT A MAN! Nor thinks like one. He IS faithful
  9. Romans 8

    Romans 8 Well-Known Member

    Blade, thank you for your reply. And while I appreciate your enthusiasm, you did mention that you prayed in the company of others. So, let me ask you; who's faith was it that allowed your breakthrough? Although we have faith of our own, we do need to rely on the faith of others at times. This is how people get healed.

    Last week a Pastor at my church admitted that he has not had a lot of success praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for people, "but so-and-so is very successful", he commented. I do believe that some people have more success with the laying on of hands then others. Faith is the cornerstone of Christianity. It's faith that allows Spirit baptism, healing, prophecy, salvation etc. It is a mistake however to think that one did not get healed or receive the Holy Spirit because one did not have faith.

    I know of two cases where people did not receive the Holy Spirit because of theft. One had stolen a pencil years before and did not confess it. The other, a young girl had stolen a bracelet from a department store she worked at. The Holy Spirit in both cases told the individuals to repent. The 1st individual confessed, the young girl went to the department store and paid the $10 for the bracelet, after repenting they both received.
    God can also make us wait at times, depending on Him. I've heard of people not seeing physical results of their healing up to a year or two after they were told by the Holy Spirit they were healed.

    I'm visiting a Pastor in May that has great faith. If I have not received the Holy Spirit for a reason, the Holy Spirit will tell him why so at least I can know what is the blockage. If it's just a matter of faith, well then I'm covered.

    I'm glad that you had a wonderful experience and thanks again for commenting. God Bless!
  10. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Member

    United States
    Water baptism literally means immersed in water, usually done by another person, such as John the Baptist stated. Spirit baptism is immersed in the Spirit & this is done by Jesus Christ at conversion. A person is regenerated or born again from above, being made alive with the life of God & baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ, immersing them as a member in Christ's church that He is continuing to build.

    To be immersed in the Spirit is to be filled with the Spirit. There is no room for anything else. Sometimes this may be accompanied by various things & sometimes not.

    Deut 34:9 And Joshua, the son of Nun, was full of the Spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him & the sons of Israel hearkened unto him & did as the LORD commanded Moses.

    Here the fullness of the Spirit was for wisdom in leading the people of Israel in Moses' place.

    Numbers 11:26-30 Here the Spirit of God came to rest upon Eldad & Medad in the Israeli camp. As a result, they prophesied.

    In Acts 2:3,4 The Spirit came to rest upon those at Pentecost as tongues of fire & they spoke in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance in known languages.

    I Samuel 10:5-7 Then the Spirit of the LORD will rush upon you & you will prophesy with them & you will be transformed into a different person. When these signs have come, do as the occasion demands, for God is with you.

    Here Saul has the Spirit rush upon him, like the Spirit did in Acts 2:3,4. All the prophets witnessed this sign & the sign of prophesying. When this happened, Saul was transformed into a different person (salvation).

    Luke 1:14,15-17 He will be a joy & delight to you & many will rejoice at his birth. for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink & he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb. 16Many of the sons of Israel he will turn back to the Lord their God. 17And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and POWER of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children & the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

    John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit even from His mother's womb onward. He neither spoke in tongues nor prophesied nor had the Spirit rush upon Him. But he was empowered by the Spirit in that filling to bring about repentance & readiness to meet the Lord for many power.

    Luke 1:80 And the child grew & became STRONG IN SPIRIT & he lived in the wilderness until the time of his public appearance to Israel.

    Luke 1:41-44 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb & Elizabeth was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women & blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb LEAPED FOR JOY.

    Here Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. She & John the Baptist (in her womb) were filled with joy & the baby leaping in the womb. Neither spoke in tongues nor prophesied nor had the Spirit rush on them or rest upon them in a visible sign but one of the results of being filled with the Spirit is being filled with joy overflowing.

    Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating & drinking but of righteousness & peace & JOY IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Acts 2:11,16-19 "...We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons & daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
    18Even on My menservants & maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days & they will prophesy. 19I will show wonders in the heavens above & signs on the earth below...

    Those at Pentecost also prophesied. But they didn't see visions or dream dreams.

    Acts 2:2-4 We assume that Mary was there at Pentecost & was filled with the Holy Spirit. We might assume she was filled with the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:46,47 as she was exulting & her spirit rejoicing & she was prophesying right after Elizabeth did. But Scripture does not say she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

    Luke 1:64,67 Immediately Zechariah’s mouth was opened & his tongue was released & he began to speak, praising God. Then his father Zechariah was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT & PROPHESIED...

