How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

[Stephen Douglas]

God gave man freewill at creation. He planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil in the Garden. Adam had the choice to obey God. He was warned of the consequence of disobeying.

Throughout the whole Bible, we have 100's of examples where people choose to obey or disobey. If there was no free will there could not be rebellion and disobedience. If you'd like to have many examples in quick sucession read 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Chronicles back to back.

It seems very convenient to listen to people who teach that there is no free will. The logical consequences of that are blasphemes that I am unwilling to type and dismiss at first thought. God is good! He is Holy!

Justices demands that people who will be punished are actually guilty of their sins. To be guilty they have to have the choice and chance to pursue righteousness. God gives that chance. He prepares the soil, draws people to Him. Unfortunately, those who love evil shrink from the light. It is those who refuse Him. Those who love themselves and the short term pleasures of the flesh more than the chance of freedom and the love of God.

I've been thinking today of the Father's mercy. He managed to save my own dear brother in the months leading to his unexpected death. My brother was an unlikely candidate to give his life to Christ, but God knew and arranged it. My brother saw it as his own choice, but God gave Him the choice and drew him in. He gives the same choice to all, the Bible says we have no excuse.

A bird with a broken wing is free to fly. Those of us who live under the curse imposed upon all of nature after the fall of man are free to make choices. You would think that of the billions of people born since the beginning of time that at least one person would have made righteous choices to continually love God with all of their heart and mind and soul and strength but "there is none good and there is none who seeks after God.....no not one." (Romans 3:10-12)

Why is that? Is it because we were all "dead in trespasses and sins"? Does our condition dictate our choices? If so, is that "free"? No, the bird is free to fly but is incapable of flight because it is broken. This same application is designated to all of humanity. We not only have a dire need for a Savior but also that same desperate need for a new heart that is inclined to yearn for Him which only the Spirit of God can prepare. Why would God perform this miraculous and divine work in some but apparently not in others? For a good reason, for sure, but not one that I am capable of explaining.
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"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Ephesians 2:1-7 (ESV)

What can save us from this desperate and fatal condition?

"BUT GOD"

Not "but Doug" who is rich in wisdom and discernment. Not "but the righteous or the virtuous". "BUT GOD". Here Paul is giving us a snapshot of the process of justification. It is God and Him alone who saves (Jonah 2:9) Man is simply in a state of death and depravity. Paul proceeds with the explanation of this process:

"BUT GOD" being rich in mercy and because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
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If it is me that made the righteous decision to choose Christ while my neighbors did not......do I not have something to boast about? Didn't my salvation have something to do with me? Wasn't it necessary that I participate in this process despite being spiritually and totally "dead"?

We can intellectually side step and even rationalize how Paul's explanation of the initiation of the salvation process does not mean what it says. We can infer and imply a different meaning. But Paul is stating this to the saints in Ephesus right after he praises these same saints for being chosen by God before the foundation of the earth was set. After praise came an explanation. I don't know how this is so difficult to discern. Yet, we will twist and turn and distort to make sure that we end up where we want to be which is a very dangerous thing for the saints to do. The fact that God's righteous will to choose does not set well with our sense of "individual liberty" to choose or not to choose is irrelevant. It is God who holds the universe in His hands, not us. Anyone who has been changed by this divine work of God should be eternally thankful instead of defiant.

Doug

 

[Sam91]

A bird with a broken wing is free to fly. Those of us who live under the curse imposed upon all of nature after the fall of man are free to make choices. You would think that of the billions of people born since the beginning of time that at least one person would have made righteous choices to continually love God with all of their heart and mind and soul and strength but "there is none good and there is none who seeks after God.....no not one." (Romans 3:10-12)

Why is that? Is it because we were all "dead in trespasses and sins"? Does our condition dictate our choices? If so, is that "free"? No, the bird is free to fly but is incapable of flight because it is broken. This same application is designated to all of humanity. We not only have a dire need for a Savior but also that same desperate need for a new heart that is inclined to yearn for Him which only the Spirit of God can prepare. Why would God perform this miraculous and divine work in some but apparently not in others? For a good reason, for sure, but not one that I am capable of explaining.
………………………………………………………………………………….

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Ephesians 2:1-7 (ESV)

What can save us from this desperate and fatal condition?

"BUT GOD"

Not "but Doug" who is rich in wisdom and discernment. Not "but the righteous or the virtuous". "BUT GOD". Here Paul is giving us a snapshot of the process of justification. It is God and Him alone who saves (Jonah 2:9) Man is simply in a state of death and depravity. Paul proceeds with the explanation of this process:

"BUT GOD" being rich in mercy and because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
…………………………………………………………….

