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How I came to embrace Preterism.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Manifestation1*AD70, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. If one take the time to read his Bible and believed the words of Jesus. He would know the voice of God. Jesus also said my sheep hear him voice. (John 10:27) :clap:

    I know the voice of God how about you?
  2. Autumn

    Autumn Member

    Parousia 70,

    If preterists believe that the reason Christ had to have come "soon" as in 70A.D. is because that is what the disciples would have believed Jesus to mean (which I think is a little bit of a stretch for me to believe, since the disciples seemed on very many occasions to understand very little of what Christ said due to the fact that He spoke in Spirit.) Anyway, Peter, one of Jesus' disciples says in

    2 Peter 3
    8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice,beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

    If Peter understood that "soon" did not mean right then, then why can't you? :confused:

    Another thing that I found as I was reading 2 Peter is this:

    The Coming Day of the Lord

    3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was (15) formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    Why would Peter write verse 9 if when the Lord came we would still have a chance to repent and become saved? It appears to me that Peter sees that this earth as we know it and all that roam about it that are wicked will be destroyed. If he did not believe this way, I do not think that he would have used the parellel when all on the earth were destroyed in the flood.

    I read your passages about the earth going on forever. The only one that really states such is Ecclesiastes 1:4. However when reading the full passage it seems to me that he is saying that compared to how short human life is, the earth goes on.
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States

    Peter was indeed saying that God is not slack concerning his promise, He is saying that no matter if God promised to do somehting tomorrow or whether he promised to do it in 1000 years makes no difference to God when it comes to fulfilling that promise. What Peter is not saying is that if God promised to do something tomorrow, He could wait 1000 years to fulfill it, and still be true to His promise.

    Every time a time limit is attached to prophesy, it is given to be understood by how time relates to MAN, and not how time relates to God. Every time, without fail, always.

    The timing of the prophecy is just as important as the events of the prophecy.

    Think about that for a moment.

    What purpose would it serve if God gave a specific prophecy of judgment to a wicked nation, telling them that He would fulfill it within a specific time frame, and warned those people of the coming judgment, if the time passages (and the whole prophecy itself for that matter) were actually for some other generation of people? What purpose would the warnings serve the nation to whom it was originally given? To be quite honest, it wouldn’t serve any purpose at all. How would that nation interpret the character and nature of God? That is to say, how would those people view God if He swore that He would judge them at a certain time, and then He didn’t follow through with His judgment? What would they think of God? That He can’t be trusted? That He speaks empty words and threats? That He lied?

    When we try and mis-use 2 Peter 3:8-9 as a formula to interpret prophetic time, i.e., that the imminent time statements in the New Testament concerning Christ’s return in the first century are really "for many years from now," i.e., our time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God. If the futurist is correct in his interpretation and application of 2 Peter 3, then God is made out to be a liar because He will not fulfill His word when He said He would. Plain and simple. If the futurist is correct, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost. Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.

    Did you notice the other thing about Peter's theology? There is no millennium.
    Christ comes and immediatly ushers in the New heavens and earth. Where is the millennium? Did the Holy Spirit fail to lead him into all truth about that?

    What about Psalms 78:69?
    Ps 78:69
    And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

    How long is forever?

    I'm glad you are searching the scriptures, but I'd still like your take on Luke 21:20-22

    If Jesus didn't mean that "all things written" would be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, what do you believe He meant when He said "all things written" would be fulfilled then?

    In Christ,
  4. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!


    That is an excellent point you have made. I have re-read the chapter, and am posting it here:

    "2 Peter 3 NLT:
    1 This is my second letter to you, dear friends, and in both of them I have tried to stimulate your wholesome thinking and refresh your memory. 2 I want you to remember and understand what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.

    3 First, I want to remind you that in the last days there will be scoffers who will laugh at the truth and do every evil thing they desire. 4 This will be their argument: "Jesus promised to come back, did he? Then where is he? Why, as far back as anyone can remember, everything has remained exactly the same since the world was first created." 5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth up from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the world with a mighty flood. 7 And God has also commanded that the heavens and the earth will be consumed by fire on the day of judgment, when ungodly people will perish.