    Zechariah when filled with the Spirit but only prophesied & greatly rejoiced.

    Luke 2:25-27 Now there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, who was righteous & devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel & the Holy Spirit WAS UPON HIM. 26The Holy Spirit had REVEALED to him that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27LED BY THE SPIRIT, he went into the temple courts.

    Simeon prophesied & the Spirit was upon Him, the Spirit spoke to Him & he was led by the Spirit. We might assume with all these that he was filled with the Holy Spirit, as we see the 2 verses below showing this about Jesus.

    Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan & was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.

    Mt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

    John 1:32-34 Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove & RESTING ON HIM. 33I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descending & resting (remaining) on is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen & testified that this is the Son of God.”

    Jesus had the Spirit resting on Him, was filled with the Holy Spirit & was led by the Spirit. Jesus did not show any other enablements of the Spirit at this time.

    Judges 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD is (came) upon him (Othniel) & he judged Israel.

    Romans 8:14-16 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

    John 1:12,13 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Those led by the Spirit are children of God. They are regenerated, born again saints.

    Acts 4:7-10 They had Peter & John brought in & began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?” 8Then Peter, FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, said to them, “Rulers & elders of the people! 9If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, 10then let this be known to all of you & to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.

    Here it says Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit, but on this occasion he boldly testified as a witness of Jesus Christ with no other visible signs.

    Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together WAS SHAKEN & they were ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT & began to speak THE WORD OF GOD WITH BOLDNESS.

    Here the gathered body of Christ at that time were gathered in prayer after Peter & John's release from the Jewish authorities. Two things happened when all these gathered disciples were together.

    First the place that they were gathered in was shaken, like in an earthquake. Second, when all of them were filled with the Holy Spirit, they began & continued to speak the Word of God WITH BOLDNESS. These were the only signs that the Holy Spirit enabled to happen.

    Acts 6:2-7 So the Twelve summoned all the disciples & said, “It is unacceptable for us to neglect the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3"Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit & of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. We will appoint this responsibility to them & devote ourselves to prayer & the ministry of the word.”

    5This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith & of the Holy Spirit, as well as Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas & Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6They presented these seven to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. 7So the word of God continued to spread.

    One notices here that 7 men were picked who were all filled with the Holy Spirit & wisdom. They had hands laid upon them. Their filling was to serve widows & those in need. This was the office of deacons. They manifested no signs when the hands were laid upon them.

    I am seeking to harmonize all of Scripture concerning how one would describe a person filled with the Spirit, where the Spirit has come upon them & they are led by the Spirit. So far you can see that a great variety of things might or might not be seen & happen. All this is not our choosing but things happen as the Spirit chooses & as the Spirit enables for very specific purposes. Remember what Jesus said about those who were born of the Spirit, 'that which is born of the flesh is flesh & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ “The wind blows where it wishes & you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from & where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (To be continued)
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  11. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

    Korea, Republic Of
    Your thread title asks about the filling of the Spirit but here you ask about the baptism of the Spirit. Which one, or both, are you interested in?

    I was baptized with the Spirit when I was an infant. Being filled with the Spirit I believe came later.
  12. Romans 8

    Romans 8 Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your post. I agree and also disagree with certain parts. I no longer believe we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. I believe in one baptism of the Holy Spirit, with evidence of speaking in tongues. After Spirit baptism, one may get "refilled", but this simply means they are connecting their Spirit with God's Spirit. They already have the Holy Spirit and can commune with him anytime they wish.

    I don't believe the experience of the Holy Spirit was the same before Pentecost. The Holy Spirit did work through people but not for regeneration, to become a new creation. The Spirit can now take up residence in anyone, and transform us to be like Christ. This was obviously not possible before Christ. So it's a different experience.

    I do not believe that one who does not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not saved, or will not be. But I do think that one who has received has more certainty that he will be saved if he believes till the end.

    On the topic of tongues; I don't think that writing "they spoke with new tongues and prophesied" was necessary every time. All we need do is look at the evidence today. Everyone who receives the Spirit knows they received Him, and they speak in tongues.

    Not at all looking for a debate or anything. This is a highly contested subject.
  13. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Member

    United States
    All I am showing is what the Scriptures actually say & what happens when one is saved throughout the Bible. I am not here to debate either. I am just showing how the Bible harmonizes & some of the same experiences occurred in both the Old & the New Testaments. People were saved by grace through faith in the OT as well as the NT. People were filled with the Holy Spirit in the OT as well as the NT as Scripture actually says.

