How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[Neogaia777]

Because we don't know all that the Father knows and knew from the beginning (Not even YHWH or Christ did while they were, or are here with us), we have no choice but to proceed as if we (all do) have or had a choice and "choose", whether we do actually have free will or free will choice or not...

And that is the truth of the matter...

Cause he's just not going to tell us everything (the Father's not going to) (not until we get there (in Heaven) with Him)...

And that is His choice (and His prerogative) , and I believe this is so we will proceed as if we have (a/or) choice/choices, even if we really do not... Even Christ and YHWH were subject to this by the Father God...

God Bless!

 

[Billy Evmur]

But He does tell us we were slaves...

what part of slavery spells freewill?

 

[Neogaia777]

But He does tell us we were slaves...

what part of slavery spells freewill?

We have to choose to be his slaves or servants, (submit ourselves to Him (God)) (which includes submitting ourselves to others or one another) anyway, for He does not want any unwilling ones...

But the Father already knows those who will choose this and those who will not, for he made them (us) each all that way, from the beginning...

So, does that mean we really have "choice"...?

God Bless!

 

[Billy Evmur]

We have to choose to be his slaves or servants, (submit ourselves to Him (God)) (which includes submitting ourselves to others or one another) anyway, for He does not want any unwilling ones...

But the Father already knows those who will choose this and those who will not, for he made them (us) each all that way, from the beginning...

So, does that mean we really have "choice"...?

God Bless!

Hi.

Adam [and we in Adam] had a choice, we did not choose wisely

We chose bondage instead of freedom
sin instead of righteousness
death instead of life

We have no more choice...unless God is merciful and gives us on.

Praise God He is merciful. Before we can choose He must set us free.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hi.

Adam [and we in Adam] had a choice, we did not choose wisely

We chose bondage instead of freedom
sin instead of righteousness
death instead of life

We have no more choice...unless God is merciful and gives us on.

Praise God He is merciful. Before we can choose He must set us free.

And he has, cause that's what Christ came to do, to re-institute that choice and make a way for (finding it, I guess you could say, or walking in it maybe), a way to give us all and each one who believes in him that choice again...

But as to whether even this is, or ever even ever was, a "true choice" or not, only the Father can say or know or tell us... But, the fact that He (and only He) already knew "all" from the very beginning or from before the beginning, begs the question of whether or not we really ever had or "actually do have any choice in any of it" at all...

But/and, as I said in post #661 at the top of this page, we have no choice but to proceed as if we have, or had, a "choice"... Because there just is "no other choice" but to do it that way...

Cause God is not going to tell us how or what to choose with every single choice, even though He knows (and many will not even ask him to do this anyway, and even if they did, I still don't think he would, not with every single choice anyway) so, we must proceed, and have no other choice but to act as if we have choice, even if we really do not, cause there is no other choice...

God Bless!

 

[SwordmanJr]

It's not symantics at all, YOU say you have freewill but you can only choose what is offered to you, you are not even free to not choose.

By way of my free will, I willed to answer with this reply. I could have willed to ignore your posts, but I instead willed to do so, and so here it is. My choice of words was made possible only because I willed to respond.....freely.

 

[BCsenior]

I am not a robot either, neither was Chief Sitting Bull but he "of his own freewill" could not be saved, nor [as David says in his posts] could those Pharisees, for God closed their eyes and stopped up their ears.

Listen, pal, I've said many times that man has
absolutely NO free will to choose Jesus and His gospel.
Have you been paying attention, or are you (censored)?

P.S. It's a real pain havin' to repeat the same information
over & over again but I guess it's the nature of the beast.

 

[BCsenior]

But He does tell us we were slaves...
what part of slavery spells freewill?

Okay, man, you're proving who you are!
Slaves have ALL KINDS of free will in their lives!
This is ridiculous and beyond belief.
Beware: You're on the brink of ...
no one paying any attention to you at all.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

What need the cross? why did Christ have to die?

If we had freewill He could just teach us and we could of our own supposed freewill obey Him.

That has nothing to do with it. It is directly because we have free will (Adam and Eve did when they ate of the tree in the garden)...and in the garden Yeshua said, "not my will but yours"

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The soul that sinneth it shall die...that is God's will.

Peter is writing to YOUward ...

No, that is the consequence of free will...

