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Featured How Hard Determinism turns God into the devil and Grace into a myth.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Grip Docility, Jul 17, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Then I don’t see what we are discussing.

    I’ll bow out now.
     
  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Did He really...? Cause I don't think He did... What would He say about Himself in this regard...? I think He realized He did not, and I think His life and His ways and some of the stuff He said, or had to say proves it, or most definitely reflects that...

    "Why do you call me good"...? "I have come to do the will of my Father and my Father's will"... "I do not act of my own will or accord"... "I have come to fulfill the scriptures... and all that my (our) Father in Heaven has purposed, or laid out for me, or set before me"...ect, ect, ect, so on and so forth...

    Just look at it all, you really think He thought he had his own will, or (thought) that any of us did either...? Compared to the Father in Heaven now, mind you...?

    "You are of your Father the Devil, and you are doing his will"... "that one was a murderer and a man-slayer from the beginning"... "Why am I even speaking to you at all"...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  3. grafted branch

    grafted branch New Member

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    Thanks for that response, I missed the LBF meaning limited atonement but free will until you answered my post.

    You seem to be well versed in free will and I would like to ask you another question that is not directly related to the original post if you don’t mind.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    There are some verses such as 2 Corinthians 4:4 that seem to indicate that Satan does have an effect on the minds of some people. I think you place the millennial reign in the future and Satan as currently being loosed. If people currently have free will but in a future millennium nobody’s mind is blinded and there is no sin, then does Satan have to be loosed in order for people to be able to have a choice between sinning or not? It seems many premils believe in free will and many amils believe in election. To me it would seem that Satan would have to be bound in order for people to have an unaffected mind to make a free will choice. I’m still looking at the various aspects of free will and election, and I’m really just looking for an opinion or any insight you might have on whether Satan must be loose or bound in order for someone to have a free will choice.
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    It was never really even possible at all for Him to not do His Father's will... nor each one of us either... Never not possible for each one of us to not do each one of our Father/father's will/wills, which is all part of the greatest Father's will... Or Jesus Father's will...

    There is no escaping it, it's fate, it's all fate... And the Father's will... From the beginning ect...

    And Jesus knew this better than anyone...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  5. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    When God almighty doesn’t have “free will” in the minds of men, perhaps a measure of consideration is due?

    Jesus walked among us the fullness of the God Head. In Him all things move and ... well Acts of the Apostles 17:23-32.....

    All Love to you in Jesus Christ
     
  6. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    I definitely believe Satan is currently loosed. I don’t believe he has been bound yet, as he is bound to the earth, still. When he is literally bound for the millennial reign, it will be a different matter.

    I understand your premise and it is an unexpected approach to this topic that I appreciate. :)
     
  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    Understood. I appreciate all of your input and challenge.
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    He was still the "Son of God", and I can't count the number or references and comments He made about His Father or Father God...

    And I also can't even count even one instance, no not even one, where Jesus Himself claimed to be any more than that either...

    God Bless!
     
  9. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    He was, is and always has been the Son Of God.

    God the Son was born of mankind, but has always been God the Son. Without getting into complexity, the Son is Of the indivisible substance of the Trinity and though He was knit to Humanity as The Son Of Man and God... He was fully God and fully man.

    He had His own will and the very Person of the Trinity, God the Son, most definitely had a Will Of His own, because He differentiated His from the Father’s by specifying that He chose to do His Father’s Will.

    Philippians 2 remains the right answer, IMO

    All Love in Jesus Christ to you.
     
  10. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    You refer to Philippians 2 and yet reject all He Himself had to say about Himself... Sad...

    He never could have done His own will as the number one "Son of God" second member of the trinune Godhead, that possibility never even existed...

    He came to do the will of His Father and He never could have ever chose not to do that ever, or ever done otherwise, ever, that possibility does not exist and never existed, ever...

    He Himself also said that His Father was greater than He was, yet He was "one" with His/The Father, was present in the beginning, was a co-creator in creating all things, were made through Him and by Him, all that, the only image or likeness we will ever see of the Father manifested, ever, but still the Son of God and not as great as His Father, He Himself said so...

    I'm sorry Grip, but I have given you a lot, A LOT, and what is being displayed by you now is just plain pure stubborness and rebelliousness at this point, and it is against the Father God Himself...

    Insisting on your own will, fighting for your own will, ect...

    I got to go for now, be back later...

    God Bless!
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    I’m not okay with God’s Will being intertwined with the evil of Creations will. :). Big difference.
     
  12. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    And as Yoda might say: "And that is why you reject it"...

    (Your first four words)...

    Why all of you, like you, reject it...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    And there is not two separate wills either.

    After all what do you mean by "the evil of creations will"...? When there is no such thing apart from God's will...?

    Unless you have two equal competing God's...? On an equal level with one another, ect...

    Or are suggesting that God's will is not responsible for creations will, or that God's will did not create creation, or "creations will", or whatever...?

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  14. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    Isaiah 55:8
     
  15. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When I deny freewill, I deny the kind of will that God alone has. I do not deny freewill, if it means responsible choice --real choice, with real, even eternal, consequences.

    The fact the Bible has many specific references to God's sovereignty, and control over all things, and uses the very word, "predestine", and the like in the context of his work concerning his creation, but does not mention free will, (except once referring to an offering that is voluntary --not required), I think demonstrates much about the subject.

    This matter is closely related to another that I have remarked on a few times on this forum --that we don't know what we are talking about, and give real meaning to our silly concepts and words. Again, God is the default (I say for lack of a better way to put it.) He is the real, He is the beginning that exists before whatever he caused. To jump a few logical steps, instinctively we should see from that alone that we cannot describe him well, nor make complete determinations as to what he does and does not do, unless his word says so. But even when we do know what his word says, we are unable to fully understand it.
     
  16. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    I appreciate your conclusion. Indeed, we don’t understand, this side of Creation and it will take an eternity to fully understand.

    I grasp that words get theologically loaded. It is interesting that the word free will exists as a “voluntary offering”. :) I try not to hang my theological hat on one verse, so hammering away at that one isn’t my desire, though it indeed freely remains there.

    The fact that you acknowledge God has Free Will is deeply appreciated.

    All Love to you in Jesus Christ.
     
  17. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    Care to expand on or clarify that for us?
     
  18. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nicely said. Thank you, and I love you in Christ, my brother.
     
  19. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I thought I was pretty clear...?

    Whatever God/god is your Father/father, it is not possible for you not to be doing their will, ever... We can only change our Father/father's or our fathers or our sonship(s), and only if the "Highest Father" wills it and has willed it from the very beginning... And all other "wills" are wrapped up in or are fully encompassed in that Ones will, and so it is impossible, quite literally impossible, ever, to ever go against or not do that Ones will, ever, forever...

    God Bless!
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    God of the OT could see a lot, A LOT, and knew/knows a great great deal of a lot, and very, very many things, and has a lot of foresight, a lot... but "did not have foresight past or beyond choices He did not know, or that had not been decided for sure yet or at that time"...

    Christ was the end of all of that though, and He fully knows all now... They all do now, ect...

    God Bless!
     
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