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Featured How Hard Determinism turns God into the devil and Grace into a myth.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Grip Docility, Jul 17, 2019.

  1. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Would God providentially Control Bob to Murder an innocent person? :)

    Wording shift granted. :)
     
  2. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    You did so well and I appreciate your stance on the matter.

    You have distinguished yourself from what is known as “Hard Determinism” and that sets well with my soul.
     
  3. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    What specifically draws a man to Christ?
     
  4. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Hard Determinists :)

    You asked the perfect question!
     
  5. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    @Hammster cracked the OP by asking the correct question and all discussion has been excellent!

    There has been an OP title change and an additional word added to the write up.

    Gratitude for the participation that has occurred and is to come to each of you.
     
  6. ilovejcsog

    ilovejcsog I am a Christian mutt. You can call me Rox

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    The cart before the horse? I have always believed that Jesus' death on the cross and our salvation was planned from the beginning so......
     
  7. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I guess I'm wondering, considering all the things you say about it, what exactly you mean by Hard Determinism? Who believes what you seem to describe? I believe God "ordains all things whatsoever shall come to pass." Does that make me a Hard Determinist? Because if it does, you have misrepresented what I believe. Not only have you put up a strawman, but you are flailing him with noodles.

    But there is a huge thing most who argue this sort of matter neglect --that God is the default position. ALL depends on him, and without him there is nothing at all. You can take that wherever logic takes you, but seeing him as timeless helps me see that this whole matter has already been spoken into existence and is completed. Our will is only a poor player in this story, and our intelligence and understanding even poorer.

    If we wish to argue the matter from our viewpoint, giving value to our terminology, we are inevitably led to claim that it was mere chance that one person chooses better than another, and that God must give way before randomness. Yet logic shows there is no such thing as mere chance or true randomness; any honest logical scientist or philosopher will tell you there are no uncaused effects. If the beat of the butterfly wing was the final link to cause the typhoon on the other side of the planet, that doesn't mean the typhoon victim has the butterfly to blame. But God is easily that subtle in the motion of EVERY particle of matter and energy, and yet everything that happens would not happen the way it does without him. He absolutely DOES have control over everything that happens, but it is not on any level we can use to blame him with, nor does it relinquish us from our responsibility.

    Last, I have to take exception to your use of "God's will". The Reformed theologian usually holds to the idea of "two wills" --one being the command, and the other being his eternal purposes. If that can rightly be claimed, they are considerably different from each other, and the Bible uses the term both ways, and no other way that I can remember. But your post seems to slough from one into the other. I find it hard to follow that sort of logic.
     
  8. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    I second the notion.
    Exactly what is so called hard determinism and who champions it?

    Surely you can supply a link where a "hard determinist" presents his thoughts in a way that amounts to mind control and such.

    Other than my first post to Hammster that is (POST #64) - not that I'd call myself a hard determinist across the board by any stretch of the imagination.

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  9. JM

    JM pre·des·ti·nar·i·an Supporter

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    <Staff Edit>

    But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen. 50:20

    Everything that happens in this world happens for a reason. Joseph explains that the actions his brothers had against him were evil...BUT, God's purpose was for good. Spend some time thinking these things through.

    Yours in the Lord,

    jm
     
  10. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    That depends on what you mean by the term.

    If you mean did God author Bob's sin or coerce Bob in some way to commit that sin or in some way do violence to Bob's will - the answer is absolutely not.

    If you mean did God predestine Bob's sin to take place and act in the innumerable ways God acted that created and sustained the paradigm wherein Bob would commit his sin by his own free will as God always knew he would if God Himself acted in those innumerable ways - without shadow of doubt.
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    There’s a wise adage that says people rarely remember what you say, but they never forget how you make them feel. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  12. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I’m attempting to avoid using the theological term for the sake of respecting those that are of the orientation. Search Hyper Calvinism
    and you will find all you are inquiring about.