 

[Neogaia777]

The problem is, how can we have free will and God still be totally 100% omniscient from the very beginning or before the beginning of all things...?

That's the problem...

Did I make a free will decision to say, post this right now...? I mean, I might not have done so, right...? Wasn't that "my choice", or my decision...?

Or was there millions to billions (or more), "pre-cursors" or "pre-existing conditions" that caused me to either do, or decide so, or not decide so...? Chemical/biological precursors, and/or reactions or factors going on within me (in my mind/brain and/or heart/feelings) that dictated that decision, or any and all decisions...? Or not...?

And if it is, or if it were, basically, making my decisions for me, would not God know all of it/that, from way, way long before that, all the way back to the beginning of all and time, the universe, ect... Or not...?

It may seem on the surface that we are making decisions for and of and from ourselves, but, is that "really the case" or not...?

God Bless!

 

[Billy Evmur]

And the prodigal son came home cos he was hungry...that also is predetermination at work.

...he also remembered a father's love.

 

[Neogaia777]

The problem is, how can we have free will and God still be totally 100% omniscient from the very beginning or before the beginning of all things...?

That's the problem...

Did I make a free will decision to say, post this right now...? I mean, I might not have done so, right...? Wasn't that "my choice", or my decision...?

Or was there millions to billions (or more), "pre-cursors" or "pre-existing conditions" that caused me to either do, or decide so, or not decide so...? Chemical/biological precursors, and/or reactions or factors going on within me (in my mind/brain and/or heart/feelings) that dictated that decision, or any and all decisions...? Or not...?

And if it is, or if it were, basically, making my decisions for me, would not God know all of it/that, from way, way long before that, all the way back to the beginning of all and time, the universe, ect... Or not...?

It may seem on the surface that we are making decisions for and of and from ourselves, but, is that "really the case" or not...?

God Bless!

Now, I was (or maybe still am, IDK?) trying, or was trying to "break free" from all of "this", cause something about me or in me just doesn't like the idea at all... Of being "predictable by anyone", including God... (just being honest)...

But I don't know if that is possible or not...? I've even (in the past) tried to do things, and sometimes some not very good things (for me), "on purpose" to "prove it" (that I was free from and not a part of all of "this") back when God (or a god), was trying to show me that he clearly and fully "could" and did know everything about me, all my decisions/feeling/choices/actions ect... And, that "struggle" cause me all kinds of hell and/or problems and took me down some roads I never wished I would have went down at all in the first place...

But God has clearly shown me he already knew about it all, all those choices and decisions I was making just to try and prove that it was me, and that I actually was making free-will choices and decisions, when he showed me clearly that I was just "not"...

Now, maybe it was "rebellion", but "something about me" just doesn't like the idea at all, even if it's only just God, or a god, and or the "god's" or angels...

I've been able to eliminate things from my past, childhood, past hurts, past issues, past baggage, ect, from having much, if any "influence" on me (or my choices and decisions now) (I think)... But "current" thoughts dictated by feelings/emotions, and millions to billions of precursor chemical reactions and biological and environmental factors within me, that affect me from within me, that do influence greatly all of my thoughts/feelings/emotions/actions/reactions, ect, that each and all greatly influence, and possibly all dictate, all of my decisions, choices, ect, and other "following it/that (just mentioned) actions/reactions ect, in the "now", that I don't think I am completely free of yet, (it/that/those) and I wonder if I will ever be free of it/them...

I have found out God knows them (all) and can and does "predict" them all, like a mathematical formula/equation/program, ect... He knows "it/them all" and can fully predict it/them all...

One of my friends was telling me how he thought he didn't belong here, cause he said he wasn't a part of this world, which/and he also mentioned, and I mentioned to him, was like the "Matrix" (He's a big fan of the Matrix movies)... And I told him, that I hated to say it (cause I know he still has a lot of issues from his past and childhood, especially his Dad that he lives with, that go back to early childhood)...

Anyway, I told him that I didn't want to say it, but I told him he was still very much a part of the "Matrix" or this world... And told him if he wanted to "get free" (of it/that/this), he was going to have to (cause he's getting set up with a counselor now) that he was going to have to go all the way back to his early childhood, and seek to understand himself through it or by it, and everything leading or that led up to "now' or this point in his life, he was going to have to back, maybe starting at "all the way back" (as a starting point) and "resolve" (or solve) all of his "past issues/baggage" before he even ever got close to being free from the "Matrix" and/or being a part of this world, or it's system...