    8 But you must not forget, dear friends, that a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.

    9 The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and everything in them will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be exposed to judgment. F14

    11 Since everything around us is going to melt away, what holy, godly lives you should be living! 12 You should look forward to that day and hurry it along – the day when God will set the heavens on fire and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world where everyone is right with God. 14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to live a pure and blameless life. And be at peace with God. 15 And remember, the Lord is waiting so that people have time to be saved. This is just as our beloved brother Paul wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him – 16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters around to mean something quite different from what he meant, just as they do the other parts of Scripture – and the result is disaster for them. 17 I am warning you ahead of time, dear friends, so that you can watch out and not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people. I don't want you to lose your own secure footing. 18 But grow in the special favor and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.To him be all glory and honor, both now and forevermore. Amen."
  5. Back To The Future

    Back To The Future New Member

    That was a great post. Really got me thinking. YOur right. If God was going to judge a nation, why would he wait thousands of years to do something he said he was going to do in the generation of people he was speaking to. What would it have mattered to them then. :clap:

    Everytime you write something, its like a light bulb going off in my head. :holy:

    Thank you for your dedication to this place and all the good posts.
    Nancy :wave:
  6. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    Hi Autumn,

    If the "soon" passages were the only thing that preterism hung on then, yes, it might be a stretch. But preterism is built on the very clear statements made by Christ and the Disciples concerning a 1st Century Coming/judgement. This is supported by understanding the covenantal purpose of the judgment prophecied about in both the OT and NT (Mt 23:32, for example). Preterism does not rest on one single verse, or even on a couple of verses, but it is supported from numerous contexts (historical, scriptural, grammatical, etc.)

    Yes, while the disciples walked with Jesus in the flesh they did not understand certain things (they certainly were not confused about everything He taught). But remember that Jesus promised that when they received the Holy Spirit He would instruct them on things that would occur in the future, so they that they would in fact "understand"...

    "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.(John 16:12-13)"

    So as you can see, before Christ's death, the disciples were clueless about certain things. But after they received the Holy Spirit they would be led into "all truth" and would be shown "things to come". They would no longer be the befuddled disciples they once were.

    "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)". Even the teachings that stumped them in the past would be remembered and understood, because the Holy Ghost would instruct them.

    So the bottome line, Autumn, is that the after Pentacost the Disciples were not the same band of confused men that we read of in the Gospels. They were mandated by God to govern the Body of Christ and were led into all truth, so the idea that the Disciples, who governed the Church, were somehow still confused on the return of Christ some 40 years later cannot be defended. They were specifically chosen to lead the Church into truth, not speculation or falsehood. If they taught that Christ's Coming was "soon" and would happen within the 1st Century it was because the Holy Spirit told them it would, not because they were "hoping" it would.

    Knowing the "generation" of Christ's return is not the same as knowing the "day or hour". The Disciples were told it would happen within their generation, but they were not told the day or the hour.

    In Christ,


  7. The real problem here is that you don't know, or you don't understand what God said to his people in the Old Testament about failed prophecy. Most Christians today don't know the Old Testament.

    Notice how the Jews were to judge a false prophet by his own words. Deuteronomy 18:18-22 NKJV I will raise up from them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

    And if you say in your heart, (How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?)-When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, (if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken) the prophet has spoken it presumptuously you shall not be afraid of him.

    This is not (our - the preterist opinion). This is inspired writ, i.e., God's opinion. If the thing the prophet speaks in God's name does NOT come to pass or happen that prophet is a false prophet and has not spoken for God. (Deut. 18:22)

    Futurist are saying Jesus and his inspired disciples did not know what they were talking about which makes them false prophets according to Deut. We say they did know what they were talking about and it happened in 70 A.D just as Jesus and his disciples had said.
  8. IB

    IB Idaho Bassman

    RE: How I came to embrace Preterism.

    This thread started out to be a place where preterist came and shared "their story" of how they came to embrace Preterrsm. I have really enjoyed reading these stories. So I would like to get back to that and add my 2 cents.

