How Hard Determinism turns God into the devil and Grace into a myth.

Grip Docility

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Right to it... Hard Determinism unapologetically makes all of Creation specifically performing God’s will.

The Devil is merely an extension of God’s will, within Hard Determinism, existing and torturing to ultimately bring Glory to God, within Hard Determinism.

Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR. If all is God’s will, then there is no need for Grace, as even the Wicked are performing God’s will, which means they are not in rebellion of God and thusly without the need for grace.

If I hold a gun to Bob’s head and force him to kill someone innocent, Bob still has a choice to be shot or kill the innocent someone.

If I were to mind control Bob to shoot someone innocent, Bob is guiltless and the guilt of the crime rests on my head.

To say... “but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime”, is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Hard Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!
 
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com7fy8

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Right to it... Determinism unapologetically makes all of Creation specifically performing God’s will.
For example, how God used Joseph and his horrible situation to save many people's lives >

Genesis 37-50
 
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Hammster

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Right to it... Determinism unapologetically makes all of Creation specifically performing God’s will.

The Devil is merely an extension of God’s will, within Determinism, existing and torturing to ultimately bring Glory to God, within Determinism.

Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR. If all is God’s will, then there is no need for Grace, as even the Wicked are performing God’s will, which means they are not in rebellion of God and thusly without the need for grace.

If I hold a gun to Bob’s head and force him to kill someone innocent, Bob still has a choice to be shot or kill.

If I were to mind control Bob to shoot someone innocent, Bob is guiltless and the guilt of the crime rests on my head.

To say... but if God mind controlled Bob to kill someone innocent, God is guiltless of the crime is to make God duplicitous by God’s own standards that He meticulously lays out in all of scripture. This is to say that Determinism accepts the idea that God is Double Minded!
I don’t know of any orthodox teaching that holds to a view that God mind controls people to do things. Can you give us an example of one that does?
 
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Grip Docility

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For example, how God used Joseph and his horrible situation to save many people's lives >

Genesis 37-50

Indeed... God can take bad situations that arise from creations rebellion and bring about good through Love based, relational intercession.

The burden of evil occurring is on Creation’s Rebellion, while God carries the burden of defeating Evil and truth be told, He is already Spiritually Victorious... yet we await the Physical, Global victory... when Evil will be wiped out and only Good will remain. :)
 
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Grip Docility

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I don’t know of any orthodox teaching that holds to a view that God mind controls people to do things. Can you give us an example of one that does?

Does anything happen outside of God’s will, within All of Creation?
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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The Devil is merely an extension of God’s will, within Determinism....
In the same way that your own post serves a purpose within determinism, to separate the wheat from the chaff. The fact that it is God's will to separate wheat from chaff is not evidence that God wants wheat just as much as he wants chaff. He doesn't want it. That's why he has a process for encouraging one to go a different way from the other.

The wind of a wayward post blows aside all who would heed it. Have a nice day.
 
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Grip Docility

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In the same way that your own post serves a purpose within determinism, to separate the wheat from the chaff. The fact that it is God's will to separate wheat from chaff is not evidence that God wants wheat just as much as he wants chaff. He doesn't want it. That's why he has a process for encouraging one to go a different way from the other.

The wind of a wayward post blows aside all who would heed it. Have a nice day.

In no way do I desire to separate anything. This is a counter OP to a specific OP that is under discussion. The wording of this OP has deep support.

Does anything happen within all of Creation that is outside of God’s will?
 
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SPF

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I like what Jonathan Edwards said concerning free will. He said that at any given time we always act according to our greatest inclination. I have yet to find an exception to this statement.

For example, if I was going for a jog in my neighborhood, and was listening to music on my iphone, my greatest inclination as I jog by a stranger would not be to give them my phone. However, if that stranger stepped in front of me, pulled out a gun, and said that I needed to give him my phone or else he would shoot me - then I can tell you that my greatest inclination at that moment would be to give that stranger my phone.

What our greatest inclination is at any given time is always going to be influenced by a large number of things, both conscious and subconscious. Will I speed up at the yellow light or stop? Will I have that cup of coffee later today at 2:00, or will I take a quick 30 minute nap instead? Will I change my son's diaper before putting him on my shoulders for a ride?

All of my choices are based upon my greatest inclination at that moment.

For humans, we are all born with an inherited sinful nature. We are by nature children of wrath. On our own, we do not seek God. We always act according to our greatest inclination. And before the Holy Spirit moves in us, our greatest inclination will never be to love Christ.

The justice of God would mean that all people would go to hell. That would be just. We are all born with an inherited sinful nature, and we can't earn our way to God's grace (it wouldn't be grace if we could). Thus, people die and receive one of two things - justice, or grace. In both instances, God is holy and has done nothing wrong. Because one person receives grace does not therefore mean that all people should receive grace.
 
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Hammster

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Bring @Dave L onboard and you’ll see one example.

Does anything happen outside of God’s will, within All of Creation?
You didn’t answer my question. Can you show one orthodox system of belief that teaches that God mind-controls us?
 
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Grip Docility

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I like what Jonathan Edwards said concerning free will. He said that at any given time we always act according to our greatest inclination. I have yet to find an exception to this statement.

For example, if I was going for a jog in my neighborhood, and was listening to music on my iphone, my greatest inclination as I jog by a stranger would not be to give them my phone. However, if that stranger stepped in front of me, pulled out a gun, and said that I needed to give him my phone or else he would shoot me - then I can tell you that my greatest inclination at that moment would be to give that stranger my phone.

What our greatest inclination is at any given time is always going to be influenced by a large number of things, both conscious and subconscious. Will I speed up at the yellow light or stop? Will I have that cup of coffee later today at 2:00, or will I take a quick 30 minute nap instead? Will I change my son's diaper before putting him on my shoulders for a ride?