And I told him, because, just like in the movie, he was still letting and allowing the world, and/or "Matrix"; that he was still allowing "it" to tell him, or dictate to him, or still greatly influence "who he was or is or are", and/or how he acted and/or behaved, ect...

I told him that up to now, he was still stuck in it and was very much still a part of it... But told him that a counselor, or his counselor that he was getting set up with, could or should be able to help him greatly with that...

He didn't like it, but I don't think he could deny it either...

And I see so very many people still stuck in it, and as much as "even I" have tried to get free of it, or break free of it, I am still "not completely free of it" yet... And although I don't allow any of the past to influence me very much at all or very much anymore, there was still the "present" and my environment around me, and "current" things I might feel, and/or "all the chemical and biological factors" going on withing me, and my mind and heart and in my body (or my flesh) was still a problem, as I had to admit, it still influences me sometimes, and still influences me greatly sometimes...

Why do I want to be "completely free of all of it", even to the point where maybe even God doesn't know, or doesn't suspect, or doesn't know what I'm going to do, or not do, in this or that moment next, ect...

I don't know, it's just some kind of "undefinable something" in me... I just hope it's not rebellion...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[The Gryphon]

Free Will = salvation by works.

Well Dave, I have found something else we are directly opposed on. I can see there is no point in discussing it so we will just agree to disagree once again.

 

[Neogaia777]

Now, I was (or maybe still am, IDK?) trying, or was trying to "break free" from all of "this", cause something about me or in me just doesn't like the idea at all... Of being "predictable by anyone", including God... (just being honest)...

But I don't know if that is possible or not...? I've even (in the past) tried to do things, and sometimes some not very good things (for me), "on purpose" to "prove it" (that I was free from and not a part of all of "this") back when God (or a god), was trying to show me that he clearly and fully "could" and did know everything about me, all my decisions/feeling/choices/actions ect... And, that "struggle" cause me all kinds of hell and/or problems and took me down some roads I never wished I would have went down at all in the first place...

But God has clearly shown me he already knew about it all, all those choices and decisions I was making just to try and prove that it was me, and that I actually was making free-will choices and decisions, when he showed me clearly that I was just "not"...

Now, maybe it was "rebellion", but "something about me" just doesn't like the idea at all, even if it's only just God, or a god, and or the "god's" or angels...

I've been able to eliminate things from my past, childhood, past hurts, past issues, past baggage, ect, from having much, if any "influence" on me (or my choices and decisions now) (I think)... But "current" thoughts dictated by feelings/emotions, and millions to billions of precursor chemical reactions and biological and environmental factors within me, that affect me from within me, that do influence greatly all of my thoughts/feelings/emotions/actions/reactions, ect, that each and all greatly influence, and possibly all dictate, all of my decisions, choices, ect, and other "following it/that (just mentioned) actions/reactions ect, in the "now", that I don't think I am completely free of yet, (it/that/those) and I wonder if I will ever be free of it/them...

I have found out God knows them (all) and can and does "predict" them all, like a mathematical formula/equation/program, ect... He knows "it/them all" and can fully predict it/them all...

One of my friends was telling me how he thought he didn't belong here, cause he said he wasn't a part of this world, which/and he also mentioned, and I mentioned to him, was like the "Matrix" (He's a big fan of the Matrix movies)... And I told him, that I hated to say it (cause I know he still has a lot of issues from his past and childhood, especially his Dad that he lives with, that go back to early childhood)...

Anyway, I told him that I didn't want to say it, but I told him he was still very much a part of the "Matrix" or this world... And told him if he wanted to "get free" (of it/that/this), he was going to have to (cause he's getting set up with a counselor now) that he was going to have to go all the way back to his early childhood, and seek to understand himself through it or by it, and everything leading or that led up to "now' or this point in his life, he was going to have to back, maybe starting at "all the way back" (as a starting point) and "resolve" (or solve) all of his "past issues/baggage" before he even ever got close to being free from the "Matrix" and/or being a part of this world, or it's system...

And I told him, because, just like in the movie, he was still letting and allowing the world, and/or "Matrix"; that he was still allowing "it" to tell him, or dictate to him, or still greatly influence "who he was or is or are", and/or how he acted and/or behaved, ect...