If it is me that made the righteous decision to choose Christ while my neighbors did not......do I not have something to boast about? Didn't my salvation have something to do with me? Wasn't it necessary that I participate in this process despite being spiritually and totally "dead"?

We can intellectually side step and even rationalize how Paul's explanation of the initiation of the salvation process does not mean what it says. We can infer and imply a different meaning. But Paul is stating this to the saints in Ephesus right after he praises these same saints for being chosen by God before the foundation of the earth was set. After praise came an explanation. I don't know how this is so difficult to discern. Yet, we will twist and turn and distort to make sure that we end up where we want to be which is a very dangerous thing for the saints to do. The fact that God's righteous will to choose does not set well with our sense of "individual liberty" to choose or not to choose is irrelevant. It is God who holds the universe in His hands, not us. Anyone who has been changed by this divine work of God should be eternally thankful instead of defiant.

Doug

You contradict yourself brother. You can not be defiant if you had no choice but to obey.

Same as without free will, you can't sin. Because you would only do what you were programmed to. To deny that God gave us the choice leads to blasphemy. Be careful.

 

[Stephen Douglas]

You contradict yourself brother. You can not be defiant if you had no choice but to obey.

You seem to be conflating. "Free Will" is something that is offered to all men who are mentally capable of making choices. However, no one is capable of choosing "freely" because of an innate predisposition toward self servitude. When and if we receive the "gift" of the Holy Spirit, we have a spirit of righteousness living within us. Thus, we have capability within us. This is more completely explained in the 8th chapter of Romans.

Doug

 

[Sam91]

Romans 8 does seem to support your presupposition if indoctrinated by men. However, when read in context with the Bible, a more fuller revelation of God Romans 8 goes in line with that.

Don't get me wrong I can't boast of my own relationship with Christ. God is the Potter, I'm only the clay. The Father has arranged circumstances in my life to give me that desire and drew me to Him. I'm only fortunate that I had the need for Him.

The rest of the Bible is not in error when told to chose Him or to choose goodness or life. Do we believe God's revelation or man? I'm open to being mistaken (Proverbs 3:5-6) but that knowledge will have to come through Him.

 

[Stephen Douglas]

Why would you assume that the rest of the Bible is in error because it sets the parameters which all men are incapable of adhering? It isn't possible that God is setting the stage for a Savior to enter the world?

Doug

 

[Sam91]

Why would you assume that the rest of the Bible is in error because it sets the parameters which all men are incapable of adhering? It isn't possible that God is setting the stage for a Savior to enter the world?

Doug

I don't. But others who say that we have no choice in obeying the Lord infer that. It denies words our saviour uttered. It denies what our Father said via prophets. Man's doctrine denies Truth.

What point is there me posting scripture which will only be quibbled against and read through as means to contend? Meanwhile, I know that if I opened the Bible next to me that in most chapters there is an example of a verse that can be used to support free will. I do not deny the Father's sovereignity, grace, mercy, works. I'm in awe of Him and His goodness.

I contend that a Christian ought to forsake free will on being saved. We ought to be a living sacrifice and emulate Jesus 'not my will but Your will.' However, if we don't have that to begin with, how can we do that? How can we live in obedience because we love Him, if there is no thing such as obedience/rebellion.

 

[Stephen Douglas]

I don't. But others who say that we have no choice in obeying the Lord infer that. It denies words our saviour uttered. It denies what our Father said via prophets. Man's doctrine denies Truth.

If I am understanding you correctly, I think I agree with a portion of that. Being enabled by the power of the Spirit, all men are capable of making the righteous choice all of the time: albeit they usually do not. However, even though certain individuals were evidently overcome by the Spirit prior to the advent of Christ, none of them had the indwelling of such a Spirit. Even David prayed that God not take His Holy Spirit from him. Yet, David made choices to sin. Abraham made a choice to sin. Peter made a choice to sin. If people are absolutely "free" to make choices, then why don't they make righteous choices unfailingly? This is my point. It isn't that God doesn't hold them to such standards as "love they neighbor as thy self". It is that God's standards cannot be met and never have been met: certainly not by His chosen. That leaves us hopeless without a divine act of God that was ordained even before the foundation of the earth was set (1 Peter 1:20)

Doug

 

[Sam91]

If I am understanding you correctly, I think I agree with a portion of that. Being enabled by the power of the Spirit, all men are capable of making the righteous choice all of the time: albeit they usually do not. However, even though certain individuals were evidently overcome by the Spirit prior to the advent of Christ, none of them had the indwelling of such a Spirit. Even David prayed that God not take His Holy Spirit from him. Yet, David made choices to sin. Abraham made a choice to sin. Peter made a choice to sin. If people are absolutely "free" to make choices, then why don't they make righteous choices unfailingly? This is my point. It isn't that God doesn't hold them to such standards as "love they neighbor as thy self". It is that God's standards cannot be met and never have been met: certainly not by His chosen. That leaves us hopeless without a divine act of God that was ordained even before the foundation of the earth was set (1 Peter 1:20)

Doug

I don't know. But Paul himself spoke about the battle when he wanted to be obedient but the flesh was still there. Paul also had to remonstrate Peter for acting like a hypocrite. Peter was not infallible after being indwelled with the Spirit. In that moment of weakness Peter was following his own will.