    My belief rests upon the truth of Scripture, not what I was taught. Some of the things I was taught, I discovered later were not Scriptural.

    Abraham was saved when hearing the gospel just like we do (Galatians 3:8) That is why he is called the 'father' of those who believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus talked personally with Abraham & called Abraham His friend.

    If one is converted, they are born or regenerated by the Holy Spirit. One cannot be saved or converted apart from the Holy Spirit according to Scripture after Scripture. New life in Christ is by the Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit no life of God; no Holy Spirit, a person is not Christ's & not saved.

    Romans 8:9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you & if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ -- this one is not His.

    Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness.

    Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

    Romans 8:14-16 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God's Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

    Jesus Himself taught that unless you are born of the Spirit, regenerated, you cannot see nor enter the kingdom of God in John 3. That is what Nicodemus had to understand in order to be saved.

    I Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that NO ONE speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and NO ONE can say, "Jesus is Lord,"EXCEPT by the Holy Spirit.

    Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

    Romans 10:9 that if you CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH, "Jesus is Lord," & believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For with the heart one believes & is justified & with the mouth one confesses & IS SAVED.

    Matthew 22:43 Jesus said to them, "How then does David IN THE SPIRIT call Him LORD?

    Revelation 1:10 On the Lord's day I was IN THE SPIRIT & I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.

    Joel 2:32 "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”

    I John 4:2 By this you will KNOW the Spirit of God: Every spirit that CONFESSES that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

    I would agree with you that in the NT, there is a difference concerning what the Spirit does concerning the mystery of the gospel as Paul taught.

    The mystery is that both Jew AND Gentile are made one in Christ, as one new man & all receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit by being baptized into the body of Christ. One cannot be in the body of Christ, be Christ's, unless one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    Therefore remember that...you who are Gentiles...at that time were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel & strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope & without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

    14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one & has torn down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments & decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace & RECONCILING both of them to God IN ONE BODY--THROUGH THE CROSS--by which He extinguished their hostility.

    For through Him we both have access to the Father IN ONE SPIRIT. In Him the whole building is fitted together & grows into a holy temple in the Lord...And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God IN HIS SPIRIT.

    No Holy Spirit, no access to the Father for either Jew or Gentile. No baptism in the Spirit, no entrance into the body of Christ.

    Acts 15:7-18 After much discussion, Peter got up & said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days, God made a choice among you that THE GENTILES would hear from my lips the message of the gospel & believe. And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by GIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THEM, JUST AS HE DID TO US. {Jews} He made NO DISTINCTION between us & them, for He CLEANSED THEIR HEARTS BY FAITH. {this is the 'washing' of regeneration & renewal in the Spirit--Titus 3:5}

    Now then, why do you TEST GOD by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, JUST AS THEY ARE.”

    12The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas & Paul describing the signs & wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! Simon has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people TO BE HIS OWN. The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written: ‘After this I will return & rebuild the fallen tent of David. Its ruins I will REBUILD & I will RESTORE it, so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord & all the Gentiles who bear My name, says the Lord who does these things THAT HAVE BEEN KNOW FOR AGES.’

    John 10:9-16 I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he WILL BE SAVED...The thief comes only to steal, kill & destroy. I have come that they may have life & have it IN ALL ITS FULLNESS.

    I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep & My sheep know Me, just as the Father knows Me & I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. I HAVE SHEEP THAT ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD. I must bring them IN AS WELL & they will listen to My voice. Then there will be ONE FLOCK & ONE SHEPHERD.

    So yes, there is this mystery of the gospel that wasn't manifested until long after Pentecost. (The one church at Jerusalem was Jewish for almost 15 years before acknowledgement of Gentiles was accepted, that they received the promised Holy Spirit just as the Jews had received Him.)

    Yet all the prophets had spoken of the salvation of the Gentiles in Christ beforehand & all these OT verses are shown in the NT.

    But it had to happen to the Jews FIRST because the promise of the Holy Spirit had to come to them first because of prophecy needing to be fulfilled. Salvation is of the Jews, Jesus taught the woman at the Samaritan well.

    Galatians 3:1-9 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you RECEIVE THE SPIRIT by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? After STARTING IN THE SPIRIT, are you now finishing in the flesh? Does God LAVISH HIS SPIRIT ON YOU & work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because YOU HEAR & BELIEVE?

    Understand, then, that those WHO HAVE FAITH ARE the sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith & foretold the gospel TO ABRAHAM: “All nations will be BLESSED through you.” 9So those who have faith are blessed ALONG WITH Abraham, the man of faith.