    Most Calvinism is not of that orientation, but some flavors are.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  13. Thir7ySev3n

    Thir7ySev3n Psalm 139

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    Calvinism and closely associated doctrines of determinism can not be true if verses like these ones are true:

    "They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." (Jeremiah 32:35)

    "Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11)

    If God is being true in these instances, then nothing resembling determinism in essence can be true.

    If God providentially ordains all things (in the way indicated in Acts 17:26-27, so that we may seek God and find Him), then God can ordain that our free choices will so align in His omniscience that even things against His will have a paradoxical but non-contradictory outcome of ultimately accomplishing His will.

    If God effectually ordains all things, then every instance of God calling us to repentance and gripping a wicked person to proclaim His desire for their turning and living is a pretension. It is like a man who enter into an adoption facility and firmly holds a weak and disabled child away from him and says "turn and come to me and I will become your father." When the child rightly responds, "I can't, you're too strong and won't let me turn!" the man continues to angrily shake the child he firmly prevents from turning, insisting he desires to bring him into the family but won't do it if he is stubborn and obstinate. Finally, he rises angrily and rejects the child, releasing his arms only to have him look upon his angry resentment at what he himself precluded. The calvinistic type might respond that God is simply exempting saving grace from justly condemned individuals since the intentions of their hearts are still evil, unlike the "poor" example provided (since it would be claimed God doesn't force them to do evil), yet if a person is created in a condition where they are totally depraved from birth and unable to respond, this is just the loftier cosmic version of that adoptive father where they are just as guilty of having sinful desires as they are as having blue eyes or brown hair. It is how they were born, and they too can't change those facts, even if they disguise it with hair dye and coloured contacts.

    If someone were locked in darkness and unable to see, and no switch or light that it could even activate was provided, then effectively you are guilty of the darkness that can never be undone by your own decree of the design of the room in which you have imprisoned the person. If the room was a sinner's nature, and the light was righteous desires, and God created them in a room of wickedness with no light that could stimulate righteous desires, then God has effectively made them evil and then rejected the products of His own mind.

    Fortunately, we don't have to bear the title's of men's names and associate dogmatically with doctrines associated to those name's (1 Corinthians 1:11-15). We can just let the Bible say what it says, accept the whole counsel of God, and seek to understand and reconcile in our minds these paradoxes of doctrine rather than make them logically contradictory, thus resulting in Scripture being used to fight Scripture. Anyone who reads the Scripture in entirety is going to be indubitably confronted with several truths:

    1. Some things are against God's will and actually happen (e.g. Jeremiah 32:35, Ezekiel 33:11).
    2. God is in control, and nothing happens outside of that control.
    3. God wills that all will be saved and delights in the death of no one, including the wicked.
    4. God knows that not all will repent, and delights in destroying the wicked (Deuteronomy 28:63).

    If you say either of these alone is true, you deny the revelation of the other, all the entailed Scripture. If you accept both as true, they will present paradoxes that can be reconciled through faithful consideration, but not contradictions. Yet, for both to be true, man must be have a free will capable of freely and actually responding to or rejecting God's voice by the power of the Gospel and His Holy Spirit, and God must be in absolute control without being the source of all He controls (or else it did come into and from His mind; I'll take God's Word and any other piece of God's Word with it, yet will it not be allowed to contradict but to be wholly accepted then understood).
     
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I think it is very sad brother that you think you can judge God, the all-knowing God, evil, just for knowing everything, and doing it anyway, ect...

    Do you not trust Him, or trust that His overall plans are "very good"...

    Your judgement of God is a man's judgement, based on a mere man's way of thinking and knowledge and knowing, and it is very, very wrong...

    I will be praying for you that He will forgive you, but your probably gonna have to change a few things, like this way of thinking, and your judging Him, ect, also...

    What was his crime, giving us and all of this "life", and your ignoring His future plans for us that is His reason for doing, making, causing it all in the first place also...

    He does not directly cause it all, but He did cause it all from the very beginning, and knew it all, ect, and did or made it all the way it is anyway, because of His very good plans though, yet you do not trust that, sad brother, and I think you should seriously re-think judging God for it, cause it is not right at all...