    First off, quoted by Par70:
    This may not be true in my case. I have never been a futurist (or any of the others for that matter). As far as I can remember I have always held the view of fulfilled eschatology. I became a Christian (raised to newness of life) on December 22, 1985 around mid-day. The church taught that when you are born into Christ you enter into the Kingdom of God. Simple logic, if you can enter the Kingdom, then it must exist! And it does, here and now, for the Church is the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God. So in order for the Kingdom to be here and now then the eschalogical writtings must be fulfilled.

    Anyway, in 1987 there was a church planting in Flagstaff AZ, so I decided to go up and help. I became room mates with Tim James. For those of you who do not know TJ, he is the author of the book "The Messiah's Return." Great book, please read it, you can get a free copy sent to you at the following link: http://www.preterist.org/freeoffer.htm
    So here I am room mates with a full preterist, I guess I am just lucky. TJ always said that the best way to understand the bible is to have proper hermeneutics, and let scripture interpret scripture. So I read a book on hermeneutics, which TJ gave me, and decided to interpret the Bible from a first century point of view. That changed everything, and I started to understand clearly the things I already believed. Yes at this point in my life some of the things I believed was by faith, however the preterist view made them a reality. Studing the bible with TJ was fulfilling for me, to see how everything fit together. But my time living with TJ only lasted about 6 months, I had to return to Phoenix, however I had enough 'meat' to carry me up to this point.

    Now I would like to give a challenge to those considering the preterist point of view. Don't go into your study trying to disprove preterism, do just the opposite. Go to the Bible and try to prove this point of view, if you can't prove it then it is not true, however if you can prove it, then accept it. This method of study works for all the hard to understand teachings that man has come up with.

    Thanks for listening, if there are some more "stories" I would like to read them. One last thing, I haven't heard much from GW lately, would like to hear his story.

    See Ya, Idaho Bassman
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    Thanks IB, for correcting my understanding.

    Clearly I should have prefaced my comment with the term "Generally" All preterists used to be futurist, for that is "generally" true. As with all generalizations, there certainly exist exceptions.

    I will edit my post to reflect this correction.

  10. davo

    davo Member

    Thanks IB for sharing -great story :) . And thanks for getting us "back on track" -who else wants to share their Journy into the "FULL MESSAGE" :wave:

    Acts 5:20 "Go, stand in the temple courts," he said, "and tell the people the full message of this new life."

  11. jenlu

    jenlu Member


    the disciple's understood little before the crucifixtion for a reason...but it is implied that Jesus explained the scripture's concerning himself to his disciple's after His ressurrection...AT LEAST two of them heard about them on the road after His ressurrection, and I'm sure they didn't keep it for themselves...and I also believe Jesus explained it very concisely to others as well...so basing, what you perceive to be a lack of credibility to the writers of the New Testament is wrong...also that whole diatribe means very little when you consider the Bible to be the inherent Word of God...

    Read more of Peter...he did consider soon to mean right then...
  12. Great story IB Thanks for getting us back on track. Your story reminds me of a true fact that I was told about the Bible long ago that goes like this. If you placed a man on an inland all alone and gave him a Bible he would be a preterist. :idea:
  13. Autumn

    Autumn Member

    I have been spending time reading the Old Testament, and actually, this is pretty funny to me, I just read that verse today.
    No where do the disciples say that it happens in 70 A.D. I realize that when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples He gave them understanding about the things they had once not understood. I do not get the impression that when the apostles wrote that Jesus is coming "soon" they meant in 70 A.D. I believe that they did not know when, but they wanted us to be ready. To be living our lives through the Holy Spirit. I have read both 1 and 2 Peter,thoroughly, many times. I still have faith that He will come. Will I just simply sit idle waiting for His return? Absolutely NOT! For that is not what Jesus or the apostles call us to do. We are to be living according to His will, servants, ready for the Master's return. The apostles point to an end when Christ returns, not a continuation. Like in 2 Peter 3:9, Christ will not come immediately because He wants all to be saved. If when He came people would still have a chance, then I do not believe they would have written such.
    Perhaps the earth will not be completely destroyed, but more like Noah's flood, where the wicked were destroyed, except with fire. Whatever the case may be, this is where I stand. I will live my life, and guide my children, to give up our own will, for that of our Lord's, letting Him live through us. If I have faith that "generations" in Luke 24:32 (I realize there are a number of verses you use to suggest Preterism) did not mean that He would come in 70 A.D., then I have faith. If you do not have faith that that can be so, then so be it. I am just happy that you are praising Christ, and are saved. We are a church, all of us, despite our different views on prophecy. :)