    Gal 3:14,16 He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come TO the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that BY FAITH WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The promises were spoken to Abraham & to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “& to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    Gal 3:22 But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ THE PROMISE might be given to those who BELIEVE.

    Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land & currents on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on YOUR descendants & MY BLESSING on your offspring.

    Proverbs 1:23 If you had repented at My rebuke, then surely I would have POURED OUT MY SPIRIT UPON YOU; I would have made My words known to you.

    Acts 2:33 Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit & has poured out what you now see & hear.

    Isaiah 12:3 With joy you will draw water from the springs of salvation.

    Isaiah 35:6 Then the lame will leap like a deer & the mute tongue will shout for joy. For waters will gush forth in the wilderness & streams in the desert.

    John 4:10-14 Jesus answered, “If you knew the gift of God & who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him & He would have given you living water.”

    “Sir,” the woman replied, “You have nothing to draw with & the well is deep. Where then will You get this living water?..“Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”

    John 7:37-39 On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up & called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me & drink. ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN ME may come & drink! For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet GLORIFIED.

    Rom 3:29,30 Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith & the uncircumcised through that same faith.

    Romans 4:9ff Is this BLESSING only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised?

    Charles Finney, an American evangelist, explains it very well:

    This blessing then promised was not Christ HIMSELF, but some promise TO Christ & through Christ to all the nations of the earth.

    The text informs us that THIS BLESSING PROMISED to Abraham & to his seed, & through Christ his seed, to all the nations of the earth, IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    This is the grand thing upon which the prophets & the inspired writers seem to have had THEIR EYE ON ALL ALONG UNDER THE OLD DISPENSATION. And by a careful examination of the scriptures, it will be found that the promises are one unbroken chain from Abraham to Christ & even to the time when the canon of the scripture was complete, everywhere pointing out this particular blessing.

    It was promised sometimes in figurative language, where the Spirit of God is represented as water. But in most instances the prophets have spoken without a figure & promised the Spirit by name. Isa. 32:15, "Until the Spirit be poured upon us from on high...and Isa.44:3, "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty & floods upon the dry ground. I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed & my blessing upon thine offspring."

    And Scripture says, Isa.59:20,21, "The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those IN JACOB who turn from transgression. As for me, this is my covenant WITH THEM, saith the Lord; My Spirit that is upon thee & my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from this time forward & for ever."

    Jer. 31:33, "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts & write it in their hearts & will be their God & they shall be My people."

    Ezek.11:19, "And I will give them one heart & I will put a new spirit within you & I will take the stony heart out of their flesh & will give them an heart of flesh."

    Ezek 36:27, "And I will put my Spirit within you & cause you to walk in My statutes & you shall keep My judgments & do them."

    Acts 1:4, 5, "And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT not many days hence."

    John 16:7, 13: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." "Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak & He will shew you things to come."

    John 14:16, 17: "And I will pray the Father & He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you FOREVER--even the Spirit of truth; whom the world CANNOT RECEIVE, because it sees Him not, neither knows him: but you know Him; for He dwells with you & willl be in you."

    A careful examination of these passages will show what the great blessing under the eye of inspiration was. The great thing promised to Abraham as affirmed in the text m& in these passages which I have now quoted, with numerous other passages that might be quoted, demonstrate that the great thing promised was the Holy Spirit. This was the SPIRITUAL BLESSING that belonged to all nations, while temporal Canaan belonged only to the Jews. In Eph. 1:13, the Holy Spirit is expressly called the "Holy Spirit of promise."

    So I agree with you that the promised Holy Spirit first to the Jews was not fulfilled until Pentecost.

    The Holy Spirit was not given to DWELL IN BELIEVERS FOREVER before Pentecost as Scripture has shown. They were not yet SEALED in the Spirit for the day of redemption. You may not agree with this but I am just showing what Scripture actually says in these verses. This is a topic for another thread.

    Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

    Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

    2 Tim 2:19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing THIS SEAL: “The Lord knows those who are His” & “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

    Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, A SEAL OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE FAITH which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    But the Holy Spirit did dwell with various ones who believed in the promised Messiah in the OT & they could be filled with the Holy Spirit just as in the NT.

    Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will REST ON HIM-- the Spirit of wisdom & of understanding, the Spirit of counsel & of might, the Spirit of the knowledge & fear of the LORD--
  14. Romans 8

    Romans 8 Well-Known Member

    In the Old Testament people were saved? How? Jesus had not yet provided the way. This is the difference I'm speaking of.

