How is Salvation, or anything you get from God, a "free gift" if our own will got it for us...?

Bcs90

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All not some not most but ALL good things come from God. So that tiny thought, desire what ever it was that lead you to Christ.. that you (being anyone) think it was your own will.. never was. That was the holy Spirit. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

If it was will alone.. no one would have found Christ. No man can come to me EXCEPT..

brother, what did Jesus mean by "raise him up at the last day?" raise who? is he metaphorically speaking of man? and why last day?
 
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greenguzzi

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You could have just said "I don't know," or maybe not reply at all.
Or I could have used the /sarcasm tag.
Also I could say the same back to you, or tell you where you can go. But I won't because, unlike some people, I'm not an aarrssee.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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brother, what did Jesus mean by "raise him up at the last day?" raise who? is he metaphorically speaking of man? and why last day?
The resurrection of Jesus from the dead was the first time that a human being was actually raised from the dead. Jesus said that in this way He is the first-born of many brethren. He said in the same way that He was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit, all those who put their faith in Him will be raised from the dead when He comes again. The last day will be the last day of the church dispensation. That will be the last day of grace, after which no one will be saved, but all those who are unsaved will come to judgment. The Scripture says that if the same power that raised Jesus from the day dwell in us, He will raise our mortal bodies. This is speaking of the resurrection of the faithful in Christ along with the Rapture when those who are still alive in Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The resurrected dead in Christ, and those who are caught up will meet with the Lord and return with Him. The Scripture says that He will return with ten thousands of His saints.
 
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PaulCyp1

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If I offer you a hundred dollars free and clear if you come to my home Tuesday afternoon between 1:00 and 2:00, is my gift any less free because I placed conditions on your receiving it?
 
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How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!
It is really simple. If I gave you a hundred dollars for your birthday and you refused to receive it, is it then not a gift given to you freely even through your will prevented you from receiving it and benefiting from it?
 
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Strong in Him

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Just don't seem fair -- does it?
Sometimes man hardens his heart.
Sometimes God hardens mans heart.

I don't believe that God hardens peoples hearts, unless they have, deliberately and knowingly, rejected him many times. Then it might be that they are unable to repent.
But I certainly don't believe that God says, "I created X in my image, I know all about them (Psalms 139) but I have deliberately made them with a hard heart; one that is unable to respond to me and the Good News." What father would create a new life and then show a complete disinterest in that life and refuse any opportunity to be its father? Yet God is a loving, perfect heavenly Father.
 
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Guojing

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Or I could have used the /sarcasm tag.
Also I could say the same back to you, or tell you where you can go. But I won't because, unlike some people, I'm not an aarrssee.

So do you actually have a view on what was stated?
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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OK, let me try another way to make my point:
Let's say my boat just sank. I can't swim very well, and I was stupid enough not to wear a life jacket.
Then this large ship comes by. But because it's a large ship, it can't come close. Someone on the ship throws out a raft attached to the ship by a rope.
It takes a lot out of me to swim to the raft, but I make it and am saved and pulled on board.
Who gets the credit for my rescue? Is it me for taking all that effort to get the the raft? Or is it the crew of the ship who did what they could to save me?
Am I going to charge the crew of the ship for all the effort I used to get to the raft? If your answer is "yes", then salvation is not free. If "no" then salvation is free.
QED
I think both sides would get some credit in that example. You had to give some effort to reach the raft knowing you weren’t able to swim well. That deserves some credit too in my opinion.
 
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His student

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How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...? Comments...? God Bless!
For the record - I'm pretty much a Reformed theology sort of guy. I just don't think that one has to tow the entire 5-point (supposedly) Calvinist line to be so.

For instance - I take exception to the "limited atonement" point as it is usually presented. I also believe that "election" can be "conditional" and still remain sovereign election.

I do believe in the eternal security of believers based on God's faithfulness to complete what HE began in us. I also believe in irresistible grace and that it does not negate free will.

I do believe in total depravity. But not to the extent that those who have not been born again cannot approach God in some way - thus securing His favor.

Having said that - I believe that the often heard comments by Reformed types to the effect that receiving a gift with our own free will equates to canceling out the idea of it being a "free" gift.

I just think that saying that is ridiculous on several levels.
 
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JLHargus

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How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

The same way anyone can receive any free gift by willing to accept it or reject it.
 
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renniks

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How is Salvation, or anything you/me/we get or receive from God a "free gift" if our own will in any way got it or gets it for us...?

Comments...?

God Bless!
It's a self defeating line of thought. If you think God did it all without even your permission, you are just a robot. If you think you somehow won your salvation because you accepted it, you missed the whole point. Free will is all through scripture. If you believe it's not, then you have to believe God made it impossible for you to believe otherwise, so your argument is meaningless, like a computer telling the person who made it what it thinks about being made, when it can really only say what it's been programmed to say.
 