But freewill does not leave us helpless because God is merciful enough to forgive us our sin. He made us a way and that Way is Jesus. He bestowed on us a means to teach, us, lead and guide in His Holy Spirit. God is much bigger than we can imagine and us more feeble than we imagine. We are like grass that withers and fades. Jesus assures us that God cares and provides for the Sparrows who we see as lesser than ourselves.

God has made it easy for us to follow Him. All He expects is for us to humbly trust in Him and He enables the rest. Not only that He blesses us with His peace, joy and self control. (Hmm I seem to be summing up my signature now. God's word says it better.) It is a message of Hope, not despair! (Unless, we love wickedness and our flesh.)

 

[Stephen Douglas]

Romans 8 does seem to support your presupposition if indoctrinated by men. However, when read in context with the Bible, a more fuller revelation of God Romans 8 goes in line with that.

Don't get me wrong I can't boast of my own relationship with Christ. God is the Potter, I'm only the clay. The Father has arranged circumstances in my life to give me that desire and drew me to Him. I'm only fortunate that I had the need for Him.

The rest of the Bible is not in error when told to chose Him or to choose goodness or life. Do we believe God's revelation or man? I'm open to being mistaken (Proverbs 3:5-6) but that knowledge will have to come through Him.

Also, I would be interested to know how a more fuller revelation of God is implemented into the meaning of Romans 8 as it applies to the Spirit??

Doug

 

[Sam91]

Also, I would be interested to know how a more fuller revelation of God is implemented into the meaning of Romans 8 as it applies to the Spirit??

Doug

I just read Romans 8 to try to understand your question. Alas, I do not. Sorry.

 

[Stephen Douglas]

I don't know. But Paul himself spoke about the battle when he wanted to be obedient but the flesh was still there. Paul also had to remonstrate Peter for acting like a hypocrite. Peter was not infallible after being indwelled with the Spirit. In that moment of weakness Peter was following his own will.

But freewill does not leave us helpless because God is merciful enough to forgive us our sin. He made us a way and that Way is Jesus. He bestowed on us a means to teach, us, lead and guide in His Holy Spirit. God is much bigger than we can imagine and us more feeble than we imagine. We are like grass that withers and fades. Jesus assures us that God cares and provides for the Sparrows who we see as lesser than ourselves.

God has made it easy for us to follow Him. All He expects is for us to humbly trust in Him and He enables the rest. Not only that He blesses us with His peace, joy and self control. (Hmm I seem to be summing up my signature now. God's word says it better.) It is a message of Hope, not despair! (Unless, we love wickedness and our flesh.)

I can see that we are talking cross purposes here. Not our fault but a hazzard of discussing such involved subjects on such a venue. In short, we are talking about the total depravity of mankind as described in Romans 7. By the way, I don't think for one minute that Paul was describing a frustrating and helpless condition post conversion, as described in this same chapter. Paul is working up to the triumphant chapter 8 that describes the condition of all who are in Christ as "there is no condemnation of those who walk according to the Spirit".

Sure, Peter was in error after he received the Spirit. That is because God gives us all the freedom to choose or surrender our choices to Him. This isn't done without a struggle from the flesh. Read these chapters carefully and prayerfully and tell me what you think?

Doug

 

[Stephen Douglas]

I just read Romans 8 to try to understand your question. Alas, I do not. Sorry.

My question is based on your submitted assessment that the Bible gives a "fuller" context of the meaning of Romans 8. Did you not say that?

Doug

 

[Sam91]

My question is based on your submitted assessment that the Bible gives a "fuller" context of the meaning of Romans 8. Did you not say that?

Doug

Could you perhaps rephrase your question? (I am maybe a literal reader and struggle when a question may mean more than one thing. I do not know what you are asking me)

 

[Stephen Douglas]

Don't get me wrong I can't boast of my own relationship with Christ. God is the Potter, I'm only the clay. The Father has arranged circumstances in my life to give me that desire and drew me to Him. I'm only fortunate that I had the need for Him.