    If it could only be this simple.

    Again, Salvation wasn't possible yet. Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of Jesus' work on the cross. Nobody was "Saved" until Jesus was resurrected.

    Maybe this is where the confusion lies with the Holy Spirit. Until Jesus' resurrection, God would put his Holy Spirit on those of whom he chose. VERY few. After Jesus came, we all have this opportunity. But again, I do believe it's a more intimate experience now as we have His Spirit in us, working through us, and regenerating us as new creations.

    Yes, without the Holy Spirit, there is not regeneration.

    You're preaching to the choir my friend.

    I don't believe this. This would condemn probably 80% of Christians today, and by your analysis of the Old Testament, about 99.9% of the people that lived before Christ. I don't believe that we need to be baptized in the Spirit to be children of God. The bible says we need simply believe and we will be saved. It does not say be baptized in the Spirit, and speak in tongues, and prophesy, and you will be saved.

    There a major difference between a Christian that has/has not been baptized in the Spirit. But it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit has no influence on these believers. Without the Holy Spirit's influence, none of us would be Christians at all.

    You agree with me on this point, but you also state that salvation was possible before Jesus lived. Do you see the conflict?
  15. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Member

    United States
    Basic Christian doctrine is that those in the OT WERE saved because they looked by faith at the coming Seed & Messiah. There isn't any argument on that one at all in terms of ancient historic Christianity. Abraham is the FATHER of all who believe & are saved!

    The gospel was preached to Abraham & he believed in the gospel! Jesus talked to Abraham and called Abraham His friend. That is why the Jews tried to stone Him for saying that he had seen & talked to Abraham and that Jesus claimed He is I AM, the memorial name of the God of the OT!

    Galatians 3:6-9 Even as Abraham believed God & it was ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Know you therefore--that they which are OF FAITH, the same are THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, PREACHED BEFORE THE GOSPEL TO ABRAHAM, saying, In you shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed WITH faithful Abraham.

    Romans 4:3-8 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believe God & it was credited to him as righteousness.” David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven & whose sins have been covered. “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

    Rom 4:19-25 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a 100 years old & the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but GREW STRONG IN FAITH, giving glory to God & being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but FOR OUR SAKE ALSO, to whom IT WILL BE CREDITED, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions & was raised because of our justification.

    Jesus said in the kingdom of heaven we will be sitting at table at the marriage supper of the Lamb WITH Abraham, Isaac & Jacob!

    Jesus said, 'Have you not read? I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. You are mistaken because you know not the Scriptures nor the power of God.

    Matt 8:10-12 When Jesus heard this, He marveled & said to those following Him, “TRULY I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world--from east & west--and sit down with Abraham, Isaac & Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth.”

    How can you say that no OT saints were saved. They all looked to the Seed of Eve to crush the serpent. (Gen 3:16)

    Job says I know my Redeemer lives & believed in the bodily resurrection!

    Job 19:23-27 “Oh that my words were written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book! That with an iron stylus & lead they were engraved in the rock forever! As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives & at the last He will take His stand on the earth. even after my skin is destroyed; yet from my flesh I shall see God; whom I myself shall behold & whom my eyes will see & not another. My heart faints within me!

    Have you never read Hebrews 11? There is a multitude of OT saints that were saved by faith. They looked forward to the coming of the PROMISED Messiah & the promised seed of Eve & the promised seed of Abraham & the promised seed of David. They believed in God's promises of a Redeemer & a suffering & reigning Messiah.

    Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony THAT HE WAS RIGHTEOUS, God testifying about his gifts & THROUGH FAITH, though he is dead, he still speaks.

    God instituted animal sacrifice back in Genesis 3, as a picture of the coming suffering Messiah. Abel understood that & offered the right sacrifice of a lamb, knowing that shed blood is needed to atone for sin. Cain's offering was rejected for that reason. Scripture says Abel obtained the testimony that he was righteous. There it is again. He had righteousness credited to his account with God on the basis of faith, just like Abraham & just like us.

    They look forward in time, believing God's promises. We look back.

    Scripture says that Jesus was slain SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. His blood covered all since the beginning of the world, with Adam & Eve & onward. The names of those who have faith in the LORD have all been written in the Lamb's Book of Life SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. This is God's omniscience, His foreknowledge.

    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names have not been written in the scroll (book) of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Who did Adam walk with in the garden? It was the pre-incarnate Christ! No one has seen the Father at any time.