  14. Read Det. 18 again and you will see what we mean. All the thing had to be fulfilled in the disciples time frame (Romans 13:11-12).
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    That was a great post!
    I wish to thank you for your tone and tenor, very respectful. I hope I learn from your example.
    We are truly part of the same body of Christ.

    I wanted to provide a few verses that show that even after Jesus comes/came, sinners would exist and have the opportunity for salvation:

    Ps. 110:4: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

    Since Christ's function is to be a Priest on behalf of sinners "forever," this tells us that sinners will exist on earth "forever" to enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ. The moment sinners cease to dwell on earth, Christ's priestly function ceases.

    Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..." (Rev. 14:6).

    Since the Gospel, which sole purpose is to be preached to sinners that dwell on the earth, is "everlasting," this means that sinners will have to be born on earth "everlastingly" to enjoy the blessings of the Gospel.

    As soon as sinners cease to dwell on the earth, the "everlasing" Gospel ceases to have a purpose.

    Conversely to the idea that some day there will be no sinners on earth, the Bible teaches us that The eternal Gospel has no "use by" or "expiration" date, for it is everlasting.

    In Rev. 22:2, on "the new earth," we see the "Tree of life" that yields fruit every month, the "leaves" of which are "for the healing of the nations" (Rev. 22:2). This teaches us that in the new earth, "the nations" are in need of continual healing.

    Also in Revelation 21-22, we see, on the "new earth", after the Judgement, murderers, adulterers, liars, and all types of sinners, and those inside the city's gates are calling out to them who thirst to enter in and drink freely of the water of life.

    Isaiah 65:17-21 also plainly states that on the "new earth", there will still be birth, ageing, death and sinners.

    Autumn, who was Peter was writing to? You, me?
    No, He was writing to first century Jews to warn them about what he knew was "at hand". The "last days" of operational biblical Judiasm, and the warning was indeed urgent to "them" because if they didn't heed Christs warning to turn away from Judiasm, they would be destroyed with the City they thought would protect them, and at that point it would be too late for "them" be saved.

    One of the most important principles in biblical interpratation is "audience relevance".
    Only when we can discover what any given passage meant to the people who first received it, can we then properly apply it to our lives.

    There is no "urgent warning" in scripture that was 'not' an urgent warning to the 1st century people about what was indeed "about to happen" to them.

    There can be only one "last days" generation, and Jesus and the apostles all believed and taught that they were that generation.

    We either can trust that they were right, or our faith is in serious trouble.

    Be well in Christ,
  16. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    Good post P70. "Audience relevance" is crucial in understanding the scriptures, and was like a light bulb turning on in my mind when I first applied it.

    Most definitely, the "urgent warning" was for the 1st Century beleivers. If a Christian believes that every warning was written to every generation of believers throughout time then the Body of Christ would be in chaos. Take 1Cor. 7 for example...

    "Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.(v.25-26)[/b]"

    ".... Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. (v.27)"

    "But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not (v.29-30)".

    Think about this carefully; if Paul's admonintion to virgins was to all unmarried Christians for the last 2000 years, then every Christian virgin should remain unmarried - period (unless you can't control yourself, which is another issue entirely {v.9}).

    Has the "present distress" been going on for the last 2000 years? In the 1st Century, Paul declared that the "time was short", and because of this all married people were to live as though they had no spouse (v.29). So do futurists today apply this passage to their lives, if in fact the time has been short for the past 2000 years? Do you live as though you have no spouse?