I told him that up to now, he was still stuck in it and was very much still a part of it... But told him that a counselor, or his counselor that he was getting set up with, could or should be able to help him greatly with that...

He didn't like it, but I don't think he could deny it either...

And I see so very many people still stuck in it, and as much as "even I" have tried to get free of it, or break free of it, I am still "not completely free of it" yet... And although I don't allow any of the past to influence me very much at all or very much anymore, there was still the "present" and my environment around me, and "current" things I might feel, and/or "all the chemical and biological factors" going on withing me, and my mind and heart and in my body (or my flesh) was still a problem, as I had to admit, it still influences me sometimes, and still influences me greatly sometimes...

Why do I want to be "completely free of all of it", even to the point where maybe even God doesn't know, or doesn't suspect, or doesn't know what I'm going to do, or not do, in this or that moment next, ect...

I don't know, it's just some kind of "undefinable something" in me... I just hope it's not rebellion...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Many, many times in my life, at times, and nearly every single day for a while, it's like either God, or a god (and that's part of my problem still to this day) Anyway, it's like God, or a god, was showing me or trying to tell me that, basically, "I knew you were gonna be right here, right now, to be, or do, or see, "this or that", anyway "I (He, God, or a god) knew you were gonna be right here, right now, and arranged, and orchestrated, and fully knew, "it all" from before the beginning of time"...

He/it did this many, many, many, multiples upon multiples times throughout my life, starting for at about age 30 to now (40 now)...

And, like I said, for a while there, every single day to multiple times a day, throughout my life, that He (God, or a god) was showing me He knew all this, not only before I was even born, but from before the very beginning of time even... and "arranged" it all for me or you, or for me and you, from even way, way, way before then, or those points along my way where He was going to show me he did arrange or orchestrate "this or that", and/or "all of it" and fully knew "all of all about it" (basically) from before the beginning (of time)...

It was very, very scary at first, cause I didn't know "what to think" or what who/him or he/it was or is, and while that is still kind of problem today, it is not nearly as much of a problem as it used to be...

Anyway, regardless to say, I've "seen some things", many things...

Done some things to... "Experienced some things", that not very many people ever get to see and/or experience in their life or lives...

God Bless!

 

[SwordmanJr]

The problem is, how can we have free will and God still be totally 100% omniscient from the very beginning or before the beginning of all things...?

That's the problem...

How is it a violation of God's omniscience/sovereignty for Him to sovereignly give to us the freedom to choose on the basis of our "will" to either follow or walk away from Him? This discussion seems to be more a matter of semantics than it is about God giving and taking and/or withholding whatsoever He wishes.

Did I make a free will decision to say, post this right now...? I mean, I might not have done so, right...? Wasn't that "my choice", or my decision...?

I can say that I "will" do something, and then later change my "will" based upon a set of constructs that made it more expedient to not follow through with my initial "will" for the accomplishment. I can also "will" to address those constructs that otherwise might have gotten in the way of what I had initially "willed" to do.

Oh, yes. I've seen some of those "scientific" videos on Youtube where they claim that there is no free will within mankind because of all the synaptic and environmental realities over which we have no control. What they failed to address is when we attack those realities that get in the way of our "will", make changes to what we can, and ultimately accomplish what we had "willed" to do initially. The game of tit for tat is an endless game in semantics that can be played....well, endlessly....always casting about hypotheticals of this and that, all leading to nowhere, and each party remaining unconvinced, entrenched in their beliefs, and unwilling to budge.

God said that He wills that all men come to Him rather than perish, for He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Being THE Sovereign, He could accomplish His "will", but because of the end result He has purposed to see through, He set aside His "will" that none should perish, for most of mankind is going to end up in the pits of Hell regardless of the "will" of God in that regard.

Additionally, we are not only physical beings, so the pseudo-science and pseudo-theology that ignores our being what we actually are in relation to having free will, they continue making all manner of errors in their analysis.

The bottom line is that, unless one is prepared to declare God unjust for the eternal punishment of unbelievers, all indicators point to the fact that in spite of all the pseudo-science and pseudo-thological argumentation against free will to choose, there remains in that haystack the one stalk that unravels all the nonsense and provides order to the whole mess. There is punishment because there is the freedom to will with or against the Lord. I see no violation for the Lord to Sovereignly give to mankind the freedom to will with or against His offer for salvation.