    Heb 11:5,6 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death & he was not found because GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is & that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

    Enoch was one of two people that went directly to heaven without dying. Again he obtained the witness that he was PLEASING TO GOD. He was saved.

    Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world & BECAME AN HEIR OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS ACCORDING TO FAITH.

    Again he was saved by faith in God & he also is an heir of the righteousness that God gives & credits to those who have faith in Him. He found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD! He was saved by grace through faith!

    Gen 6:7,8 And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth & He was grieved in His heart. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said to Moses, "I will do this very thing you have asked, for you have found grace in My sight & I KNOW YOU BY NAME."

    Ezekiel 14:14 Even if these three men--NOAH, DANIEL & JOB--were in it, their righteousness could deliver only themselves, declares the Lord GOD.

    Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is NOT ASHAMED TO BE CALLED THEIR GOD; for He has prepared a city FOR THEM.

    This same city is the one we hope for as well, by faith.

    Jesus is God. Jesus created the heavens & the earth. No one can see God the Father, who is invisible. So who did the OT believers see? They saw the pre-incarnate Messiah, the One the OT called THE Angel of the LORD.

    It was the Messiah who wrestled with Jacob. It was the Messiah who was God visible in Genesis 18 when He talked to Abraham. Who do you think Moses talked to face to face, as a man talks to his friend, in the tent of meeting? The Messiah! Jesus knew Moses!

    At the Mt. of Transfiguration, who appeared with Jesus? Moses & Elijah, Moses representing the Law & Elijah representing the prophets. Scripture says they were IN GLORY!

    And what were they talking to Jesus about? They were talking to Him of His soon coming crucifixion! They are very much alive & already in glory. That is our hope as the faithful today: the hope of glory, being in glory like they are.

    God is the Triune God. All three Persons of the Trinity were active since the foundation of the world. I covered Christ. Now I will show the Holy Spirit was also active as well & in those whose faith was active.

    Numbers 27:18 And YHWH said to Moses: "Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man IN WHOM IS THE SPIRIT, lay your hand on him."

    Judges 3:10 The Spirit of YHWH came upon him & he judged Israel.

    Exodus 31:1-3 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "See, I have called BY NAME Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have FILLED HIM WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge & in all manner of workmanship.

    No clearer statement of the intimate interworking of the triune God—Father, Son & Holy Spirit—and especially of the Spirit’s powerful role can be found in the OT than in Isaiah’s prophecy of the Servant of the Lord (Is. 42:1–9).

    The passage summarizes the redeeming work of all three Persons of the Trinity in the salvation of the lost. It ties together a remarkable harmony, both OT & NT understandings of God’s grace. It sheds light on our understanding of the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is just as active in the OT as He is in the NT. .

    Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

    Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an 120 years.

    Numbers 11:17 Then I will come down & speak with you there & I will take of the Spirit who is upon you & will put Him upon them & they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you will not bear it all alone.

    Numbers 11:25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud & spoke to him & He took some of the Spirit that was on Moses & placed that Spirit on the seventy elders. As the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied--but they never did so again.

    Num 11:26 Two men, however, had remained in the camp—one named Eldad & the other Medad—& the Spirit rested on them. They were among those listed, but they had not gone out to the tent & they prophesied in the camp.

    Num 11:29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous on my account? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets & that the LORD would place His Spirit on them!”
  16. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Member

    United States
    Num 14:24 But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

    Num 24:2-4 When Balaam looked up & saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, THE SPIRIT OF GOD CAME UPON HIM & he lifted up an oracle, saying: “This is the prophecy of Balaam son of Beor, the prophecy of a man whose eyes are open, 4the prophecy of one who hears the words of God, who sees a vision from the Almighty...

    Judges 6:34 But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet & Abiezer was gathered after him.

    Judges 11:29 Then the Spirit of YHWH came on Jephthah & he passed over Gilead & Manasseh & passed over Mizpeh of Gilead & from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

    Judges 13:2-5 Now there was a man from Zorah named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, whose wife was barren & had no children. 3THE ANGEL OF YHWH appeared to the woman & said to her, “It is true that you are barren & have no children; but you will conceive & give birth to a son.

    Now please be careful not to drink wine or strong drink & not to eat anything unclean. For behold, you will conceive & give birth to a son. And no razor shall come over his head, because the boy will be a Nazirite, SET APART TO GOD FROM THE WOMB & he will begin the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”

    Just a quick sidelight on how God did this with various other people in Scripture, many in the OT.