The rest of the Bible is not in error when told to chose Him or to choose goodness or life. Do we believe God's revelation or man? I'm open to being mistaken (Proverbs 3:5-6) but that knowledge will have to come through Him. >>>snippet of quote

One last thing before I head off to work. Read Romans 9:19-23 pertaining to the potter and the clay and tell me what participation did the clay have in the whole process. What "free will" does the clay have? We cannot say that this scripture is taken out of context because the ENTIRE context is the sovereignty of God.

Doug

 

[Sam91]

Yes, i think i understand now. I mean that Romans 8 it is explaining what happens once we have the Spirit guiding us.

The rest of the Bible speaks of God, what sin is, how God deals with sin, His justice, patience, faithfulness, His sovereignity, His promises, His plan, Jesus, His love, His mercy. It shows us what He classes as righteous.

Romans 8 is sometimes misused and too much emphasis is placed on certain verses without taking into account who God has revealed Himself to be. For example, Romans 8:38-39 is used to back up OSAS. While I believe nothing can separate me from His love (and take great comfort from the verse), my continued disobedience can separate me from Him and that verse doesn't say those who are in knowing rebellion to Him are still in Him.

 

[Stephen Douglas]

Could you perhaps rephrase your question? (I am maybe a literal reader and struggle when a question may mean more than one thing. I do not know what you are asking me)

I understand completely. As said, this can get tedious and confusing.

Romans 8 describes a "freedom" that is not described in Romans 6,7,8. Paul labors to describe the source of such freedom, which is the gift of the indwelling Spirit. Read how he continually makes a drastic contrast between "walking in carnality" and "walking in the Spirit". Notice how Paul says that carnal man has NO ability to subject himself to God's laws. You seem to be refuting this translation of this text as lacking the fuller context of the Bible. I am wondering what you are talking about. This isn't a really big deal but just something that I was curious about.

Thanks for hanging in there!

Doug

 

[Sam91]

I understand completely. As said, this can get tedious and confusing.

Romans 8 describes a "freedom" that is not described in Romans 6,7,8. Paul labors to describe the source of such freedom, which is the gift of the indwelling Spirit. Read how he continually makes a drastic contrast between "walking in carnality" and "walking in the Spirit". Notice how Paul says that carnal man has NO ability to subject himself to God's laws. You seem to be refuting this translation of this text as lacking the fuller context of the Bible. I am wondering what you are talking about. This isn't a really big deal but just something that I was curious about.

Thanks for hanging in there!

Doug

I read Romans last week for my Bible reading plan, will read 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 over while your at work and get back to you hopefully. (I love Romans 12) I also have commitments that I should do.

 

[bling]

One last thing before I head off to work. Read Romans 9:19-23 pertaining to the potter and the clay and tell me what participation did the clay have in the whole process. What "free will" does the clay have? We cannot say that this scripture is taken out of context because the ENTIRE context is the sovereignty of God.

Doug

You ask: “What "free will" does the clay have?”

The clay has none, but after it leaves the shop as a wonderful pot can things change?

Upon leaving the shop with the Potter’s proud mark on the jar (the birth of a baby) , they are great for what they were made to do: common or special use, but after leaving the shop things can happen pleasing the Potter or embarrassing the Potter to the point He does not want His mark on the pot. So, what could happen to the pot (special or common) that would cause the Potter not to want His mark on the pot?

You have to keep in mind the context of who is writing and how Paul uses the analogy other places:

Paul uses these same Greek words: τιμὴν (honorable or special purpose) and ἀτιμίαν (dishonorable or common use) in 2 Tim. 2:20 conveying the same idea of two types of vessels in a rich person’s house, but that would mean the Paul did not use ἀτιμίαν to mean “dishonorable”, since there would not be any dishonorable vessel in a rich man’s house, so Paul’s meaning is a common used vessel.

To understand better, we have to look at:

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Paul said the common (ἀτιμίαν) vessels could themselves “cleanse themselves” (their free will action) and thus become articles of honor special, holy and useful. If the vessel itself can clean up, than it is also possible the vessel can become cracked (damaged) to the point of being useless.

 

[Butch5]

If the gospel specifies doing certain things to be saved, you turn it into law. It is simple an announcement about the traits present in those whom God saves. Faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Not a work of the flesh.

How exactly does requiring certain things turn it into a law? Additionally, if it did, how does that negate the Gospel?

 

[Dave L]

How exactly does requiring certain things turn it into a law? Additionally, if it did, how does that negate the Gospel?

The gospel is good news to those who believe. But if you say the gospel is good news to those who choose to believe, it becomes a Law based on obedience. And grace becomes works. People must then choose to save themselves by meeting conditions = law.