    You cannot apply the "urgent warning, time is short" passages to your generation without ALSO applying the instructions that come with them. To do otherwise is to believe and to live in self-contradiction.

    In Christ,

  17. Autumn

    Autumn Member

    Hello, Acts 6:5. :wave:

    As far as "audience relevance", I see this to a point, but if scriptures are written through the Holy Spirit, then they are the Word of God. And if the Scriptures are the Word of God, they are living. To me, this means that when "you" is written, God knew that we (today) would be reading it, and it does apply to us.

    Life is short. We are all to live in readiness for when the Lord returns, living our lives completely to the will of God. There are cities, people all around the world that need to know the Gospel. There are things that God wants us to do, big and small, but the Lord is to be our focus.

    This is where Paul comes in speaking of not marrying. When we marry, we try and please our spouse, and the Lord is not the only one we wish to please. If I were stronger in that area, I believe that I would not marry, but as you see with some of the Catholic priests who fall into sexual temptation, not everyone is cut out for it. In fact, I don't think many people are.
  18. Autumn

    Autumn Member


    I will read the passage again if you wish.

    God bless you, and through each and every year may God continue to mold you.

  19. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    Hi Autumn,
    Mind if I test that assertion to see just how far you are willing to take it?

    For example:
    Php 2:19
    But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

    Autumn, are you expecting Timothy's arrival soon?

    If not, why not? The Living word of God says Jesus is sending Timothy to "you" shortly dosen't it? You did say you believed that when "you" is used in scripture, it applies to you today right?
  20. Autumn

    Autumn Member

    How did I know that was going to come back at me? No, ofcourse, I don't believe that. I do however believe that when Jesus was talking to His disciples about His second coming, it applies to us. I also believe that the Scriptures apply to us as well. We can take the letters that Paul, James, Peter, etc. wrote to the churches and apply them to our lives. If they were simply written to the audience at that time, then they really don't apply to my life at all. I believe they were written in Spirit, and do apply. Not the things about Paul comming to visit, or other such things, but the actual message and truth. They say to live as though you are ready for your Master's return, and not to let Him find you naked...or not ready. And as I said before they spoke of an end...not a continuation of things.

    2 Peter 3
    10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
    11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
    12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

    Now I have a few questions for you, Parousia70. I looked over the passages that you posted.

    Psalm 110:4 (Priest forever)
    Christ is the Eternal sacrifice, standing in for us so that we can fellowship with God. If it were not for Him we would not be in the presence of God; therefore, He eternally stands in our place.

    Revelation 14:6
    The Gospel is eternal. This is an everlasting covenant, the Good News will continue to be good forever. Christ made the sacrifice for all time, we no longer need to make them and we can worship freely. This is eternal.
    -Judgement will still come.

    Isaiah 65:17-25
    17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
    18 "But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness.
    19 "I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
    20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.
    21 "They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
    22 "They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
    23 "They will not labor in vain; Or bear children for calamity;For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,And their descendants with them.
    24 "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.
    25 "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

    Don't babies still die only a couple days old? Do all men live out their days? I know that my aunt, who loves the Lord, gave birth to a still born baby at 7mo.. I also know my grandfather, who loved the Lord, died at 62. If we are now in the "new heaven and earth", this shouldn't be.
    I believe He speaks of satisfaction and eternal pleasures. Some take these verses to be when Christ reigns on earth. Whatever the case may be, I think it points to completeness, being with God, and Him rejoicing in us. Saying "sinners" or those without this fellowship, will be lacking in fullness of life.

    When God speaks in Spirit, the meaning may not make sense humanly speaking. Let me give you for example the prophecies in Matthew. The "virgin" that would give birth to Immanuel, in Isaiah, many believe to actually be the prophetess that bore Isaiah a son. Not Mary because the word "virgin" isn't the actual word, but young woman. Then there is the prophecy he quotes about Rachel weeping for her children because they are no more. When reading in Isaiah, you find it points more to the Israelites being spread about the earth in exile. Prophecy seems to speak on many different levels and above "human" wisdom.
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