    Jer 1:4,5 The word of the LORD came to me, saying: “Before I formed you IN THE WOMB I KNEW YOU & before you were born I SET YOU APART & appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

    Hosea 12:3,4 In the womb he took his brother by the heel & in his manhood he wrestled WITH GOD. Yea, he wrestled with THE ANGEL & prevailed; he wept & made supplication {prayed} to Him. He found Him in Bethel {Gen 28:10-22; John 1:51} & there He spoke with us: the LORD is the God of Hosts—YHWH is His name of renown.

    Here you will notice that this special Angel, THE Angel of YHWH, is also called God. This is the pre-incarnate Christ, Jesus being the visible image of the invisible God. And who did Jacob meet & see at Bethel at the top of the ladder? YHWH--He is the God of hosts! That was Jesus, the everlasting God the Son, appearing to Jacob.

    Jacob wrestled with God, THE Angel, & prevailed. He wept & prayed to Him, He spoke to Jacob at Bethel; YHWH is His name of renown.

    And Jacob will be sitting at the table of the marriage supper of the Lamb & we will be able to meet him! Hallelujah!

    Luke 1:15 He will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink & he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb.

    Gal 1:15,16 But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles...

    Isaiah 49:1,5 Listen to me, O islands & pay attention, O distant peoples: The LORD called Me from the womb; from the body of My mother He named Me. And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant...{Messianic prophecy}

    Romans 8:30 And those He PREDESTINED, He also CALLED; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

    Back again to the Holy Spirit actively working & moving in the lives of OT people.

    Judges 13:25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him {Samson} at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah & Eshtaol.

    Judges 14:6,19; 15:4 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him...And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him...and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him...

    I Samuel 10:6,10; 11:6 At that time the Spirit of the LORD will come powerfully upon you & you will prophesy with them. You will be transformed into a different person...Behold, a company of prophets met him & the Spirit of God came upon him & he prophesied among them...And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings...

    I Sam 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil & anointed him in the midst of his brethren. And the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.

    Matt 22:43,44 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, ‘The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies under Your feet.”’

    Lord is the Hebrew name, 'Adonai' & this name is used only of God! David was operating under the direction of the Spirit & He called Adonai, 'my Lord.' The prophecy about sitting at the Father's right hand, etc. refers DIRECTLY to Jesus Christ.

    Just as Thomas said to Jesus, 'My Lord & my God; so Jesus plainly states that the Messiah was David's Adonai, my Lord!

    Rom 10:9 'Because if you confess Jesus as Lord...you will be saved.'

    David looked forward to Christ's death & resurrection (prophesied of it himself) & sitting on his throne forever, believing the Promise of God that all this would happen, even though he didn't see the fulfillment until after he died.

    Acts 2:30 But he {David} was a prophet & knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne.

    2 Sam 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me {David}; His word was on my tongue.

    God used David to record the Word of the LORD in the book of 2 Samuel by the Holy Spirit, just like all the other writers of Scripture did.

    2 Pet 1:20,21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Back again to the Spirit moving & working in the OT. I hope you are learning, as I have, concerning the Lord moving ever since Genesis 1:1 & down through all the books of the Bible until we come to the NT & the incarnation of the eternal Son of God, He becoming a man.

    Here all those promises & prophesies of God, that the saints of old believed, were now being fulfilled. Though they died before the fulfillment, their faith still speaks. Abel is still speaking! (Heb 11:4)

    I will stop here. I have only gotten into I Samuel so far & 29 MORE books in the OT to go, filled with the moving & work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the saints of old, whose faith is still speaking.

    John 8:23ff Then He told them, “You are from below; I AM from above. You are of this world; I AM not of this world. 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that-- I AM, you will die in your sins.”

    “Who ARE You?” they asked. “Just what I have been telling you FROM THE BEGINNING,” Jesus replied.

    “Abraham is our father,” they replied. “If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”

    Which of you can prove Me guilty of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

    Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see death.” “Now we know that You have a demon!” declared the Jews. “Abraham died & so did the prophets, yet You say that anyone who keeps Your word will never taste death. Are You GREATER than our father Abraham? He died, as did the prophets. WHO DO YOU CLAIM TO BE?”

    Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say ‘He is our God.’ You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word.


    Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old & You have SEEN ABRAHAM?”

    “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born--I AM!”{memorial name of God, YHWH--see Exodus 3:14,15}

    God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM' has sent me to you.’”

    God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘YHWH, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac & the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever & this is how I am to be remembered IN EVERY GENERATION.