All of my choices are based upon my greatest inclination at that moment.

For humans, we are all born with an inherited sinful nature. We are by nature children of wrath. On our own, we do not seek God. We always act according to our greatest inclination. And before the Holy Spirit moves in us, our greatest inclination will never be to love Christ.

The justice of God would mean that all people would go to hell. That would be just. We are all born with an inherited sinful nature, and we can't earn our way to God's grace (it wouldn't be grace if we could). Thus, people die and receive one of two things - justice, or grace. In both instances, God is holy and has done nothing wrong. Because one person receives grace does not therefore mean that all people should receive grace.

Do some Atheists Love their spouses sincerely?
 
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Grip Docility

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You didn’t answer my question. Can you show one orthodox system of belief that teaches that God mind-controls us?

Certainly...

The Elect, By Reformed Theology can only come to God if God “actuates” a switch from off to on.

The Damned, by Reformed Theology cannot come to God, because God refuses to “actuate” the switch from off to on.

Do you disagree?
 
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com7fy8

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Does anything happen within all of Creation that is outside of God’s will?
God is not willing that any should perish, right? But, even so, there are people who are perishing. And who has been superior to anyone else so this is why that person chose Jesus? So, then, who is really in control of what people choose?

I see, here, that it is not desirable to God that ones perish; so it is not His desirable will.

But there is the reality that there is evil and the people of it. And in God's not so desired will He has turned evil people over to their lusts > Romans 1:18-32.

Now why some awful people have changed to trust in Jesus, while other awful ones have been turned over to Satan's lusts > is an interesting issue. In any case, I do believe God is in control of all this. May be it is like how a man's will is to share with his lady in tender affection, but it is also his will . . . not so desired . . . to wipe himself on the toilet.

I think God is being practical, while we might be so busy with judging Him or trying to protect Him by explaining Him.
 
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Hammster

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Certainly...

The Elect, By Reformed Theology can only come to God if God “actuates” a switch from off to on.

The Damned, by Reformed Theology cannot come to God, because God refuses to “actuate” the switch from off to on.

Do you disagree?
You are trying to avoid defending your OP. Where does Reformed Theology teach that God mind-controls? Don’t put the burden on me. You find a teaching and quote it, and then we will talk.
 
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Grip Docility

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You are trying to avoid defending your OP. Where does Reformed Theology teach that God mind-controls? Don’t put the burden on me. You find a teaching and quote it, and then we will talk.

Does any single atom turn outside of God’s Will, in all of Creation?

Does any single action occur from any human being that is outside of God’s Will?

Does any single angel act outside of God’s will?

Does God determine every event that occurs to happen according to His Will?
 
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Hammster

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Does any single atom turn outside of God’s Will, in all of Creation?

Does any single action occur from any human being that is outside of God’s Will?

Does any single angel act outside of God’s will?

Does God determine every event that occurs to happen according to His Will?
You are still trying to put the burden on me. If you can’t back your OP, it’s okay to admit it. ;)
 
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Grip Docility

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You are still trying to put the burden on me. If you can’t back your OP, it’s okay to admit it. ;)

:) I have asked a question multiple ways, several times and it has returned unanswered.

IMO, that’s an answer ;)

Does it make me the winner of the debate? By no means... but the answer to the question is known and even the discretion of not answering it displays the OP is far from flopped.
 
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Hammster

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:) I have asked a question multiple ways, several times and it has returned unanswered.

IMO, that’s an answer ;)

Does it make me the winner of the debate? By no means... but the answer to the question is known and even the discretion of not answering it displays the OP is far from flopped.
I didn’t start the thread. It’s not incumbent of me to defend anything. My view is irrelevant. You made an argument. You made a definitive statement. If you cannot defend your OP, just say so.
 
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SPF

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Do some Atheists Love their spouses sincerely?
Can you instead respond to the content of my post?

Certainly...

The Elect, By Reformed Theology can only come to God if God “actuates” a switch from off to on.

The Damned, by Reformed Theology cannot come to God, because God refuses to “actuate” the switch from off to on.

Do you disagree?
Which would mean one group receives grace, and the other group receives justice. If we are all born with an inherited sinful nature, then all those that die apart from God's grace receive God's justice.

Do you deny inherited sin? Do you deny that our natural disposition is emnity with God?
:) I have asked a question multiple ways, several times and it has returned unanswered.

IMO, that’s an answer ;)

Does it make me the winner of the debate? By no means... but the answer to the question is known and even the discretion of not answering it displays the OP is far from flopped.
You can smile and wink all you want, but the burden of proof rests upon you to demonstrate that you aren't just arguing a straw-man.
 
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FenderTL5

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Certainly...

The Elect, By Reformed Theology can only come to God if God “actuates” a switch from off to on.

The Damned, by Reformed Theology cannot come to God, because God refuses to “actuate” the switch from off to on.
I would have suggested Unconditional Election, unless, in reformed teaching there are actually conditions and/or Irresistible Grace, again, unless it can be resisted.
Then again, that seems to be the very petals on the TULIP that you have pointed to as well.
 
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Grip Docility

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Can you instead respond to the content of my post?

Which would mean one group receives grace, and the other group receives justice. If we are all born with an inherited sinful nature, then all those that die apart from God's grace receive God's justice.

Do you deny inherited sin? Do you deny that our natural disposition is emnity with God?
You can smile and wink all you want, but the burden of proof rests upon you to demonstrate that you aren't just arguing a straw-man.

Does anything happen in all of Creation that is outside of God’s will?

This is the avoided question.
 
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