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Neogaia777

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If I offer you a hundred dollars free and clear if you come to my home Tuesday afternoon between 1:00 and 2:00, is my gift any less free because I placed conditions on your receiving it?

It is really simple. If I gave you a hundred dollars for your birthday and you refused to receive it, is it then not a gift given to you freely even through your will prevented you from receiving it and benefiting from it?

The same way anyone can receive any free gift by willing to accept it or reject it.

If it's so simple, then what do we have to do or not do or choose or whatever, to either accept or reject it, because some people think it takes all kinds of things, all kind of work or works on our part to accept it/keep it , etc...

If it's that simple or so simple, then what is required for us to be saved...?

And why does it not seem so simple, and why do many people try to complicate the heck out of it, etc...?

And then, also, what influenced you to make the decision to either accept or reject it, or make the choice or choices that you did...? And was that not all due to all prior or pre-existing factors and or conditions going on with you inside of you at the time, and that were prior to that, and those that were prior to that, etc, that led up to that, etc, or very heavily influenced the way you made your choice or choices or whatever, etc, prior to that, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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IOW's, if what caused or causes you to make your choices, is making or deciding your choices, did or do you, or how did you really make a real true choice?

Cause i think that all our choices are caused by whatever happens or is happening or going on, in both inside and outside of you, prior to that, all the time and every single time...

And if that is always the case, how are we really making and true real choices? How is anyone, etc?

And this I believe goes all the way back to God in the beginning or before the beginning, the original cause of all.

God Bless!
 
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And then, also, what influenced you to make the decision to either accept or reject it...?
God Bless!
It is the economical work of the Holy Trinity which influences people to make the decision to either accept or reject it. Particularly the work of the Holy Spirit which was sent by the Son in accordance with the will of the Father.
 
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Neogaia777

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It is the economical work of the Holy Trinity which influences people to make the decision to either accept or reject it. Particularly the work of the Holy Spirit which was sent by the Son in accordance with the will of the Father.
Doesn't the Heavenly Father already know what we are going to choose, including the influencing of other Spirit's etc, long before He ever made any of us?

And if so, how can or do we really choose or make a choice? And what?, that the Heavenly Father doesn't already know?, or what? Knew from the beginning, made that way, etc? Or what?

God Bless!
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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Doesn't the Heavenly Father already know what we are going to choose, including the influencing of other Spirit's etc, long before He ever made any of us?

And if so, how can or do we really choose or make a choice? And what?, that the Heavenly Father doesn't already know?, or what? Knew from the beginning, made that way, etc? Or what?

God Bless!
If I left a batch of cookies in front of my 4 year old son and walked away, did he not choose to take a cookie even though I knew he would take a cookie when I walked away?
 
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Neogaia777

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If I left a batch of cookies in front of my 4 year old son and walked away, did he not choose to take a cookie even though I knew he would take a cookie when I walked away?
He could have chose not to, and would you have known that, or all the prior precursors or factors or pre-existing conditions (going on both inside his body and outside of his body, around him, etc) that would have led up to or made him not take one or not...?

You see "human illustrations" fail because were not God or God's that are "all-knowing"...

All human illustrations fail in the light of a (supposedly) all-knowing, and all-knowing from the very beginning, God...

God Bless!
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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He could have chose not to, and would you have known that, or all the prior precursors or factors or pre-existing conditions (going on both inside his body and outside of his body, around him, etc) that would have led up to or made him not take one or not...?

You see "human illustrations" fail because were not God or God's that are "all-knowing"...

All human illustrations fail in the light of a (supposedly) all-knowing, and all-knowing from the very beginning, God...

God Bless!
It doesn't matter. Even if I was all knowing, well in this case I was 99% certain, it doesn't change the fact that my son made a decision by his own free will. Just because God knows the decisions we make before we make them, it doesn't mean that they are not our decisions. Otherwise, we would not be responsible for our decisions. Thus, God would then have created people for the sole purpose of them spending eternity in hell. God would be the cause of all sins because he would also be responsible for everyone's decision to sin. That doesn't sound like the God in the Bible.
 
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Neogaia777

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It doesn't matter. Even if I was all knowing, well in this case I was 99% certain, it doesn't change the fact that my son made a decision by his own free will. Just because God knows the decisions we make before we make them, it doesn't mean that they are not our decisions. Otherwise, we would not be responsible for our decisions. Thus, God would then have created people for the sole purpose of them spending eternity in hell. God would be the cause of all sins because he would also be responsible for everyone's decision to sin. That doesn't sound like the God in the Bible.
No, it sounds like the Heavenly Father God Jesus spoke about...

Who has the right to do whatever He wishes and still be God and still be deserving of our honor and obedience and worship to Him as God...

God Bless!
 
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