    Abraham was overjoyed to see, by faith, Jesus Day! He saw it through the eyes of faith & was glad. Jesus did indeed talk to Abraham about these things. Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God come down out of heaven, called Abraham His friend!

    Please see the following website for wonderful insights into the parallel of Abraham offering his only son (notice Abraham had another son, Ishmael yet Scripture says Isaac was his one & only Son--because Isaac was the true child of Promise) and God the Father offering His only Son.

    Abraham—A Friend of God

    And you don't think Abraham knew about God providing a sacrifice & belief in the resurrection? Please read again Genesis Chapter 22 & Hebrews 11!

    Genesis 22:2,7,8,11-13 “Take your son,” God said, “YOUR ONLY SON, Isaac, whom YOU LOVE & go to the land of Moriah. Offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will show you...”The fire & the wood are here,” said Isaac, “but where is THE LAMB for the burnt offering?”

    Abraham answered, “GOD HIMSELF WILL PROVIDE THE LAMB for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two walked on together.

    Just then, THE ANGEL OF YHWH called out to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad & do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Then Abraham looked up & saw behind him a ram in a thicket, caught by its horns. So he went & took the ram & offered it as a burnt offering IN PLACE OF his son.

    Heb 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac on the altar. He who had received THE PROMISES was ready to offer his one & only son, even though God had said to him, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.” He accounted that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead. Therefore, he received him back, figuratively speaking.

    When you harmonize verses in the Bible like this, the Word of God comes alive with revelation. Sometimes we just don't see it until we harmonize all of them.
  17. Saint JOHN

    Saint JOHN New Member

    3 days after i repented and was baptized (full immersion ) with the bible evidence of speaking in tongues..just like day of Pentecost..hasn't changed..though mans religious ideas have !!
  18. Romans 8

    Romans 8 Well-Known Member

    I wish I had it that easy. I was prayer for again today, we're talking the whole church was rallying at the alter, I had probably 4 or 5 people praying for me in a span of twenty minutes, but still no tongues. I went home and tried again for an hour or so and still nothing. I'm feeling a bit discouraged but I won't give up. I want to experience things like Carl and Oscarr. I'm excited for that actually, the members of the Pentecostal church I'm at love God and the Holy Spirit is very present. Anyway, I'll be visiting an amazing pastor from Australia in May that should sort this out. God Bless (if anyone is listening) :)
  19. Saint JOHN

    Saint JOHN New Member

    ask and keep on asking..seek and keep on seeking..for he that asks will receive..he that seeks will find..etc dont be discouraged..dont try and get tongues it is automatic when you receive..the spirit will cry out to God in an undefilable language he gives you as his seal on you. Focus on getting in contact with him..for REAL.
  20. AWorkInProgress

    AWorkInProgress A fool becoming wise

    United States

    When I first started my walk and I ended up in a Pentecostal church. I wondered the same. I have learned that there are no such thing as the 'haves and have nots' in Christianity. When by God's grace you receive the gift of faith in believing in the redeeming work of Christ. You receive your salvation, and your Spirit is now reconciled with God's. The visual example is the curtain between the "Holies of Holies" was cut thru the center with the death of Christ. Prior to this action you were an enemy of God. Now you are an adopted son to a really big family.

    I say this that there is only one conversion, one regeneration, one salvation. There are not levels of Christianity. We all have the same Holy Spirit abide in us. We have access to all the gifts, but usually there are some dominate gifts are given.

    The Apostle Paul teaches about Spiritual gifts and how they work in unity much like body parts make one one body with Jesus as the head. Found in 2 Corinthians 12. The Lord wills that you a part of the body, let him help you discover where that role is. It is a process, but there is going to be something you bring to the table that other's can't do.

    Just a microcosm example
    Just last Sunday the preacher gave a message using the scripture. Later in the day my Mother in law had health concern and we went to the ER. She going thru some very stressing times. While we were waiting for results she called me into her room because she needed someone to talk to. As we were talking her situation matched up to the message we received earlier. I encouraged her on how to apply it to her situation. Now she is encouraged and she knows God got her back. She got a good bill of health as well.

    Preacher was just doing what he was called to do. He had no clue who my mother in law was or what she was going thru. He just did what he is called to do. I didn't expect to spend 'one on one' time with my Mother in law, and the Lord used me to help her understand the message better and how to apply it to her life. Now she is uplifted in her trial.

    You are saved or you are not. You are a temple of the Holy Spirit or you are not. There is no middle ground. If you are saved, then pray for God to help you find your place. It will take time, usually volunteering is a great way to start. You will find out quickly where you can best serve the body of Christ.