    A mere man who thinks He is the judge of the all-knowing God, very dangerous and risky to you soul brother, hopefully he forgives you...

    God Bless!
     
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Because God and God's ways does fit into my ways of thinking He is evil or the Devil, OK, got it...

    That's blasphemy... And of the highest or greatest kind also...

    I don't think you know what all-knowing from the beginning is, or means brother...

    You should seriously re-think you thinking about Him...

    God Bless!
     
  16. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    He saw it from the very beginning and did it anyway...

    He saw that Suzie was gonna get raped, so and so was going to get molested, that so and so and such and such was going to have a very hard life here, that there was going to a lot of "evil", from before His ever making or causing it from the very beginning, in an instant of time, from before He ever made it or caused it from the beginning, He saw it "all" and did it anyway, but, it was also because He saw the ends or endings of all and each person as well, and it was because of that, that He did it all anyway... Because those plans are so very good, that they would trump all that bad that would happen, or have to happen first, in the end, ect...

    Now, your going to judge Him for that...? Very dangerous ground to stand on brother...

    You need to repent... And I wouldn't wait too long on that either if I were you...

    And all of you who would dare to think that way need to as well...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    IOW's Your going to accuse the Creator and maker of everything and all, of great, great wrong or very wrong wrongdoing, even being evil, or the Devil, just for Creating and/or making...?

    You should seriously re-think that, and do it now, and don't wait, and repent, now... Or I fear for you (all) greatly...

    Like Job said, shall we only accept what is good from God and not also the bad as well...? (Which He turns all into good and very good in the end anyway)...?

    God Bless!
     
  18. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I just posted this in the "what might have been God's first thought" thread...

    Seeing it all from before even making it, maybe His first thought was "Should I really do this...?"

    God Bless!

    It was a "calculated" decision, a weighing of matters, and for the much more better and greater good that would come of it all, even each single individual one, in the end, He did all anyway... Decided to, ect... Anyway, regardless, ect...

    Judge Him evil and wrong and call Him the Devil for that if you want or fell you must, and if you dare, but I for one will not...

    God Bless!
     
  19. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    IMO

    Without acknowledging the passages that proof creation has been endowed with a will that can choose apart from the Creator’s desires, by the Creator... the acts of wickedness of all Creation fall slap on God’s shoulders as factually God’s will.

    By acknowledging LBF as a biblical fact, we see it is Creation that is responsible for wickedness existing and not God.

    To say God knows all and thus God is guilty of all Evil existing is to ignore the very Revelation of God in Jesus Christ.

    It is mercy that allows all of Creation to exist.

    It is Grace that God provides to all that allows this world to still be turning.

    It is Love that paid the price for all humanities every crime against itself, past, present and future.

    It is Love that desires sincerity over moral perfection.

    It is God that is humble enough to exalt Love and Mercy over Slavery and Condemnation.

    To say God fashioned all of Creation like a writer and filled in all the personal details of every sentient beings life, simply because God is Infinitely Omniscient, is to ignore that just because God knows all things that are and are not... it doesn’t mean God Dictated it to be so.

    All Love in Jesus Christ to you, brother in Him.
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    To say that Creation has a will that act against God's will, is to say that God is not all-knowing... Nor all powerful, or whatever (either)...

    And I need to know who your talking about, God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit...

    There are so many contradictions to what your saying and what you believe that I do not know where to begin, and your making it much more complicated than it actually is or needs to be also...

    Your very confused IOW's...

    And that comes from your own personal need and judgement to believe that if God is responsible for, and knew about all the evil that would happen, then He is evil... and that is just so very wrong, I don't even know where to begin with that also... You need to repent Grip...

    But ignore what I said, I don't really care, you choose to be blind because you can't believe God is responsible for evil, without Him being evil... and that is not a belief I share, so...

    And that is due to a personal problem residing in you...

    You wrestling with and against the truth when you really don't have to...

    It's just hard for you to accept, but that is no one's fault but your own Grip...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
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